U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Watching Hicks, you see she really does have the power and glide to be internationally respected and competitive and her jumps are huge. She has the qualities that I always complain about coaches not teaching our American ladies at a young age and thus putting them at a disadvantage when they compete against skaters from other countries. I don't know what it is, but she seldom gives clean or even clean-ish performances. She's never had that undeniable skate yet.

It's frustrating, because I have found that Hicks packaging never seems to capitalise on her raw athleticism, but hobbles her with a generic princess template instead. It reminds me of when Josee Chouinard coached Yoshi Onda, and she tried to make the Japanese skater into a carbon copy of herself.

 

[Spiralgraph]

I wonder what the selection committee will do if Hicks and Glenn both skate lights out and either Bell or Tennell finish out of the top four.

That's a big if, isn't it? Besides with body of work being very strongly considered for places at worlds, just one great performance at Nationals may not help Hicks or Glenn get to worlds. It might help them for 4CC, though.

 

[VGThuy]

It's frustrating, because I have found that Hicks packaging never seems to capitalise on her raw athleticism, but hobbles her with a generic princess template instead. It reminds me of when Josee Chouinard coached Yoshi Onda, and she tried to make the Japanese skater into a carbon copy of herself.

I think Hicks like it. To be fair, they did try to make her Queen Elizabeth once which is not generic princess, but all people spoke about was how ill-fitting her costume was. You do have a point though. Hicks does need work to smooth out the edges, but programs that don't try to make her wear a bun and cake on the make-up and wear U.S. skaters style dresses (you know what I'm talking about) would do a lot to mask things and buy her more time as her skating naturally smooths out with age and hard work.

 

[Frau Muller]

Nobody’s talking about Hannah Harrell. She looked pretty great at Midwesterns. Amber beat her there but Hannah is usually more consistent.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I think Hicks like it. To be fair, they did try to make her Queen Elizabeth once which is not generic princess, but all people spoke about was how ill-fitting her costume was. You do have a point though. Hicks does need work to smooth out the edges, but programs that don't try to make her wear a bun and cake on the make-up and wear U.S. skaters style dresses (you know what I'm talking about) would do a lot to mask things and buy her more time as her skating naturally smooths out with age and hard work.

If Courtney is going to make her move, now is the time. Otherwise, she may just get lost in the shuffle again.

 

[Frau Muller]

I have a feeling that the placements at Four Continents 2019 will determine which two age-eligible ladies go to Worlds. USA needs to get smart, like Russia, and not name the final Worlds team until Four Cs/Euros is over.

 

[kwanatic]

It's frustrating, because I have found that Hicks packaging never seems to capitalise on her raw athleticism, but hobbles her with a generic princess template instead. It reminds me of when Josee Chouinard coached Yoshi Onda, and she tried to make the Japanese skater into a carbon copy of herself.

I thought they packaged her very well for the 2016-2017 season. Her SP to Maleficent was excellent and her Hunchback of Notre Dame FS was probably the best she's ever had. The costumes were good, the music edits were great and the choreo was spot on for her style of skating. Courtney doesn't have lovely lines or nice extension; she's quite compact. The choreography they came up with that year really worked for her style of movement and was very effective especially when she skated cleanly or cleanishly. I hated that she wasn't able to have strong performances at nationals that year. I also loved her Nocturne SP from last year but I didn't care for her Amazing Grace FS.

We'll have to see if she can break out of this 4 year nationals rut. Courtney is one of the few long term veterans in the field this year. It would be nice to see her place well. Her highest finish at senior nationals is 4th back in 2013. She hasn't been able to crack the top 5 since then.

 

[Maximillian]

I wonder what the selection committee will do if Hicks and Glenn both skate lights out and either Bell or Tennell finish out of the top four.

Honestly, I couldn't imagine them denying a World spot to either of those two if they finished ahead of Bell. Tennell, probably, but Bell--though she has had a nice Autumn--no way, she's never done anything internationally to warrant special treatment. And I say that as someone who has really warmed up to her skating this season and would love to see her at Worlds.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Honestly, I couldn't imagine them denying a World spot to either of those two if they finished ahead of Bell. Tennell, probably, but Bell--though she has had a nice Autumn--no way, she's never done anything internationally to warrant special treatment. And I say that as someone who has really warmed up to her skating this season and would love to see her at Worlds.

Apart from dance and to a lesser extent, men, this season is really about rebuilding for the U.S. senior division.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

It's frustrating, because I have found that Hicks packaging never seems to capitalise on her raw athleticism, but hobbles her with a generic princess template instead. It reminds me of when Josee Chouinard coached Yoshi Onda, and she tried to make the Japanese skater into a carbon copy of herself.

Just too much power that leaves her jumps uncontrollable.

Seems like no coaching team has been able to harness it. Sigh.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Just too much power that leaves her jumps uncontrollable.

I think it is because she is not travelling fast enough, and there is a lack of balance between the power of her centrifugal rotation and not enough propulsion to pull out of a jump, and when she lands she keeps on rotating. She also does not have good enough elasticity in her body from the hips up; just good enough in her arms, but only up to the shoulders (which do not reflect the rest of the arms' movements).

 

[Willin]

Send Ashley Wagner to Worlds?

Moulin Rouge season 4!

 

[overedge]

Courtney needs to be Wonder Woman or Xena or a female Gladiator. She would rock in a program like that.

 

[olympic]

I have a feeling that the placements at Four Continents 2019 will determine which two age-eligible ladies go to Worlds. USA needs to get smart, like Russia, and not name the final Worlds team until Four Cs/Euros is over.

the problem arises when the 4CCs are in Asia. That is a lot of travel for NA skaters to make it a decisive competition

 

[DimaToe]

I have a feeling that the placements at Four Continents 2019 will determine which two age-eligible ladies go to Worlds. USA needs to get smart, like Russia, and not name the final Worlds team until Four Cs/Euros is over.

I feel like 4cc should not be used to pick the world team, but something like a live streamed or taped and shortly after released on YouTube between the main contenders should be used. An example is Nagasu at 4cc, later in her career she had nothing to lose so of course a good set of programs would be “easier” to deliver. Or when Christina Gao beat Gracie Gold at 2013 4cc, or when (again) Nagasu and Bell beat Chen at 2017 4cc. There has to be an attempt to find a balance between body of work and Nationals decides it all.

 

[haribobo]

What is the point of Nationals besides to determine the Worlds (and 4CC and Jr Worlds) team? Just a glamor comp and resume padder? How many times are we going to make these poor skaters peak because we aren't REALLY REALLY sure that skaters in gold and silver at Nationals are our best 2 skaters?

I still kind of can't believe Ross was passed over for OLY after that fabulous skate at Nationals, but those were the guidelines so at least its sort of legal or whatever. Never would have happened like that in the 90s though...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

What is the point of Nationals besides to determine the Worlds (and 4CC and Jr Worlds) team? Just a glamor comp and resume padder? How many times are we going to make these poor skaters peak because we aren't REALLY REALLY sure that skaters in gold and silver at Nationals are our best 2 skaters?

I still kind of can't believe Ross was passed over for OLY after that fabulous skate at Nationals, but those were the guidelines so at least its sort of legal or whatever. Never would have happened like that in the 90s though...

Although the one time it did happen in the 1990s, was when Mark Mitchell was dumped in favour of an absent Todd Eldredge for the Olympic Team.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

the problem arises when the 4CCs are in Asia. That is a lot of travel for NA skaters to make it a decisive competition

Maybe the ISU should ditch Four Continents and bring back North Americans instead.

 

[Frau Muller]

What is the point of Nationals besides to determine the Worlds (and 4CC and Jr Worlds) team? Just a glamor comp and resume padder? How many times are we going to make these poor skaters peak because we aren't REALLY REALLY sure that skaters in gold and silver at Nationals are our best 2 skaters?

I still kind of can't believe Ross was passed over for OLY after that fabulous skate at Nationals, but those were the guidelines so at least its sort of legal or whatever. Never would have happened like that in the 90s though...

It was a very different judging system in the 90s.

 

[Marco]

What is the point of Nationals besides to determine the Worlds (and 4CC and Jr Worlds) team? Just a glamor comp and resume padder? How many times are we going to make these poor skaters peak because we aren't REALLY REALLY sure that skaters in gold and silver at Nationals are our best 2 skaters?

I still kind of can't believe Ross was passed over for OLY after that fabulous skate at Nationals, but those were the guidelines so at least its sort of legal or whatever. Never would have happened like that in the 90s though...

Nationals can also decide funding and assignments for other competitions where skaters can get WS points or a chance to get SB to allow them a better chance at a GP invite.

I think there is merit in deciding a team based on placement and scores from an international panel (preferably head to head). e.g. the PCS of Ross Miner and Jeremy Abbott at 2011 Nationals decided their relative placements and sending Ross over Jeremy to 2011 Worlds, even though Ross did not earn nearly that PCS level internationally earlier that season and was not able to earn that PCS level at Worlds later that season. On the flip side, Jeremy's PCS stood relatively consistently whether he skated well or not. So I guess the US Fed was careful not to make the same mistake in 2018 when Ross was also very clearly aiming to peak at Nationals (instead of later in the season) where there were other skaters who were able to demonstrate much more consistent and better scoring over a season or two.

I agree with the pick of Ashley and Polina over Mirai in 2014 and don't agree with not picking Jeremy over Ross in 2011 or Ashley over Karen in 2018. The latter outcomes were sooo predictable.

 

[haribobo]

Although the one time it did happen in the 1990s, was when Mark Mitchell was dumped in favour of an absent Todd Eldredge for the Olympic Team.

Not analogous, because Eldredge didn't skate at Nationals and place below Mark. Also, Todd was reigning World broze medalist at that time, while Adam and Vincent didn't make the 2017 World team. A more similar situation to what happened to Ross would be to send Bowman, Wylie, and Scott Davis to 92 Olympics, skipping over Mark.

 

[gkelly]

Regardless of whether the selection committee sticks to a "body of work" policy or a policy of strictly following Nationals results, over the years sometimes there will be decisions that look brilliant in hindsight and others that look like huge mistakes in hindsight.

We'd need more years under each policy to see which one works better on average. Olympic years come too rarely to provide sufficient data. (And they also tend to encourage more skaters to stick around for one more try, which means more of them have a body of work to be considered.)

One disadvantage of considering only Nationals results is that that produces incentive for officials to try to manipulate the Nationals results to produce the team they want to see (easier to control under 6.0 of course), rather than just marking the competition on its own merits.

 

[doglover123]

There are some names that I am unfamiliar with in the senior ladies event. Can someone help me out a bit

 

[kwanatic]

There are some names that I am unfamiliar with in the senior ladies event. Can someone help me out a bit

Welcome to the crazy, @doglover123!

If you don't recognize some of the names I'd say your best bet would be to YouTube them. You can usually find videos of most (if not all) of the senior nationals competitors there.

If you want more info just mention a few names. Chances are someone here can tell you whatever you want to know.

 

[doglover123]

Welcome to the crazy, @doglover123!

If you don't recognize some of the names I'd say your best bet would be to YouTube them. You can usually find videos of most (if not all) of the senior nationals competitors there.

If you want more info just mention a few names. Chances are someone here can tell you whatever you want to know.

Hi, thank you so much!
I’m afraid of I haven’t heard much of Heidi Munger, Rena Ikenishi or Sierra Venetta. I wanted to get to know more about them before next week

 

[Japanfan]

It's frustrating, because I have found that Hicks packaging never seems to capitalise on her raw athleticism, but hobbles her with a generic princess template instead. It reminds me of when Josee Chouinard coached Yoshi Onda, and she tried to make the Japanese skater into a carbon copy of herself.

I digress, but am reminded of when Josee dressed Yoshi in pink, with pink ribbons in her braids.

Yoshi looked so very miserable - really OMG sort of miserable.

A raw athlete should never be hobbled by the princess image. And coaches should know that, even in the US of A, which reveres its ice princesses.

 

[Frau Muller]

Hi, thank you so much!
I’m afraid of I haven’t heard much of Heidi Munger, Rena Ikenishi or Sierra Venetta. I wanted to get to know more about them before next week

Munger was the principal skating double for the actress who played Tonja Harding in the movie I, Tonja.

 

[Sylvia]

@doglover123, here's a Boston University article from one year ago about Heidi Munger ("freshman biology major skates five days a week while balancing a full course load") who also skates on their intercollegiate figure skating team): https://dailyfreepress.com/blog/2018/03/01/cas-freshman-stunt-doubled-for-margot-robbie-in-i-tonya/

 

[dee342]

Hi, thank you so much!
I’m afraid of I haven’t heard much of Heidi Munger, Rena Ikenishi or Sierra Venetta. I wanted to get to know more about them before next week

Sierra Venetta skated at Pacific Sectionals. She was ok. I think she placed fourth.

 

[Maximillian]

A raw athlete should never be hobbled by the princess image. And coaches should know that, even in the US of A, which reveres its ice princesses.

I agree, but can we please stop denying that these skaters have any agency whatsoever and imposing all the blame for 'pretty princess' programs on their handlers and federations. I suspect in many cases that the skaters (Hicks in particular) see themselves or desire to see themselves in that vein and either initiate or agree to that particular aesthetic. Whether or not the image or desire to be a 'princess' is healthy, honest, realistic or culturally conditioned is irrelevant to the fact that many of these 'athletic' skaters choose this particular aesthetic and are not being 'shackled' by twirling moustachioed coaches, etal.