U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[wickedwitch]

Why would Carroll claim that Kwan went behind his back if she did not do so?

Because it’s a great story and according to some, the truth shouldn’t stand in the way of a good story.

That said, I think this story is true.

 

[MrMystery]

I don't believe a coaches signature was required on a test app back in '92/'93. Also, Danny Kwan was always bit of "Skate Dad," so if you don't think he would go behind Carroll's back and have Michelle test, think again.

I also disagree that Kwan would have gone pro if she had won in '98. Michelle was always a very driven and competitive skater, even when she did get older and have more distractions and did a brief sting at UCLA, etc., she always managed to land on the podium and I think her drive was always pretty apparent. I think maybe we wouldn't have seen her past '02 if she had won there, but I'm happy we did, while she was at the end of her career and some of her programs were watered down, some of her most passionate and impactful performances came in '03 and '04.

 

[Spun Silver]

I was not a big Kwan fan but I have a belated appreciation of her now and follow her on Instagram. Her absolute love of skating as well as her competitive nature come across loud and clear. These are posts from the last two weeks:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrNwQKZlrFW/
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqxz4WCFNI6/
I honestly think she would still be competing if she thought she could win.

 

[Sylvia]

Hannah Miller wrote an update after she qualified for 2019 Nationals (this will be her 7th consecutive trip at the Senior level and she is currently balancing college with skating): http://figureskatersonline.com/hannahmiller/main/counting-down-to-detroit/

 

[Debbie S]

I guess I missed this but it sounds like Hannah is back with her coach/aunt in Michigan? I remember she was in CA for a while. Sounds like she has a great balance in her life and getting to enjoy the full college experience. Good for her.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Kwan. Who moved up to compete at the senior level before even her coach wanted her to.

I'm still suspicious of that story... most clubs require a coach's signature on a test form.

I remember reading this story, just after 2002 Olympics, in an interview, but do not remember who gave it, seems now it was Frank, who sounded upset about being dismissed: that the club's form required either coach's or parental signature. M. Kwan took the form, signed it herself with her father's signature, and it became known after she took the test. (i am quite sure it would be hard to find this article fr '02 now).

 

[concorde]

I remember reading this story, just after 2002 Olympics, in an interview, but do not remember who gave it, seems now it was Frank, who sounded upset about being dismissed: that the club's form required either coach's or parental signature. M. Kwan took the form, signed it herself with her father's signature, and it became known after she took the test. (i am quite sure it would be hard to find this article fr '02 now).

I remember hearing the TV commentators telling that story at Nationals the year of the "the whack" (1994).

 

[UGG]

I have never met a skater who would choose a long career over Olympic or World gold and a short career. Fans may like skaters who stick around, but skaters are pretty much in it for as many titles as they can get as quickly as possible.

I do think it is funny when people put Kwan in the long career group. She stuck around, IMHO, not because she wanted a long career but in the search for Olympic gold. Had she won in 98 I highly doubt she would have still been competing in 02.

Well...she did have a long career and was capable of a long career even if she had retired after 1998. Tara would not have made it past like 1999 because of her injuries, had she won silver. And we saw what happened to Sarah after 2002. So regardless of what we “think” she she would have done, she was overall capeable of a long successful career whereas others such as Tara and Sara were not.

 

[Karen-W]

Yes, the story was well-known by 1994. MK tested up during the summer of 1992 and competed as a senior at 1993 Nationals. I want to say that I even recall hearing the anecdote during the '93 Nationals broadcast because her 6th place finish was pretty impressive for such a young skater. If not, the story was definitely out there by '94 Nationals where she finished 2nd to Tonya Harding. I've never had any reason to doubt the veracity of the story, especially since it has been public knowledge since her first or second season in seniors.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I remember hearing the TV commentators telling that story at Nationals the year of the "the whack" (1994).

Yes, the story was well-known by 1994. MK tested up during the summer of 1992 and competed as a senior at 1993 Nationals. I want to say that I even recall hearing the anecdote during the '93 Nationals broadcast because her 6th place finish was pretty impressive for such a young skater. If not, the story was definitely out there by '94 Nationals where she finished 2nd to Tonya Harding. I've never had any reason to doubt the veracity of the story, especially since it has been public knowledge since her first or second season in seniors.

You're in the minority... Most fans like to deny that "their favorite" did something sneaky or illegal, or find excuses that it is ok, because...

 

[Vagabond]

Yes, the story was well-known by 1994. MK tested up during the summer of 1992 and competed as a senior at 1993 Nationals. I want to say that I even recall hearing the anecdote during the '93 Nationals broadcast because her 6th place finish was pretty impressive for such a young skater. If not, the story was definitely out there by '94 Nationals where she finished 2nd to Tonya Harding. I've never had any reason to doubt the veracity of the story, especially since it has been public knowledge since her first or second season in seniors.

Seeking a Perfect 6 at a Precocious 12

The figure-skating coach went to a coaches convention in Canada. Where was the harm in that?

But when Frank Carroll returned last May from his week in Ottawa, he found that his 12-year-old protege, Michelle Kwan, had conspired with her father against him. In Carroll's absence, Kwan had taken the skating test to qualify for seniors competitition. Not surprisingly, she had passed.

The original Kwanspiracy.

IIRC, I started this thread to foster discussion of current U.S. Ladies skaters.

 

[Karen-W]

You're in the minority... Most fans like to deny that "their favorite" did something sneaky or illegal, or find excuses that it is ok, because...

LOL! Well, I would hardly call Kwan my "favorite" from that era. I appreciated her talent but my US ladies uber-fandom during the mid-90s was for Nicole Bobek, and then in the 99-02 cycle for Sarah Hughes. Now, I will say I could have cared less that MK went behind Frank's back to test up and compete in seniors, just like I had no problem with Sarah Hughes using the loophole that allowed Jr Worlds medalists to compete at Sr Worlds before she was age-eligible (and I would have been fine had Sasha Cohen been able to utilize the same loophole the next year). I think that's one of the reasons why I don't mind seeing young skaters like Alysa Liu or the Russian girls or Japanese girls pushing to compete as early as they can. The most successful skaters have always been the ones with a killer competitive instinct. That has been sorely lacking in our US ladies in the last decade.

 

[VGThuy]

You're in the minority... Most fans like to deny that "their favorite" did something sneaky or illegal, or find excuses that it is ok, because...

What are you talking about? Michelle Kwan and Frank are the ones who mentioned that story and were the ones who admitted it was true. The only reason some people doubt it is because they think Kwan and Frank were pushing a "fake" story to give her some sort of PR so if anything those who are "denying" it would be more like you thinking Kwan is sneaky or did something "illegal" for no reason but they want to think of her in that way. Of course some who are wondering about the story were confused because they have their own experiences taking senior tests and didn't realize when Kwan took hers she didn't need a coach's signature.

 

[concorde]

You're in the minority... Most fans like to deny that "their favorite" did something sneaky or illegal, or find excuses that it is ok, because...

Actually it is a combination of an interesting story plus me being good at useless trivia.

Michelle is a unique case in her "staying" power. But back than, there was more focus on aesthetics and less on fully rotated jumps. Now fully rotated jumps are key and those are hard to maintain long term.

 

[UGG]

You're in the minority... Most fans like to deny that "their favorite" did something sneaky or illegal, or find excuses that it is ok, because...

I am pretty sure none of her fans care at this point. If she took the test without Frank’s knowledge it obviously did not harm her career lol. Like another poster said, the only “denial” I have ever heard was from people who thought the story was fake and made up to get more buzz around Michelle at that time.

 

[all_empty]

One of the great what-ifs of skating is if Lipinski stayed in one or two years longer.

I know given her hip injuries that her body wouldn't have held up -- pretty scary for a 15/16 year old.

I suspect Bobek may have stayed for a year or two as well, but she would be No. 3 to Kwan and Lipinski, and possibly behind Nikidinov (who was two years away from her artistic breakthrough).

With Kwan and Lipinski 1 and 2 (in either order), Nam probably wouldn't have earned her fluke silver. Hughes might have still been grandfathered into Worlds. Within a year's time, she'd be pushing Lipinski technically. And of course, let's not forget skaters like Cohen and Kirk.

American ladies had such depth in the late '90s and early '00s. And they all had such different styles and strengths, which we're seeing in Russia now.

Ironically, that was when Russia was pretty strong as well, with veterans Slutskaya and Butyrskaya, along with Volchkova.

Things got really rough for them after 2004, when they fielded skaters like Doronina and Basova. Then came Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva who really carried the program while their juniors developed.

Wagner and Gold fulfilled those roles, but the U.S. has really struggled to develop their juniors like Russia has. Hopefully skaters like Cui and Liu will change that.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Hopefully skaters like Cui and Liu will change that.

Agreed. Japan's and Russia's incredible depth in the ladies' event is indicating that soon, to have a shot at the podium, it may no longer be enough to skate a clean event with three triples in the short, and seven triples in the free skate, either.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Could we maybe take the KwanChat elsewhere and keep this thread to discussing current US skaters?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Because it’s a great story and according to some, the truth shouldn’t stand in the way of a good story.

That said, I think this story is true.

I wonder, if Kwan had stayed one more year in juniors as Carroll had wanted, whether her career would have had the same trajectory? Meaning, 1994 would probably have been her first year at US Senior Nationals, instead of 1993. Michelle may not have even been in the running as the Olympic alternate, and had the same kind of media attention, either.

 

[Willin]

It's great to hear that Hannah's doing a Sports Psychology major. I hope she'll be able to help skaters to perform at their best. I wonder if she's planning to go into coaching or something else?

 

[Frida80]

I wonder, if Kwan had stayed one more year in juniors as Carroll had wanted, whether her career would have had the same trajectory? Meaning, 1994 would probably have been her first year at US Senior Nationals, instead of 1993. Michelle may not have even been in the running as the Olympic alternate, and had the same kind of media attention, either.

It would've changed a lot. Michelle went to Worlds and placed eighth ensuring the US has two spots. She got her US silver that year, after placing 8th the previous year. If she didn't have some senior experience, she may not have made the podium in 1994. That was critical because the next time she went to Worlds next year, she would finish just off podium even though she landed eight triples. This loss fueled her into developing herself artistically, thus becoming the Michelle Kwan that would dominate for a decade.

If she didn't go to Worlds in 1995, she may not have had the moment that changed her so much.

 

[Dobre]

I'm sure the Michelle moving up story was during the Nationals TV broadcast. My imperfect memory thinks it was during a spotlight story about her during her first competition at Nationals. But I'm sure Michelle's fans remember more accurately. (I personally never had any of her early competitions on video tape). Maybe the story wasn't shared until the following year. In any case, she moved up to seniors quite young. There was media attention at a very young age. And she not only survived the experience. She now gets referenced as an example of a mature athlete. Everyone is young once. Many of the greats were once young phenoms, gaining attention and competitive scores by pushing the technical barrier and outjumping their peers. Michelle is a classic example.

So I do think this is relevant to the current discussion. And I do totally empathize with those who are ready to move forward again to discuss the athletes competing today.

 

[toddlj]

Getting excited for US Nationals... Let's look at how the contenders stack up!

IMHO we have 4 clear medal frontrunners. (Tennell, Bell, Cui, Liu.) Bubbling under the surface are 6 others who could potentially challenge for the pewter (Lin, Hicks, Andrews, Wessenberg, Glenn, Harrell.) As for Chen... who knows.

Here are the top 15 seasons best US ladies:
9 - 206.41 Bradie TENNELL USA ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2018 21.09.2018
17 - 199.79 Ting CUI USA ISU CS Tallinn Trophy 2018 29.11.2018
18 - 198.96 Mariah BELL USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2018 10.11.2018
37 - 181.21 Ashley LIN USA ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2018 28.09.2018
41 - 178.07 Courtney HICKS USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2018 10.11.2018
47 - 174.72 Starr ANDREWS USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2018 27.10.2018
56 - 170.33 Megan WESSENBERG USA ISU GP Skate America 2018 21.10.2018
**59 - 166.25 Amber GLENN USA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2018 14.09.2018
67 - 160.99 Angela WANG USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2018 07.10.2018
69 - 160.60 Pooja KALYAN USA ISU JGP Bratislava 2018 25.08.2018
*71 - 159.86 Gabriella IZZO USA ISU JGP Canada 2018 14.09.2018 (*competing Junior at Nats)
**76 - 157.08 Hanna HARRELL USA ISU JGP Armenian Cup 2018 12.10.2018
*81 - 154.56 Katie MCBEATH USA ISU CS 26th Ondrej Nepela Trophy 2018 22.09.2018 (*DNQ for Nats)
**105 - 143.07 Akari NAKAHARA USA ISU CS US International FS Classic 2018 15.09.2018
**107 - 141.61 Brynne MCISAAC USA ISU CS US International FS Classic 2018 15.09.2018

**Ladies from the above on an upward trajectory:
Amber Glenn's sectional score was 184.63
Hanna Harrell's sectional score was 173.05
Akari Nakahara's sectionals score was 169.06
Brynne McIsaac's sectional score was 161.73

In addition, a few ladies not mentioned above might be competitive here:
Alysa Liu (sectionals score 212.97)
Karen Chen (pending recovery)
Gracie Gold (pending readiness)
I suppose it's also possible Wagner or Nagasu competes, but it seems highly unlikely.

 

[MIsty Blades/Skate Mom]

Bradie could further improve her artistry, just like Michelle Kwan did with her "Salome" program in Fall 1995. Look at the change from 1995 World Free Skate to the 1995 Skate America program. The transformation over 7 months was amazing.

Bradie is definitely trying to improve her artistry. If the judges wanted to, they could reward the effort. PCS seems to be based on rep.

 

[WillyElliot]

Bradie could further improve her artistry, just like Michelle Kwan did with her "Salome" program in Fall 1995. Look at the change from 1995 World Free Skate to the 1995 Skate America program. The transformation over 7 months was amazing.

Her skating greatly matured during that time, but ALOT had to do with SkateDad Danny actually listening to advice about 'maturing' her look. He didn't want make-up or hair and liked her in a pink dress. Thankfully SD Danny took the advice. One wonders had she matured her look even the slightest (bun, barely there makeup) if she would have won 1995 Worlds in Birmingham. Her skating was small, but she brought down the house that night. And she would have been forever the youngest World champion for all of history.

 

[UGG]

Bradie could further improve her artistry, just like Michelle Kwan did with her "Salome" program in Fall 1995. Look at the change from 1995 World Free Skate to the 1995 Skate America program. The transformation over 7 months was amazing.

Isn’t Bradie 21? Michelle was 15...seems like a strange comparison.

I think Ashley Wagner would be a better example- in 2012 she really transformed to get her to that next level and she was an “older” skater who had been on the scene for 5 years. Bradie needs to take a page from her book.

 

[wickedwitch]

Isn’t Bradie 21? Michelle was 15...seems like a strange comparison.

I think Ashley Wagner would be a better example- in 2012 she really transformed to get her to that next level and she was an “older” skater who had been on the scene for 5 years. Bradie needs to take a page from her book.

Ashley was always an excellent performer, which, IMO, is Bradie's weakness.

 

[WillyElliot]

Ashley was always an excellent performer, which, IMO, is Bradie's weakness.

Ehhh, I disagree. Her 2010 program to what was it, Polovtsian Dances?, was underwhelming. Kwiatkowski 2.0. I suppose Ashley felt she had more in her than being Tonia2.0, and wouldn't you know it, John Nicks transformed her. I do think Bradie needs a John Nicks to just set her on the right path. She is thin and pretty and kinda sorta moves well. Someone can package that into a champion (and not just one who beats Mariah Bell).

 

[UGG]

Ashley was always an excellent performer, which, IMO, is Bradie's weakness.

I think Ashley had naturally more charisma than Bradie, but I would not call her a performer until later in her career

 

[Willin]

Yeah until the Black Swan program Ashley was really boring to watch. That program really revitalized both her career and her image on the ice. Even after that it took her some time to get as good at performing as she was by the Moulin Rouge era of programs.