U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[becca]

I think there are a number of different questions, which don't necessarily have the same answer:

What could coaches do, at the grassroots level in hundreds of small rinks around the country, to develop skaters who have the basic techniques needed to move on to elite training?

What could elite coaches at training centers do to develop successful competitors starting from beginner levels for those lucky enough to live nearby when they start young or at middle levels when they decide to relocate or commit to long commutes, to develop elite competitors?

How can training for elite competition, and for recreational skating including competition, be made more affordable, accessible, and attractive to more potential skaters, especially those with skating-advantageous physical gifts?

What can US Figure Skating do to encourage coaches to develop these kinds of programs? (Given the fact that USFS has never directly overseen coaches or training methods and is not in a position to do so even if their membership and the PSA membership thought it would be a good idea if they did.)

It’s difficult to know but perhaps funding programs?

 

[gkelly]

It’s difficult to know but perhaps funding programs?

Where would the money come from? How would it be distributed?

 

[becca]

Where would the money come from? How would it be distributed?

True. I am just surprised that some aren’t developing more group skating approach just because it would make sport more affordable.

 

[Spun Silver]

Where would the money come from? How would it be distributed?

It is amazing how money can materialize when there is a well established need and an inspiring, convincing vision for addressing it. I speak as a former fundraiser and executive director. My professional life changed when a consultant asked me what I would do with a million dollars. That was an unthinkable sum for the tiny, ever-struggling anti-poverty group I ran, but the question made me think big. I was then, with guidance, able to raise, if not a million, close to half that, while uplifting the organization's sights, capacity and work in ways that have lasted almost 20 years (long after I left). I imagine good fundraising consultants do that for struggling groups like mine every day. Maybe USFS needs one.

 

[gkelly]

It's not primarily a question of how to raise the money. The first step would be figuring out what to raise the money for.

I'm going to start a brainstorming thread later tonight, just for fun.

 

[Spun Silver]

It's not primarily a question of how to raise the money. The first step would be figuring out what to raise the money for.

Agreed. It takes a vision to raise the money.

 

[becca]

Agreed. It takes a vision to raise the money.

It's not primarily a question of how to raise the money. The first step would be figuring out what to raise the money for.

I'm going to start a brainstorming thread later tonight, just for fun.

Yep but I think too part of understanding would be we give money we get a say on how it is spend and how training money is spent.

But it seems like many US coaches are talking about benefits group coaching so no one doesn’t see benefits.

 

[mag]

True. I am just surprised that some aren’t developing more group skating approach just because it would make sport more affordable.

There have been rinks in my area that have tired a group approach. It is a disaster. It works in Russia because only those who keep up with the group are allowed to continue. There is no avenue for late bloomers and no place for those who will not be successful. It is a completely different outlook and one that would be unacceptable in North America. Because of that, all the skaters stay, and those who are not chosen at a young age to be special get less attention and their parents end up subsidizing the special ones. Because talent ID is basically a random crap shoot at the early stages, parents are not interested in subsidizing other people’s kids to the detriment of their own when all they get for it is to have their child bullied in the change room.

It all sounds good, but coaches are human, and the need make some kids special by making other kids not is just too strong a drive in many. Couple that with the inability to admit when you are backing the wrong horse, and it leads to terrible rink environments.

 

[LarrySK8]

Is there any Gracie Gold info or update?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Personally I think one of the US figure skatings biggest problems is not doing enough to develop good coaches. That is where Russia is ahead.

Honestly, My thought for the last 10+ years is that many former skaters and others dont want to make it a life long career anymore like they once did. Almost all skaters go to college now instead of going directly to coaching, whereas I think in Russia and some other countries a career as a life long each seems more desirable.

This has been my thought for a while now and this is what I see of American culture.

 

[OlieRow]

There have been rinks in my area that have tired a group approach. It is a disaster. It works in Russia because only those who keep up with the group are allowed to continue. There is no avenue for late bloomers and no place for those who will not be successful. It is a completely different outlook and one that would be unacceptable in North America. Because of that, all the skaters stay, and those who are not chosen at a young age to be special get less attention and their parents end up subsidizing the special ones. Because talent ID is basically a random crap shoot at the early stages, parents are not interested in subsidizing other people’s kids to the detriment of their own when all they get for it is to have their child bullied in the change room.

It all sounds good, but coaches are human, and the need make some kids special by making other kids not is just too strong a drive in many. Couple that with the inability to admit when you are backing the wrong horse, and it leads to terrible rink environments.

My understanding was that the Wheaton dance program has a group approach. Not sure if that's changed now that their "original" athletes have come up the ranks and are now seniors. If so, they've been very successful in dance so something similar could work in other disciplines.

 

[concorde]

Honestly, My thought for the last 10+ years is that many former skaters and others dont want to make it a life long career anymore like they once did. Almost all skaters go to college now instead of going directly to coaching, whereas I think in Russia and some other countries a career as a life long each seems more desirable.

This has been my thought for a while now and this is what I see of American culture.

The only time elite skaters could really earn a good living was in the period immediately following "the whack." Before and after that, elite skaters could earn a living but it was more through occasional shows and teaching (translation - lots of hard work).

I also think the US attitude towards what people expect in a career has changed over time. I think today young people want a less physical, salaried job with benefits (ie health insurance) rather than a glamorous but physically taxing job where income is based on the whim of skater parents.

 

[Tinami Amori]

There have been rinks in my area that have tired a group approach. It is a disaster. It works in Russia because only those who keep up with the group are allowed to continue. There is no avenue for late bloomers and no place for those who will not be successful. It is a completely different outlook and one that would be unacceptable in North America.

You got it wrong. In Russia now, and even in "soviet days" anyone could take skating lessons, paid skating lessons, private or in a group. Yet the most talented and perspective would be transferred to better coaches, and become part of development programme. But any person in Russia, any age, any talent, can pay and take lessons, in any amount and form that they want. They can then try to qualify for local competitions and move up, based on results. The rinks are full of skaters and private lessons coaches. Those who have talent make it to the top.

Also with today's tech content, late bloomers (depending on what you mean by "late") would not be able to break the high scores required to make the national team.

 

[becca]

There have been rinks in my area that have tired a group approach. It is a disaster. It works in Russia because only those who keep up with the group are allowed to continue. There is no avenue for late bloomers and no place for those who will not be successful. It is a completely different outlook and one that would be unacceptable in North America. Because of that, all the skaters stay, and those who are not chosen at a young age to be special get less attention and their parents end up subsidizing the special ones. Because talent ID is basically a random crap shoot at the early stages, parents are not interested in subsidizing other people’s kids to the detriment of their own when all they get for it is to have their child bullied in the change room.

It all sounds good, but coaches are human, and the need make some kids special by making other kids not is just too strong a drive in many. Couple that with the inability to admit when you are backing the wrong horse, and it leads to terrible rink environments.

I don't know, I know though that sometimes as a kid not being the favorite or the special one actually motivated me to do better. Be. Better. And in general I have taken that approach. Why is my boss praising this employee, are they doing something I can do.
Sometimes not being the special one can actually make you better.

 

[gkelly]

My understanding was that the Wheaton dance program has a group approach. Not sure if that's changed now that their "original" athletes have come up the ranks and are now seniors. If so, they've been very successful in dance so something similar could work in other disciplines.

It might inspire other coaches to set up similar academy-style programs. I know of some that offer an hour or a few hours of group instruction per week in this kind of setting.

I don't know whether any rely entirely on group instruction. Or individual attention during a group ice time where everyone is paying the same but it's up to the coach how much attention they give to each skater each day.

A mix of private and group instruction would probably be good for skaters who are on an elite track and want a lot of feedback and direction/instruction without paying for a lot of private lessons. They will still need some private lessons to address their personal technical issues in detail and certainly to create their programs.

Group instruction could also be good for young skaters who aren't mature enough or self-motivated enough yet to practice efficiently on their own so they can get more ice time on which they can be productive without paying for private instruction every time they're on the ice.

 

[analia]

In some US gymnastics clubs things are very serious. Most girls in the "elite program" are home schooled and practice all day, with one or two elite coaches watching the whole group most of the time. This seems not to be the case with figure skating. Is it because gyms are usually owned by the coaches but skating rinks are not? The argument that group lessons don't work don't make sense as it is done in most sports/music/dance etc. Only in figure skating a coach is expected to be there for only a short amount of time and is paid by an hourly rate. The business model naturally leads to good coaches taking a lot of low level skaters instead of one or two high level ones.

 

[Edgecase]

Nashville actually hosted a really great Synchro sectionals about 10 or 11 years back, but IIRC they didn't have a good arena. Maybe for Nationals they'd be willing to pay for a Hockey arena. Maybe with Kori and Scott there it would help, but it seemed a lot of the skaters there were hockey. I do remember there were a lot of pair's teams in that area at that time somehow...

Nashville also hosted US Nationals in 1997. It was back in the days when the championship ladies events were filled to capacity (17,000 or so). I believe the venue was Nashville Arena.

 

[Carolla5501]

Nashville also hosted US Nationals in 1997. It was back in the days when the championship ladies events were filled to capacity (17,000 or so). I believe the venue was Nashville Arena.

It was the same arena as the Bridgestone. I think it was called the Gaylord Entertainment Center then

 

[mag]

I don't know, I know though that sometimes as a kid not being the favorite or the special one actually motivated me to do better. Be. Better. And in general I have taken that approach. Why is my boss praising this employee, are they doing something I can do.
Sometimes not being the special one can actually make you better.

I have heard this before, that it is somehow motivating to be the kid left out, not told or shown they are special. All I can say is that in my many, many years watching skating practices from learn to skate to elite, at many clubs in North America and abroad, I can assure you I have never seen nor heard of that being the case. There probably are some kids it works for but I have seen many, many examples of kids whose success far exceeds their work ethic and skill and in every case they have been made to feel incredibly special by coaches spending extra time and emotional energy on them, by indirectly or directly putting down or holding back other skaters to make their special more special, and by blaming others (judges, choreographers etc) for any bad skates. This approach seems to be extremely common and probably happens in other sports as well. (I have heard that it happens in soccer and ballet but have not seen it first hand.)

The big tell is that if not being the special one actually made you a better skater, we would see coaches making their special ones compete for time and attention. The fact is, they don’t, so clearly coaches disagree with you.

I think the problem is that unless you are around coaches and skaters day in and day out, and involved in the workings of the training centre or club, you would not be aware of what is happening.

Finally, whether you are bringing up kids, training animals, or training elite athletes, most of the current research shows that a positive environment that is rewards based rather than punishment based gets the best long term results.

 

[Vagabond]

Is there any Gracie Gold info or update?

Who?

 

[aml78]

Is there any Gracie Gold info or update?

I haven’t heard anything. It’s been radio. Silent. Some pics popped up of her teaching a seminar again. But no training updates. I imagine we will know more very soon given we are getting closer to nationals.

 

[Frida80]

Is there any Gracie Gold info or update?

I think her coach just posted an instagram story with her in it. I can't. E sure, but he does say private ice time with the Queen as a blonde woman skates past.

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ Yes, it looked like Gracie but we can't see her jumping.

ETA:

It's not primarily a question of how to raise the money. The first step would be figuring out what to raise the money for.

I'm going to start a brainstorming thread later tonight, just for fun.

Thanks! Link to the new thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/hypothetical-us-skating-development-changes.105050/

 

[Sylvia]

Starr Andrews article: http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2019/jan/03/starr-andrews-ready-big-time/

On Ice Perspectives' Jordan Cowan filmed Starr at her rink at the end of December and the link to his video clip(s) of her will be posted here when it appears.

 

[UGG]

Regarding the US Ladies... I noticed after the 2006 Olympics all the young skaters (mirai, Caroline etc...) seemed more concerned with flexibility moves vs actual skating skills. I felt like a lot of skaters wanted to be the next Sasha Cohen who was always rewarded for her flexibility moves that no one else could do. And she had a really bad flutz that she was really never penalized for. It seemed like after Sasha retired we had all these girls who could bend backwards and touch their noses to the back of their legs however after they grew, their careers were kind of busts.

 

[Willin]

@UGG To be fair to them, when they were coming up through IJS there was still a spiral sequence element that required a lot of flexibility. In spins the I/Y, donut, and bielman positions (along with the highly regrettable A-frame for men) were all in vogue during that time, and all require flexibility. For technical reasons or to be in vogue, back then it made sense for skaters to be overly flexible and the US ladies were hardly the only skaters doing it.

 

[VGThuy]

Every so often, the ISU does things to the IJS that majorly changes what's heavily rewarded and what's not that it heavily impacts the course of so many careers. The lesson learned for coaches should have been to make sure skaters are well-rounded and try not to give a reason for callers/judges to dock points. In other words, not let things like technique slide just because you think your skater has a cushion elsewhere, even if your skater is trying to push the envelope with 3A and quads. What makes Eteri skaters so strong is that despite whatever we can critique them on, her skaters are nearly IJS-proof (maybe a flutz) in that there's nothing in the system to really deduct from them in terms of TES and her skaters continue to progress with every generation to make the next skater more IJS proof than the last. I think that sort of preparedness helps immensely with the mental aspect of competing. How many American ladies skaters skate seemingly clean programs and then all of us just wait for the TES to drop by the time the scores are announced? That has to mess with a skater's mind since that sort of thing is not an easy fix as evidenced by many examples and should have been addressed much earlier on.

 

[UGG]

@UGG To be fair to them, when they were coming up through IJS there was still a spiral sequence element that required a lot of flexibility. In spins the I/Y, donut, and bielman positions (along with the highly regrettable A-frame for men) were all in vogue during that time, and all require flexibility. For technical reasons or to be in vogue, back then it made sense for skaters to be overly flexible and the US ladies were hardly the only skaters doing it.

I realize that-as i said...Sasha was heavily rewarded for her flexibility. But it was like flexibility was the only skill that mattered. Look what happened to poor Caroline Zhang. Her horrible mule kick was visible when she was winning competitions by 30 points. How was that not addressed, regardless if she was winning by that much? Did her coaches really think she was going to stay 4'5 and 75 pounds? To me, that shows there was really no long term vision for her. I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been to go from "The Next Michelle Kwan" to ending up 19th at nationals a few years later and never making a World Team or the Olympics. Mirai never really reached her potential either.

 

[Dobre]

It was never and has never been as though flexibility was the only thing that mattered. There was certainly a huge leap in the number of U.S. ladies with flexibility in 2010-2014. But those athletes came up through the ranks together after the rules began rewarding flexibility. That generation of ladies always had to compete against each other. What that meant, ultimately, was that an athlete that only had flexibility was going to finish at the bottom at senior Nationals. Flexibility would never have gotten a U.S. lady onto the team by itself.

 

[Spun Silver]

Mirai didn't place 4th in the Vancouver Olympics just for being flexible.