U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[vesperholly]

When Medvedeva had lots of "faceography", people complained as well...

Nah. It was the miming that annoyed me

 

[Tinami Amori]

Nah. It was the miming that annoyed me

it is very easy to apply etymology and prove that "mime" and "faceography" have the same meaning

 

[Marco]

Nice to see Bradie and Mariah establishing themselves as the solid top 2 of the US, at least internationally on the senior level.

Interestingly, I think both of them have something to learn from each other. Mariah has wonderful pacing in her programs, shows wonderful arms and overall line, projects well and finishes her moves. Bradie can improve on these areas.

On the flip side, Mariah has only been attempting 6 triples and 2 2axels so far this season, without a 3sal at all. Bradie has been attempting 7 triples and 2 2axels which is much more in line with what is being done at the top internationally.

I keep losing track of when Alysa and Cui will be eligible for GPs and Worlds - I do know they will make it in time for the Olympic season. There is still much to work on for both of them, I esp worry that Alysa may face UR issues as she grows and moves to seniors.

 

[Spun Silver]

I watched Bradie's FS at GS hoping to see some of the improvement people are talking about. I just don't get it. She's a strong jumper but almost everything else is painful to watch, esp after watching the GPF and JGPF. I think what bugs me most about Bradie is her or her team's failure to understand what kind of skater she is. She is not Cinderella, she is not Juliet. She is not a 1930s or 50s movie star as her hair style suggests. She is not naturally dramatic nor is she physically eloquent with beautiful line. What she is is a no-frills, no-fuss modern American athlete, a tomboy, a technician. She has windmill arms and moves awkwardly. It is weird but telling that the only way her team could turn her into Juliet was to use the most martial parts of the music. She might as well skate to Alexander Nevsky! I don't think Benoît Richaud did her any favors with that angsty choreography (what little there is of it), but maybe he did the best he could since he couldn't turn her into Juliet.

IMO she should chop her hair off like Cheng Peng, throw away her fairy tale books, and do a Kill Bill program, or some other piece with a fast beat and no story line any deeper or more romantic than "fight for your life." Or go to Philip Mills and do whatever he tells her. Meanwhile she can take every kind of dance class she can find until she finds something that clicks with her so by 2020 she can actually develop some musicality and style worthy of the top US lady.

I know I sound negative but I'd just like to see what she could do with material that actually fits her, instead of insisting on playing all the famed heroines of story and stage. If she comes out with Swan Lake next season I'll take rat poison (and no, I don't promise).

 

[layman]

"I keep losing track of when Alysa and Cui will be eligible for GPs and Worlds - I do know they will make it in time for the Olympic season. There is still much to work on for both of them, I esp worry that Alysa may face UR issues as she grows and moves to seniors."

I worry too. She does not have much speed or power going into the jumps...very little spring...she just snaps the rotations right off the ice. This may work when you are 13 years old and tiny but once you start growing...well we have seen how much others with this kind of technique (Lipnitskaya, Zhang, Medvedeva...) have struggled with growth.

I question why skaters this young (this goes for the Russians too) are being pushed to do quads and 3 axels, when they have yet to master the basics of stroking and using the edges to gain power, speed and security.

 

[Debbie S]

I keep losing track of when Alysa and Cui will be eligible for GPs and Worlds - I do know they will make it in time for the Olympic season.

Ting is age-eligible for Worlds this season, although I would expect her to be assigned to Junior Worlds. Alysa is age-eligible for JGP/JW next season and will be eligible for Worlds/Olys in the next Oly (2021-2022) season.

 

[Tinami Amori]

She is not Cinderella, she is not Juliet. She is not a 1930s or 50s movie star as her hair style suggests.

She may not be Disney or Hollywood kind of Cinderella, which is good, since there are so many versions of this folk tale in many countries and continents, dating back to times of Egypt and ancient Greece. The better known 2 versions, by Bros. Grimm and C. Perrault, are taking place in "anglo-saxon rural territory", where young ladies were hardly "ballerinas". The original folk tale is "Ashputtel" (or Aschenputtel) and that's the image, before "hollywood screwed with it".
https://www.biography.com/.image/t_...sehold_tales_1914_printing_wikicommonsjpg.jpg
Bradie looked and acted the part just fine...
- https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cjt2gBpaL._SX311_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
- https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpr...9244.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=782&strip=all

She is not naturally dramatic nor is she physically eloquent with beautiful line. What she is is a no-frills, no-fuss modern American athlete, a tomboy, a technician. She has windmill arms and moves awkwardly. It is weird but telling that the only way her team could turn her into Juliet was to use the most martial parts of the music. She might as well skate to Alexander Nevsky!.

There is nothing wrong with using "martial segments" of the music, rittertanz is the best piece out of them all (imo). Again, there are several versions of Romeo/Juliette (Mont/Cap) legends going back to ancient history; in all of them Juliette is a rebel and a tomboy in her own times, and nobody said that a female skater must only choose the "sweet romantic female image" from the story or the script.

 

[snoopy]

Bradie with short hair? Oh no.

I think Bradie is doing just fine *for her*. I don’t think she could carry the tongue in cheek aspect of kill bill. I agree she is a no frills, steady eddy but her music choices actually fit that imo.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I agree she is a no frills

LOL, you guys are making her sound like an airline

 

[WillyElliot]

I worry too. She does not have much speed or power going into the jumps...very little spring...she just snaps the rotations right off the ice. This may work when you are 13 years old and tiny but once you start growing...well we have seen how much others with this kind of technique (Lipnitskaya, Zhang, Medvedeva...) have struggled with growth.

I question why skaters this young (this goes for the Russians too) are being pushed to do quads and 3 axels, when they have yet to master the basics of stroking and using the edges to gain power, speed and security.

Alysa is sooooo tiny, has she even reached 4'6"? I don't expect her to keep her jumps once she grows, especially that 3axel. But I do enjoy watching her now and that's what I care about. It's great to see a young girl show such fierce competitiveness and talent. But I'm not placing any bets on her for 2022. I'm just enjoying her in the present. I also hope she isn't held down at USN to prop up Bradie and Mariah. This might be her only year to win USN, and if she skates lights out she deserves to win, IMO.

 

[mgobluegirl]

I also hope she isn't held down at USN to prop up Bradie and Mariah. This might be her only year to win USN, and if she skates lights out she deserves to win, IMO.

I find it more likely that she'll be showered with enormous scores if she skates well. USFS will be eager to market her as the US answer to the technical prowess of the current Russian juniors. I don't think it's a wise strategy, better to let her develop and enjoy what she is now, as you said, but it fits with what USFS has done in the past. Like how they marketed/pushed Mirai/Caroline when they were the top US juniors at nationals in 2007.

 

[Spun Silver]

I find it more likely that she'll be showered with enormous scores if she skates well. USFS will be eager to market her as the US answer to the technical prowess of the current Russian juniors. I don't think it's a wise strategy, better to let her develop and enjoy what she is now, as you said, but it fits with what USFS has done in the past. Like how they marketed/pushed Mirai/Caroline when they were the top US juniors at nationals in 2007.

I doubt Mirai would give up her national title or 4th place finish at the Olympics for a more peaceful youth out of the limelight, but I guess I could be wrong.

 

[layman]

Alysa is sooooo tiny, has she even reached 4'6"? I don't expect her to keep her jumps once she grows, especially that 3axel. But I do enjoy watching her now and that's what I care about. It's great to see a young girl show such fierce competitiveness and talent. But I'm not placing any bets on her for 2022. I'm just enjoying her in the present. I also hope she isn't held down at USN to prop up Bradie and Mariah. This might be her only year to win USN, and if she skates lights out she deserves to win, IMO.

This topic came up when discussing the Eteri school...is the goal to create one hit wonders who win Worlds or Olympics one year, then are washed up the next year...or is the goal to produce Champions with staying power (a la Kwan, Kostner, Arakawa or Tuktamusheva)? If we want Champions with staying power, we will have to teach them strong basics so that they have a sound base (from which to build) as they mature.

 

[mag]

I have never met a skater who would choose a long career over Olympic or World gold and a short career. Fans may like skaters who stick around, but skaters are pretty much in it for as many titles as they can get as quickly as possible.

I do think it is funny when people put Kwan in the long career group. She stuck around, IMHO, not because she wanted a long career but in the search for Olympic gold. Had she won in 98 I highly doubt she would have still been competing in 02.

 

[layman]

I think this cash in quick philosophy is so short sighted. At this rate some of these Junior Wunderkinds won't make it to Seniors. They are being asked to do too much, too soon.

 

[haribobo]

Had she won in 98 I highly doubt she would have still been competing in 02.

I don't know about this...she had only been on the senior scene for about 3 seasons including 97-98, and for her to come out with new and vibrant programs every season tells me that she had some artistic and competitive exploration and legacy building to do that weren't solely focused on the Olympics. Then she went on after 2002 for another 4 seasons...which at that point felt a bit more like an Olympic quest as the programs were less interesting/creative. Anyway that's how I saw it.

 

[Dobre]

I love Alysa. I hope she'll make it. I don't count on it at all. I never count on it with young athletes. But I've not seen Amber Glenn, Courtney Hicks, Vivien Le, Hanna Harrell, or many of the other young U.S. ladies that have high jumps bringing in titles either. I certainly don't remember Bradie being touted for having great technique when she was in juniors. And I definitely remember being told that Sasha didn't have it. I also remember being told that Nathan was pushing too much too soon and wouldn't make it due to injury. I just don't think we are capable of reading the future here. Some athletes gain power and strength as they grow. Alysa's technique is already much better than it was two years ago. Why do people leap to the conclusion that because she has increased her jump content she is not also focusing on improving her technique?

 

[VGThuy]

Whether or not Kwan continued for her quest for Olympic gold does not matter as the truth is she did have a long career and was highly competitive for 9 seasons straight to the point where younger and more athletically-ambitious skaters would compete against her and she still managed to medal at every competition for 9 seasons straight (9 seasons nothing less than silver outside of like four competitions). Some skaters do want a long career and live for competition and keep going because they want to but many cannot because it's not possible for a variety of reasons (physically, finanically, etc.). I do think motivation is a huge issue and one that even Kwan dealt with after 1998 for a bit when she started discovering outside interests but she seemed addicted to competition and the process.

 

[layman]

Right...if you asked a member of the general public to name an Olympic Gold Medalist, most would name Kwan (I think her longevity has a lot to do with this perception). Baiul, Lipinski, Hughes, Sotnikova...they are all footnotes. They won Gold and then quickly left the sport. Few people outside the skating world remember them.

 

[Vagabond]

They wouldn't just name Kwan, they'd name that little Japanese girl, Nancy Kwan. ("Is she still skating?")

 

[WillyElliot]

They wouldn't just name Kwan, they'd name that little Japanese girl, Nancy Kwan. ("Is she still skating?")

I was just about to say that everyone remembers the Olympic gold medalist and queen of the ice: Nancy Kwan!!

 

[Dobre]

Kwan. Who moved up to compete at the senior level before even her coach wanted her to.

 

[attyfan]

I don't know how other countries finance their skaters, but, for a US skater, Kwan (IMO) was somewhat of a fluke due to the "post-whack boom" -- which gave her a lot of earning opportunities while continuing to compete that simply don't exist anymore. I'm not sure it would be financially feasible for most US skaters to try for long careers, since it is harder and harder to earn enough to pay for it.

 

[VGThuy]

Maybe I’m wrong but I sort of feel that amount of skaters that have tried to compete in the senior level for two or three Olympic cycles have stayed relatively the same in the US. A particular poster calls them journeymen/women .

Anyway for a skater like Kwan who was pretty much doing well and bringing home medals would have had the ability today to receive endorsements to continue competing.

 

[layman]

Kwan. Who moved up to compete at the senior level before even her coach wanted her to.

https://youtu.be/htevMS0Vnyc
Yet, even at the age of 12, it is quite clear that Kwan had been taught sound technique. She was not expected to peak at 13 and then retire. Rather, someone in her camp had a long term vision of how she could grow and develop year by year, step by step, starting with strong fundamentals and then building upon them. Someone close to her was looking at the big picture.

What I find unethical and short-sited, is teaching youngsters flawed technique knowing that it will not take them past puberty, keeping them on starvation diets, asking them to deliver way more than their bodies are capable of all at once, then cruelly tossing them aside when puberty finally does hit and repeating the whole process with the next prepubescent wonder and the next and the next. Does this process sound familiar?

 

[concorde]

From what I have seen, most parents care less about technique and more about results. Can you blame them since results tend to signal progress and the name of the game is progress especially since they are footing the bills.

Correct technique takes longer in the short term but pays off in the long term. And there is no guarantee that the kid will want to skate in the long term.

 

[flyingsit]

Kwan. Who moved up to compete at the senior level before even her coach wanted her to.

I'm still suspicious of that story... most clubs require a coach's signature on a test form.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

LOL, you guys are making her sound like an airline

BradieAir offers extra leg room, three in-flight channels, and a free tomato and cheese sandwich.

 

[Debbie S]

I'm still suspicious of that story... most clubs require a coach's signature on a test form.

I remember years ago, someone brought that up on one of the boards and someone said that the club she tested at did not require a coach's signature. (My club didn't when I first started testing but started requiring it about 8-9 years ago, I remember it was a discussion at a board meeting.)

 

[Vagabond]

I'm still suspicious of that story... most clubs require a coach's signature on a test form.

Why would Carroll claim that Kwan went behind his back if she did not do so?