U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

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I realize that-as i said...Sasha was heavily rewarded for her flexibility. But it was like flexibility was the only skill that mattered. Look what happened to poor Caroline Zhang. Her horrible mule kick was visible when she was winning competitions by 30 points. How was that not addressed, regardless if she was winning by that much? Did her coaches really think she was going to stay 4'5 and 75 pounds? To me, that shows there was really no long term vision for her. I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been to go from "The Next Michelle Kwan" to ending up 19th at nationals a few years later and never making a World Team or the Olympics. Mirai never really reached her potential either.

Agreed.

Although, having watched some events where most of the field struggle even with the double axel, maybe Mirai and Caroline did indeed reach their physical and competitive potential, but not our personal expectations for them.
 
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I think this is less about skaters focusing on flexibility and more about the judging of IJS competition: Junior competitors are often rewarded greatly for landing difficult jumps and doing difficult things consistently regardless of quality or the artistry of the skater. We also see skaters in Seniors get rewarded similarly for being consistent and doing difficult things without the PCS to back it up, but there are also more skaters with good PCS in Seniors making it harder to win solely on consistency.
It's why the US Ladies did so well in Juniors pre-2010 and why the Eteri girls are now dominating Juniors (and Seniors) only for both groups to have difficulty with sticking power: you can win with shoddy technique and poor skating skills when young, but when you get older winning that way gets a lot harder because the judges. This may be because your technique doesn't hold well through adulthood and you become inconsistent leading the consistency/difficulty boost to decrease (Caroline, Ashley, Mirai, Alina Zagitova), you become less consistent/confident/oblivious to competition pressure (Mirai, Evgenia Medvedeva, Alina), your life priorities change (Rachel Flatt, Christina Gao, Evgenia), injuries or health problems pile up (Caroline, Julia Lipnitskaya, and countless others), the financial strain is too much (Agnes Zawadski), the lack of artistry/skating skills becomes apparent enough to affect your scores, or something else happens.
 
Just got the January issue of Skating magazine and it has a "Where Are They Now?" article about Sydne Vogel.

Some will recall that Sydne was 1995 U.S. Junior champion, 1997 World Junior champion--and a rival of Tara Lipinski. (Her senior career never really took off.)

The article says that Sydne skated on cruise ships for a few years after retiring, took some online classes, and decided she wanted to become a doctor! Now 39, she is an attending ER physician at a hospital in South Carolina. She married a fellow Alaskan, Jeff McKechnie, and together they have children Iona Rose, 3, and Angus, 1. Jeff is currently a stay-at-home dad.

Nice to hear that Sydne is doing so well!
 
Karen has WD from nationals. I'm crushed but a little relieved she's not risking re injuring herself.

ITA and I hope we see her again!

This doesn't change the picture too much for us ladies. I still think, or maybe I'm just hoping, that the world team will be Brady and Mariah.
 
I have heard this before, that it is somehow motivating to be the kid left out, not told or shown they are special. All I can say is that in my many, many years watching skating practices from learn to skate to elite, at many clubs in North America and abroad, I can assure you I have never seen nor heard of that being the case. There probably are some kids it works for but I have seen many, many examples of kids whose success far exceeds their work ethic and skill and in every case they have been made to feel incredibly special by coaches spending extra time and emotional energy on them, by indirectly or directly putting down or holding back other skaters to make their special more special, and by blaming others (judges, choreographers etc) for any bad skates. This approach seems to be extremely common and probably happens in other sports as well. (I have heard that it happens in soccer and ballet but have not seen it first hand.)

The big tell is that if not being the special one actually made you a better skater, we would see coaches making their special ones compete for time and attention. The fact is, they don’t, so clearly coaches disagree with you.

I think the problem is that unless you are around coaches and skaters day in and day out, and involved in the workings of the training centre or club, you would not be aware of what is happening.

Finally, whether you are bringing up kids, training animals, or training elite athletes, most of the current research shows that a positive environment that is rewards based rather than punishment based gets the best long term results.

I would imagine a child does need to be special, and I may not be around a skating rink. However, I must say I cannot help thinking being taught that your performance doesn't matter and it's all everyone else's fault and I am not responsible for my bad skates. I'm not sure how that's going to make a champion. You may get some success, but a champion?

Say what you will about Eteri, but it's clear that the special kid with her is the kid who performs well. Very clear. And when she sees mistakes, she calls them.

I think there is a balance and you need to be encouraged but I don’t think good coaching is putting down other kids who perform better.
 
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I am glad that Mirai ended (most likely) her career on a high note with an Olympic medal and a 3A, then went on to perform in DWTS. But I also believe she never reached her potential. Going back to 2010 Worlds where she was 1st after the SP, she was a clean 2A away from a Worlds bronze medal (would’ve BTW allowed 3 US ladies to go to 2011 Worlds). She was also a proper layback away from a GP gold in France the next season. She also would’ve made the 2011 team if those first two events occurred in that way, probably ahead of Flatt if she hadn’t stepped out of a 2A and did a proper combo spin, and her 2011 4CC score would’ve given her another Worlds bronze. Not saying that would have happened that way exactly, but she would’ve been in a fight for another world medal if she was hitting those earlier comps, giving her loads more confidence . By 2012, Sochi, and all thereafter, her career may have been on a much different trajectory
 
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I can't imagine she will be there. She must know that. I hope she withdraws sooner rather than later, if that is what she intends.

Why does it matter when she withdraws, if she even does? She isn't taking anyone's spot.

As far as Vincent, that whole message seems a bit confusing, but English is not his 1st language. I'm trying to not read too much into any of it. Nice 3sal though.
 
That sure sounds like Gold isn't going to compete at Nationals, but we shall see.

:watch:

I can't imagine she will be there. She must know that. I hope she withdraws sooner rather than later, if that is what she intends.

It may be better for her to WD, as far as next season goes. If she places too low, she’ll lose her place in the International Selection Pool, correct? Or does the USFS use other criteria for that?
 
Why does it matter when she withdraws, if she even does? She isn't taking anyone's spot.

As far as Vincent, that whole message seems a bit confusing, but English is not his 1st language. I'm trying to not read too much into any of it. Nice 3sal though.
If you were planning to go to Nats based on seeing your favorite skater live..........you would want to know sooner rather than later. And I am not talking about the price you paid for your ticket. There is the travel, hotel, taking time off work, set things up for while you are going to be gone............you would rather know sooner so you would be able to re-consider your plan. Make sure it is still worth it to you.

If a skater knows they are not going, what is the point of waiting to announce that you won't be there?
 
If you were planning to go to Nats based on seeing your favorite skater live..........you would want to know sooner rather than later. And I am not talking about the price you paid for your ticket. There is the travel, hotel, taking time off work, set things up for while you are going to be gone............you would rather know sooner so you would be able to re-consider your plan. Make sure it is still worth it to you.

Are there really people out there that do all that for one skater? Seems so silly. There are usually so many cheaper ways to see that skater besides going to Nationals. IMO if someone cannot enjoy Nationals for the competition it ends up being, with or without Skater X, then I am just sad for them, and they are just not smart with their money, because there is always a semi-decent chance that anyone could get injured at any time.

There's no reason for Gracie to withdraw if she is not injured and wants to compete.
 
I would go for one skater or team. Would I have enjoyed others? Sure, so don't be sad.

I went to Worlds in LA - Yu-Na was so amazing, it was worth the money and the trip. I have to say, though, Worlds is an extreme sport. Practice, Comp.....I was exhausted. Most of my family is in LA (or was then). Question: Could we have dinner? Um NO! There is skating to be watched.

But if I had a chance to see Sui/Han live....count me in.....Medvedeva - you better believe it.

BTW - just an aside. I passed Scott Hamilton in the hall (on the way to the ladies/gentleman's). I looked at him and was able to eloquently tell him how much joy his skating and spirit meant to me...in just three words: OH MY G-D. He laughed.

It is all choosing. And who is there is a large part of how I would chose.

Not to say that if I won the Lottery I wouldn't buy an RV and go to every Senior Competition I could. And park the dang thing so I could fly to see the rest. (My sister - who doesn't even follow FS - wants to come along on this fantasy life).
 
It may be better for her to WD, as far as next season goes. If she places too low, she’ll lose her place in the International Selection Pool, correct? Or does the USFS use other criteria for that?

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand:

Gold was named to the 2018-19 reserve team and the International Selection Pool because she was offered a comeback skater invitation to a GP event. That's an ISU program and only applies once, so she won't have another invitation by that means.

As far as I know, the only way she'd be named to the 2019-20 ISP would be by competing successfully, either at Nationals or at a monitoring competition in the summer. The definition of "successfully" might be somewhat flexible, but not competing at all wouldn't get her any assignments.
 
Why does it matter when she withdraws, if she even does? She isn't taking anyone's spot.

As far as Vincent, that whole message seems a bit confusing, but English is not his 1st language. I'm trying to not read too much into any of it. Nice 3sal though.

That was my thought, too...that English is not Vincent’s first language. The “next season” can be what’s coming up (Detroit Nationals).
 
I took keep pushing in the last few weeks as saying she is at least going to show up. She doesn't have minimums , so maybe he means from this international season to next international season.
 
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As far as Vincent, that whole message seems a bit confusing, but English is not his 1st language. I'm trying to not read too much into any of it. Nice 3sal though.
That was my thought, too...that English is not Vincent’s first language. The “next season” can be what’s coming up (Detroit Nationals).
In French, "La prochaine saison" does not mean "later this month (Detroit Nationals)."
ok.. since we're playing language puzzles, i want to take a shot too. this is what i did. i read other Vincent's posts, to get a feel of how he uses "colloquial english" compared to same phrases in "colloquial french". Then took his post to Gracie that is in english, and tried it in french, what would make sense. Came up with several "retour", which is a noun "return" or a colloquial for "comeback" and not "revenir" which is a verb "to return". Then i took it back to english.

So, the original is this...
I know what you went through the last 2 years and to see you building your way back is inspirational, since Russia you are a totally different athlete and that shows me that next season you will be back ! Keep pushing like you have been doing in the last few weeks and you will get what you want the most .

and my take of what he is saying is this..
I know what you went through in the last 2 years and to see you working on your comeback (return) is inspirational, since Russia you are a totally different athlete and that shows me that next season you will return (to your former self/form)! Keep pushing like you have been doing in the last few weeks and you will reach your goal.

I don't think he is saying "you will not skate now, and will return next season". He is not addressing "now", he is only address next season, that he expects her by then to fully return to norm.
 
I took keep pushing in the last few weeks as saying she is at least going to show up. She doesn't have minimums , so maybe he means from this international season to next international season.
That's what it sounded like to me, but I suppose we'll see soon enough.
 
If Gracie withdraws (I truly hope not, if she feels ready, go Gracie!) and now that Karen withdrew (get well soon💪🏻💪🏻), will they be replaced?
 
@olympic except you have to then apply similar positive changes in circumstance to all her competitors. I think Mirai has had a great career. She should be proud of all she has accomplished.

Well, it's just fantasy and really, there are no rules to it. I chose to focus on Mirai
 
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