U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

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Carolla5501

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Sports fans always run a risk when buying a ticket if it's only to see X. For example, recent attendees at Laker's games who "only bought to see LeBron James" Opps… pulled muscle out of for a few weeks. Skating is no different. It's a sport and we have all seen the sad story of the skater who gets injured 2 days before Nationals or during the short or whatever....

That's a huge risk with any sport and fans should realize it. Yes, there was probably a greater than average chance Gracie would not make the event but.... tomorrow it could be someone else announcing an injury. (Not using a name, I don't want to jinx anyone :) )
 

overedge

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Stop name calling. Support is not always here is a blanket just sit I'm the corner here while we make you feel special.

Support for Gracie would have been telling her...and not allowing her (hello USFSA) not to compete when she was in no shape to compete

This is someone who is fragile
Someone who had to take a vacay at a facility where she could get help for a myriad of issues. Whoever allowed or supported Gracie stepping on that ice in Russia was not looking out for Gracie.
Wow, another contender for Most Insensitive Post!

If you think going to a residential program for help with issues is a "vacay", then you really shouldn't be commenting on those issues. Because clearly you know nothing about what they are like.
 

Yazmeen

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I absolutely abhor the mindset of some skaters blaming their athletic failure on "mental problems." This shouldn't be encouraged as it doesn't do anyone any good. That being said, Gold or Karen Chen can do what they want as far as withdrawing goes. I don't know what the big deal is. It's really no different from any skater withdrawing from any competition.
Wow, you must be the emotionally perfect human being ever put on the planet. Thank you SO much for deigning to grace up with your masterful presence. (Bow, scrape, bow, scrape...).
 

Yazmeen

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Sports fans always run a risk when buying a ticket if it's only to see X. For example, recent attendees at Laker's games who "only bought to see LeBron James" Opps… pulled muscle out of for a few weeks. Skating is no different. It's a sport and we have all seen the sad story of the skater who gets injured 2 days before Nationals or during the short or whatever....

That's a huge risk with any sport and fans should realize it. Yes, there was probably a greater than average chance Gracie would not make the event but.... tomorrow it could be someone else announcing an injury. (Not using a name, I don't want to jinx anyone :) )
Not to take the conversation away from sports, but I've seen folks pitch fits at Broadway shows because they got the understudy for the star. But in that case, you can sometimes exchange tickets - DH and I recently did that for a show with Idina Menzel where she got called out for a family emergency.
 

Wyliefan

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It's always a risk. I got tickets to see Anna Netrebko in Tosca at the Met last spring -- and she was out sick. I was super disappointed. But I knew the risk when I bought the tickets. (And at least it was still Tosca at the Met!)
 

Tinami Amori

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Skating is a sport and it's all important to its participants. The fearless tend to thrive but those w/ fear hold themselves back. It is up to the athlete to listen and find that path. No one can force it on them. We just all have to be patient and wait for them to do so.
Absolutely right. Nobody can force it, or should, on them, it is their path. But, in some cases, when they tell the story of their troubles, to the public, on their own and willingly, it is a fair subject to judge and to discuss. The trend lately is to take athlete's words for granted, see their side of the story only, accuse others, and not to examine enough what has the athlete might have done wrong, or should have done differently to avoid the problems, or to do better. Athletes also need to be held accountable for the problems they end up with, when it is applicable.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I sort of fail to understand why non-fans of athletes should care so much to challenge these athletes and feel it's their duty to hold them accountable for things that don't really affect them nor has it really harmed anybody else. Like I get this a discussion board so I get wanting to express a disagreement or to share your take on what a skater says, but I don't think it's this grand mission to undertake where it's so crucial to challenge skaters and catch them in contradictions or whatever.
 

Tinami Amori

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.... but I don't think it's this grand mission to undertake where it's so crucial to challenge skaters and catch them in contradictions or whatever.
If they chose to make their issues public, it is expect that the "issue and their story that comes with it" will be discussed.

It is not something recent. i took a note of very supporting comments when Maria Butyrskaya packed her bag and left the 2002 Worlds championship right after not doing well in SP, and did not bother to inform her coach, just left for the airport. I felt what she did is horrible and irresponsible and rude to the coach and the Federation. But then it was considered "not compassionate" towards the skater. I believe that in many cases we read/hear about that are out in public, skaters carry a large doze of responsibility in the problems they have.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I believe that in many cases we read/hear about that are out in public, skaters carry a large doze of responsibility in the problems they have.
That may be true. In the end, they are facing the consequences or "problems" as you stated of their actions and nobody else. I don't mind the discussion or anything because lord knows I've expressed my annoyance of skaters' behaviors before. But why not just express it and move on. Usually, whatever wrong that the skater did affected them and lasted for a competition or a season. It's their career and their life so they will be dealing with whatever downfall that happens. Why keep dwelling on it and make it a campaign to make people see how "badly" the skater behaved?
 

Tinami Amori

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Why keep dwelling on it and make it a campaign to make people see how "badly" the skater behaved?
In opposition that the sentiment that "skaters can do no wrong", when something in their lives/skating does not go in the right direction or if there is a problem. (pendulum swinging in other direction.. :lol:)
 

Sylvia

Not yet ready for club comp. season to be underway
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2018-19 scores (will add more skaters' scores later):

* = ISU Season Best score

Bradie Tennell:
71.50* (1) 130.91 (1) 202.41 (1) CS Golden Spin of Zagreb (December 2018)
61.34 (6) 136.44 (2) 197.78 (3) GP France
61.72 (5) 131.17 (4) 192.89 (4) GP Skate America
69.26 (2) 137.15* (1) 206.41* (1) CS Autumn Classic Int'l
126.86 (FS only, 4th) Japan Open invitational
76.77 (SP) 145.86 (FS) 222.63 (Total) DuPage Open club competition (August 2018)

Mariah Bell:
67.82 (4) 128.78 (3) 196.60 (3) CS Golden Spin (December 2018)
62.97 (7) 135.99* (4) 198.96* (5) GP NHK Trophy
63.35 (5) 126.90 (4) 190.25 (4) GP Skate Canada
70.02* (4) 118.95 (6) 188.97 (4) CS Nebelhorn Trophy
120.57 (FS only, 6th) Japan Open invitational (early October 2018)

Ting Cui:
67.56 (2) 132.23* (2) 199.79* (2) CS Talinn Trophy senior int'l debut (November 2018)
62.10 (1) 119.09 (1) 181.19 (1) Eastern Sectional
70.20* (2) 102.54 (7) 172.74 (7) JGP Ostrava CZE
53.25 (6) 102.79 (5) 156.04 (5) JGP Linz AUT
66.78 (1) 120.02 (2) 186.80 (2) Glacier Falls Summer Classic
56.32 (2) 89.44 (6) 145.76 (6) Broadmoor Open (late June 2018)

Alysa Liu:
74.94 (1) 138.03 (1) 212.97 (1) Pacific Coast Sectional (November 2018)
63.21 (1) 122.87 (1) 186.08 (1) Central Pacific Regional (October)
60.76 (SP) 120.03 (FS) 180.79 (Total) Skate St Moritz club comp. (September)
50.25 SP (1) 88.20 (1) 138.45 (1) Adv. Novice international at Asian Open Trophy (early August)
63.60 (3) 129.57 (1) 193.17 (1) Glacier Falls Summer Classic (late July)
71.00 (1) 127.25 (1) 198.25 (1) Broadmoor Open (late June)
67.66 (SP) 130.91 (FS) 198.57 (Total) Southern Calif. Interclub Comp. (mid-June)
70.87 (SP) 124.00 (FS) 194.87 (Total) Central Calif. Interclub Comp. (early June 2018)
(Note: I only have scores for 5 club comps.)
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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In opposition that the sentiment that "skaters can do no wrong", when something in their lives/skating does not go in the right direction or if there is a problem. (pendulum swinging in other direction.. :lol:)
I don't think anybody has ever said that nor do most people think skaters can do no wrong and if they did I'm sure other people challenged it or offered their different opinion on the matter. I think what I'm trying to say is why does it sound so personal for you and why does it come off as you feeling compelled to make the skater recognized the gravity of her wrong that you perceive she committed? It kind of goes beyond just saying so and so skater should have done this, or her actions here are what caused this and she should reevaluate things beyond blaming everyone else but herself, and I dislike that her fans on social media buy into that. That's why I said it sounds like you're on a mission.
 

AxelAnnie

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We can definitely have a discussion about complaints for unimportant reasons. I am a vet myself, and I see whiners at work and in every day life. I wonder to myself: "How the hell would they have survived WW2 rationing or even combat."

But, soldiers returned from many wars with psychological problems: After WWI, it was labeled shell-shock, later, it was called PTSD after Vietnam. So, they were tough on the outside but I imagine so many more than we can imagine suffered greatly on the inside, but never let anyone know about it. Nevertheless, it probably manifested itself in alcoholism, abuse, etc. because no one talked back then. Noble but damaging.

Skating is a sport and it's all important to its participants. The fearless tend to thrive but those w/ fear hold themselves back. It is up to the athlete to listen and find that path. No one can force it on them. We just all have to be patient and wait for them to do so.
Probably the same as in most sports. My hardest thing in riding is that I know to make the distance down a line of fences I have to carry enough speed............and the thing you really don't want to do is go faster!

What you said is so true.
 

just tuned in

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You’re right, not directly. But then this is what happens sometimes. A skater is experiencing a “hardship” of some kind; he/she advertises the issue from his/her perspective. The issue is about “some advantage” which a given skater either lost, or never had, or could not manage. The sympathies is always with “the skater”. Nobody questions the skater’s tactics and way of life, to see if he/she did something wrong, or could have done something differently. He/she gets immediate “sympathy” without examination for the causes… maybe “the skater” did something wrong. Then through various stages the “issue” is posed against those who “do not have the same issue” or have “natural advantages”. Then the conversation starts “how can we hold back those with advantages, to make sure that those with problems have a level playing field”. It is not direct, but it is happening, not just in skating but in society.



I have not posted on FSU for almost a week, because of real life/business related issues. In those issues there were deadlines, contracts, numbers, criteria, performance and results. Totally different mind set where people are held accountable and must fulfill their obligations NO MATTER WHAT MOOD they are in, if they did or not gain 5 pounds, if they feel blue or pink or purple, or bad or good, or whatever…. And here I come to FSU, and there we have it, another sob story for Gracie (and prior to that for many other skaters from all countries).

This whole issue with “mental problems” ever since I came to USA in the mid 70’s, seemed like a bad Woody Allen movie. Every time someone feels bad, inadequate, sulky, disappointed, confused the issue of therapist, sociologist, psychologist, psychoanalyst, etc., comes up…. Instead of picking up a shovel and doing some digging in their back yard, or going for a jog, people start digging into their “feeeeeeeelings” and “emoooootions” like in a pile of their own excrements looking for micro-worms.

Millions of soldiers returned home injured after WWII, and they did not sulk or had a chance to feel depressed. They had to find work to support their families. All the killings and horror they witnessed did not affect their need to survive, without legs, arms and other defects.

My grandfather’s brother, came out of a concentration camp, ended up with is own business in South Africa, 5 years later. He told me stories about people in his barracks, people of SAME age. Some just remained on their bunker-bed, depressed, did not get to eat, or to work, and they were shot. And others, in the SAME situation, treasured every hour of life, picked up those bricks and those shovels, even if it was forced labor, but every move they made was a “gift” and a symbol “we’re alive”, and every minute of hardship was a gift of life as well, because they were alive and knew what they had to do to live another hour.



If Gracie was responsible enough, she would not have gone to Russia in the condition she was in. Then after Russia, she would have announced that she is not skating at Nationals. It is impossible to lose the weight and regain basic condition required in 2-3 months. I do believe it is possible to do by next season, but anyone with her experience should have known that Nationals are not likely.

It’s all the “talk on social media” and “politically correct messages” that partially pushed her to think that “it’s ok as it is”.



Social media is used as a campaign tactic. Fans bashing other skaters does happen. But like I said above, given other social trends in societies, it ends up being a “wave of opinion” and starts conversations “how can we disable the able ones”. Like with quads, Nathan Chen, 3A for Alysa, age issues with Eteri’s girls, and overhauling of judging system to reduce the value of difficult elements.

You know.... as much as i do not like Buianova, what she did with Kovtun WORKED! lose weight, practice more, cut social media, and get your gear in order, OR YOU'RE OUT. Now he is a National Champion.

Western civilization is getting too soft and unfair to those who are willing to work harder than others. It's a problem.
Thank you for the story of survival.
 

Japanfan

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This is someone who is fragile
Someone who had to take a vacay at a facility where she could get help for a myriad of issues. Whoever allowed or supported Gracie stepping on that ice in Russia was not looking out for Gracie.
Just because someone has mental health issues does not mean they are 'fragile'. In saying so, you suggest that mental health is simply a matter of strength versus weakness, in which case a person can deal with mental illness simply by 'bucking up'. That view has long been discredited, and does a disservice to mental illness.

And as pointed out previously, going to a facility to get treated for mental illness is by no means a 'vacay'.
 

Japanfan

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This whole issue with “mental problems” ever since I came to USA in the mid 70’s, seemed like a bad Woody Allen movie. Every time someone feels bad, inadequate, sulky, disappointed, confused the issue of therapist, sociologist, psychologist, psychoanalyst, etc., comes up…. Instead of picking up a shovel and doing some digging in their back yard, or going for a jog, people start digging into their “feeeeeeeelings” and “emoooootions” like in a pile of their own excrements looking for micro-worms.
Actually there is still a strong stigma against mental illness in western societies. This is particularly so, but not limited to, minority groups. For example, I edited a paper about the stigma against mental illness in an East Asian Canadian community.

Millions of soldiers returned home injured after WWII, and they did not sulk or had a chance to feel depressed. They had to find work to support their families. All the killings and horror they witnessed did not affect their need to survive, without legs, arms and other defects.
After WWII there was a push to move forward, particularly in middle class/suburban American society.

IIRC Earnest Hemingway wrote about the silencing of men who had fought in WWII, and the damage it did.

My dad was in the Air Force, and he rarely talked about the horrors of the war, only about good things - like the kindness of families in the Shetland Islands (where he was stationed) who invited Canadian soldiers over for Sunday roast.

Even so, men suffered from shell shock in WWII as in all other wars. Some probably did become very depressed, and among those, some would have suffered in silence, others would have dropped out of society, and yet others would have drowned their horrors in booze. Legions were busy places in the post-WWII America/Canada. There was one in the northern Canadian town I grew up in, and getting sloshed on Saturday nights was a common pasttime for town residents, and the men among them were predominantly WWII vets.

There are always people (women as well a men in some cases) who don't recover from the horrors of war. And I believe that it true everywhere in the world.

My grandfather’s brother, came out of a concentration camp, ended up with is own business in South Africa, 5 years later. He told me stories about people in his barracks, people of SAME age. Some just remained on their bunker-bed, depressed, did not get to eat, or to work, and they were shot. And others, in the SAME situation, treasured every hour of life, picked up those bricks and those shovels, even if it was forced labor, but every move they made was a “gift” and a symbol “we’re alive”, and every minute of hardship was a gift of life as well, because they were alive and knew what they had to do to live another hour.
Not everyone is cut from the same cloth.

If Gracie was responsible enough, she would not have gone to Russia in the condition she was in. Then after Russia, she would have announced that she is not skating at Nationals. It is impossible to lose the weight and regain basic condition required in 2-3 months. I do believe it is possible to do by next season, but anyone with her experience should have known that Nationals are not likely.
Conversely, competing in Russia may have been a responsible decision from the viewpoint of Gracie's responsibility to herself as a athlete aiming to move forward. That is, she may have felt that she owed it to herself at least to try.

Plenty of skaters try to compete when they are not in top condition, it's nothing unusual. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But challenging oneself is part of being an athlete.
 
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eusebius

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It's always a risk. I got tickets to see Anna Netrebko in Tosca at the Met last spring -- and she was out sick. I was super disappointed. But I knew the risk when I bought the tickets. (And at least it was still Tosca at the Met!)
You can also be delightfully surprised. I was hoping to hear Sonya Yoncheva as Tatiana in Paris last year - instead I heard the Australian soprano Nicole Car and now I'm convinced she is destined for stardom. (She made her Met debut as Mimi in September.) Very off-topic, but the point is that you can always witness a starmaking moment, at skating competitions as well!
 

AxelAnnie

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Just because someone has mental health issues does not mean they are 'fragile'. In saying so, you suggest that mental health is simply a matter of strength versus weakness, in which case a person can deal with mental illness simply by 'bucking up'. That view has long been discredited, and does a disservice to mental illness.

And as pointed out previously, going to a facility to get treated for mental illness is by no means a 'vacay'.
Well that is an interesting interpretation. My grand daughter whom I adore, has in the last few years been in and out of several in patient and out patient facilities. The last few years have seen one suicide attempt that almost killed her, two trips to Mayo, tons of meds and therapies. Believe me....she is fragile. And I do not at all think she is weak. She is one of the strongest people I know.............and she is fragile. There are things she tries to do (like get a job) and she is great for a bit, and then takes a down turn.

I know fragile. It has to do with not taking on situations that you are not emotionally ready for. And it is hard, because you think you are ready, and you aren't. You want to be ready, but you aren't. You crumble under pressure that most of us would would think is silly and non demanding.

I am certainly not saying Gracie is not strong, or not capable. Only that she is vulnerable. She may or may not ever return to who she was (Gracie Gold the golden girl). Or she may. She needs help and guidance, and I would assume the least amount of pressure.

I just hope (Rather than her skating in Russia) she takes building steps. It will be hard. Tiny Tiny. Steps that she can succeed at.
 

Japanfan

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I know fragile. It has to do with not taking on situations that you are not emotionally ready for. And it is hard, because you think you are ready, and you aren't. You want to be ready, but you aren't. You crumble under pressure that most of us would would think is silly and non demanding.
OTOH, people who suffer from mental issues and/or mental/physical disabilities may be tougher than the average person, because they have to put up a fight to do things that the average person takes for granted.

I am certainly not saying Gracie is not strong, or not capable. Only that she is vulnerable. She may or may not ever return to who she was (Gracie Gold the golden girl). Or she may. She needs help and guidance, and I would assume the least amount of pressure.
People do fully recover from mental illnesses or disorders and eating disorders.

Grace may recover, and no longer be vulnerable to those conditions.

Time really helps with healing. Even if Gracie chooses not to compete any more, it doesn't mean that she's not well. To the contrary, being well may mean that she has realized she does not thrive on competition.
 

Finsta

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Why would any sane person compare figure skating to war? Deeply disturbing. Leave young girls alone or Get mental health for yourself.
 

DimaToe

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It is not at all surprising but this thread has seriously derailed. It’s alright to not be all knowing y’all, but it seems at this point that this thread is all about “I know more than you” rather than...well... the U.S. ladies...
 

Jammers

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Nationals this year is going to be the first time in many years, dating back to Kwan-Cohen, where the pecking order is pretty set: There are only 3 ladies with a realistic shot at Worlds. That eliminates some of the whiplash and excitement from the last decade, though. OTOH, it might allow the top ladies some breathing space and concentration on their programs, maybe just maybe leading to great performances.
Not sure about that. From 2013-16 Ashley and Gracie were a guarantee to finish on the podium and were far and above the best two US Ladies. In those 4 years it was like Kwan vs Sasha.
 

Frau Muller

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Any updates on Poojah’s training? Has she gained speed and attack since fall?
 

olympic

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Not sure about that. From 2013-16 Ashley and Gracie were a guarantee to finish on the podium and were far and above the best two US Ladies. In those 4 years it was like Kwan vs Sasha.
I don't think Ashley and Gracie were 15-20 points ahead of their closest competition like Bradie and Mariah are this year, were they?
 

Erin

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I don't think Ashley and Gracie were 15-20 points ahead of their closest competition like Bradie and Mariah are this year, were they?
Just curious, are you excluding Ting and Alysa from Bradie and Mariah’s competition? Granted, Ting only has one score in the range of Bradie and Mariah’s scores and Alysa’s scores are all domestic, but I don’t see it quite as clear cut as this.
 

Sylvia

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Re-posting from earlier in this thread (thanks for compiling. @toddlj!):
IMHO we have 4 clear medal frontrunners. (Tennell, Bell, Cui, Liu.) Bubbling under the surface are 6 others who could potentially challenge for the pewter (Lin, Hicks, Andrews, Wessenberg, Glenn, Harrell.) As for Chen... who knows.

Here are the top 15 seasons best US ladies:
9 - 206.41 Bradie TENNELL USA ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2018 21.09.2018
17 - 199.79 Ting CUI USA ISU CS Tallinn Trophy 2018 29.11.2018
18 - 198.96 Mariah BELL USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2018 10.11.2018
37 - 181.21 Ashley LIN USA ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2018 28.09.2018
41 - 178.07 Courtney HICKS USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2018 10.11.2018
47 - 174.72 Starr ANDREWS USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2018 27.10.2018
56 - 170.33 Megan WESSENBERG USA ISU GP Skate America 2018 21.10.2018
**59 - 166.25 Amber GLENN USA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2018 14.09.2018
67 - 160.99 Angela WANG USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2018 07.10.2018
69 - 160.60 Pooja KALYAN USA ISU JGP Bratislava 2018 25.08.2018
*71 - 159.86 Gabriella IZZO USA ISU JGP Canada 2018 14.09.2018 (*competing Junior at Nats)
**76 - 157.08 Hanna HARRELL USA ISU JGP Armenian Cup 2018 12.10.2018
*81 - 154.56 Katie MCBEATH USA ISU CS 26th Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2018 22.09.2018 (*DNQ for Nats)
**105 - 143.07 Akari NAKAHARA USA ISU CS US International FS Classic 2018 15.09.2018
**107 - 141.61 Brynne MCISAAC USA ISU CS US International FS Classic 2018 15.09.2018

**Ladies from the above on an upward trajectory:
Amber Glenn's sectional score was 184.63 [won Mids]
Hanna Harrell's sectional score was 173.05 [2nd at Mids]
Akari Nakahara's sectionals score was 169.06 [2nd at Pacs]
Brynne McIsaac's sectional score was 161.73 [3rd at Pacs]

In addition, a few ladies not mentioned above might be competitive here:
Alysa Liu (sectionals score 212.97)
 
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