U.S. Women [#3]: Skating Clean

Status
Not open for further replies.
The comments about Karen Chen are fair. Based on her reaction at the end of her skate, I suspect this was a farewell and the following is moot.

That said, if she decides to continue, USFS can’t keep ignoring that she’s a 1-2 triple skater. She cannot rotate the flip (which also gets an edge call or warning) or the salchow to international caller standards, even in practice, and the loop has entirely disappeared. She doesn’t even have a solo jump to put in the short program! Any sane selection criteria should disqualify her based on that alone.

I continue to :rolleyes: at the comments about younger skaters’ technique. Chen’s is worse than all of them! She may be a nice young woman, but her international results are as bad as Nicole Bobek’s, and it’s time she gets the bad girl treatment. If she doesn’t retire, I suspect (hope) the USFS will just carrot and edge call her into 7th or 10th place. There’s ample justification. She’s had a great and long career, given her mediocre results. I believe her record is by far the worst of any two-time Olympian in US figure skating history. Time to say “au revoir!” I’m sure she wants to go out on a high, but going out as an Olympian, team medalist, and world team member is a high.
 
Louis said:
The comments about Karen Chen are fair. Based on her reaction at the end of her skate, I suspect this was a farewell and the following is moot.

That said, if she decides to continue, USFS can’t keep ignoring that she’s a 1-2 triple skater. She cannot rotate the flip (which also gets an edge call or warning) or the salchow to international caller standards, even in practice, and the loop has entirely disappeared. She doesn’t even have a solo jump to put in the short program! Any sane selection criteria should disqualify her based on that alone.

I continue to :rolleyes: at the comments about younger skaters’ technique. Chen’s is worse than all of them! She may be a nice young woman, but her international results are as bad as Nicole Bobek’s, and it’s time she gets the bad girl treatment. If she doesn’t retire, I suspect (hope) the USFS will just carrot and edge call her into 7th or 10th place. There’s ample justification. She’s had a great and long career, given her mediocre results. I believe her record is by far the worst of any two-time Olympian in US figure skating history. Time to say “au revoir!” I’m sure she wants to go out on a high, but going out as an Olympian, team medalist, and world team member is a high.
Click to expand...
I don't think she's going to need to be edge-called or carroted off the podium and down into 7th or 10th place. It will happen, on its own, if she keeps putting out skates like the ones she did in Beijing and Montpellier. I don't know what happened between the fall/Nationals and the Olympics, but, somehow, her loop disappeared completely. She would have been a clear third, maybe lower in Nashville had Alysa not come down with the crud. Between the USFS not wanting Thorngren to beat either Bell or Chen this year and put them in the same conundrum that Malinin then put them in on the Men's side, and Levito being too young to go, Karen became the beneficiary, but I don't see her continuing to benefit like that next cycle. Thorngren has a pretty decent head for competition and will most certainly be on the GP next season, possibly the same for Levito (unless the age gets raised to 16 immediately next season by the ISU Congress - and I'm not convinced the age increase proposal won't be amended because of what happened at the Olympics and how things played out at Worlds). Either way, between those two and some of the other women who are starting to gain confidence and just hit seniors in the last year or two (Shin, Harrell, Heiner, Wang, etc), I think Karen is just going to lose on TES alone if she's delivering the same content as she was this week or in Beijing.

But, I also agree, this is probably entirely moot because she's heading back to Cornell and, hopefully, done with her competitive career. Nothing shameful in two 4ths at Worlds, a National title and and Olympic medal of some color.
 
Last edited:
It is worth remembering that Karen has placed 4th at Worlds twice and had great skaters there and often times along the way, and her jumping was hindered by a really ugly ankle sprain at the Olympics. I had an eyebrow raised when she never withdrew from Worlds because sprains can take a lot longer than a couple weeks to recover from. I don't know enough about jump mechanics but I would have to guess the sprain was a huge factor in her loop issues at Olympics and Worlds. I think it took her from a slightly unreliable jumper to a very unreliable one. And although 8th by some standards is a good finish, I think she would have better served her legacy as a competitor by just withdrawing from this and letting Amber skate at Worlds. It seems clear to me that the sprain isn't fully healed or at least she lost too much training time/jumping ability from that debacle. I think competitors can often get locked in a "must compete" bubble where the rational decision to rest an injury does not appeal to them or even make sense as a viable option.
 
Very true @haribobo - I think both Karen and Ashley were more affected by their ankle injuries than they realized and both skaters/teams should have withdrawn from Worlds. I know both of them said they were fine, but it's clear they weren't (Ashley's loop was also pretty non-existent per pairs practice reports). It would have served both better to have withdrawn and let Amber and Calalang/Johnson get some critical WS points.
 
haribobo said:
It is worth remembering that Karen has placed 4th at Worlds twice and had great skaters there and often times along the way, and her jumping was hindered by a really ugly ankle sprain at the Olympics. I had an eyebrow raised when she never withdrew from Worlds because sprains can take a lot longer than a couple weeks to recover from. I don't know enough about jump mechanics but I would have to guess the sprain was a huge factor in her loop issues at Olympics and Worlds. I think it took her from a slightly unreliable jumper to a very unreliable one.
Click to expand...
The sprain seems to have been on the left foot (which her loop has nothing to do with :shuffle:). Not saying an injury can’t cause problems in other ways, but if any jump should have been spared from a sprained left ankle, it would have been the loop.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaFqKG-Ppk9/?utm_medium=copy_link (second picture)

My guess is she lost the timing on the loop between nationals and the Olympics. I think it was a poor choice to keep it in as long as they did, but her other options for the short were limited.

I think Karen is a beautiful skater with extremely limited jumping potential due to technical flaws that were never addressed. I think she’d be a great show skater and I think she can be proud of her competitive career.
 
Agree with most of that, although I think to say one ankle has "nothing to do with" a jump is perhaps a bit hyperbolic. "Less impacted" sure, but if I can't walk across a room or put on pants with a foot injury, I have to imagine any jump is at least marginally impacted by that type of injury, even if that foot is in essence just "along for the ride"....
 
haribobo said:
Agree with most of that, although I think to say one ankle has "nothing to do with" a jump is perhaps a bit hyperbolic. "Less impacted" sure, but if I can't walk across a room or put on pants with a foot injury, I have to imagine any jump is at least marginally impacted by that type of injury, even if that foot is in essence just "along for the ride"....
Click to expand...
Ok, so maybe “nothing” to do with it is a stretch, but it’s odd that her lutz has been pretty great the last two competitions if the left ankle is a huge issue. I just don’t think the ankle is the reason for the loop problem. I think it’s a timing issue that probably escalated into a mental block on it.
 
Karen's been on so many teams because she has one of the highest PCS ceilings for US ladies. If she rotates stuff the rest of her skating puts her right up there with the best. I understand it is frustrating for some "fans" but who else would you have sent to the Olympics and Worlds based on US National results? I'm sure it will be debated forever as to choosing her for the team event, but that's another issue. She'll likely be buried by Thorngren and Levito or whomever if she sticks around, but I probably said something similar after the last Olympics and here we are.
 
skateboy said:
Stop it. Just stop it, seriously. Do you really think you're scoring any points here?
Click to expand...
Let's recap Karen Chen's international competitions this year:

At Autumn Classic SP, Chen earned negative GOE on two jump elements.
At Finlandia SP, Chen earned negative or 0.0 GOE on two jump elements.
In the Canadian GP SP, Chen earned negative GOE on only one jump combo!
In the French GP SP, Chen earned negative GOE on all jumps except the axel.
In the Olympic Team SP, Chen earned negative GOE on all jumps except the axel.
In the Olympic Women's SP, Chen earned negative GOE on all jumps except the axel.
In the Worlds SP, she managed a positive GOE of .08 on the 3Lutz/3Toe along with a q, and biffed the planned 3 loop into a single.

At Autumn Classic FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 6 jump elements. A record, of sorts.
At Finlandia FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 3 jump elements.
In the Canadian GP FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 6 of her jump elements.
In the French GP FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 3 of her jump elements.
In the Olympic Team FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 4 of her jump elements.
In the Olympic Women's FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 4 of her jump elements and singled her planned solo 3 lutz.
In the Worlds FP, she had negative GOE on 3 jump elements, q notes on 2, and an under rotation on the third.

She earns q and/or under rotation calls at every international competition. She has a really solid double axel. Yay?

This isn't a problem with a skater who had a sprained ankle at the Olympics or a problem in one competition, two competitions, or three competitions. This is a skater who has become unreliable on virtually all her triples.
 
barbk said:
Let's recap Karen Chen's international competitions this year:

At Autumn Classic SP, Chen earned negative GOE on two jump elements.
At Finlandia SP, Chen earned negative or 0.0 GOE on two jump elements.
In the Canadian GP SP, Chen earned negative GOE on only one jump combo!
In the French GP SP, Chen earned negative GOE on all jumps except the axel.
In the Olympic Team SP, Chen earned negative GOE on all jumps except the axel.
In the Olympic Women's SP, Chen earned negative GOE on all jumps except the axel.
In the Worlds SP, she managed a positive GOE of .08 on the 3Lutz/3Toe along with a q, and biffed the planned 3 loop into a single.

At Autumn Classic FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 6 jump elements. A record, of sorts.
At Finlandia FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 3 jump elements.
In the Canadian GP FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 6 of her jump elements.
In the French GP FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 3 of her jump elements.
In the Olympic Team FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 4 of her jump elements.
In the Olympic Women's FP, Chen earned negative GOE on 4 of her jump elements and singled her planned solo 3 lutz.
In the Worlds FP, she had negative GOE on 3 jump elements, q notes on 2, and an under rotation on the third.

She earns q and/or under rotation calls at every international competition. She has a really solid double axel. Yay?

This isn't a problem with a skater who had a sprained ankle at the Olympics or a problem in one competition, two competitions, or three competitions. This is a skater who has become unreliable on virtually all her triples.
Click to expand...
Why don't you just set up a hate page?
 
When did a recap of her called jump errors turn into hate? That's rather eye opening because I felt Karen was one of our weaker technical skaters but didn't realize it was that bad. She has lovely qualities but that's a lot of bad technique to rely on just lovely.
 
The loop has always been a solid jump for Karen, and for it to go completely AWOL the past couple months does not reflect well upon Tammy Gambill. I suspect a more competent coach would have been able to sort out the issue.

Regardless, Karen fairly earned her World and Olympic spots, as disappointing as it is not see her skate to her full potential. I found Mariah and Karen to both be scored generously at Nationals.
 
skateboy said:
Why don't you just set up a hate page?
Click to expand...
I don't hate her at all. Like other skaters, she'd spent many thousands of hours practicing skating. Her PCS skills are strong. Whether it is from chronic injuries, lack of training, or some other reason, she has simply lost her ability to jump in a competitive international context. That's not a moral failing. She has other options. She could also invest time in re-learning jumps to get rid of the quality issues and gain some consistency. Up to her, but she's dug herself a huge hole. As a known underrotator, she's going to get extra scrutiny on her jumps. That may not be fair, but it is true.
 
VGThuy said:
Let's list all the protocols for every other U.S. ladies skater.
Click to expand...

I actually think this would be a good exercise and ideally should be written into selection criteria. E.g., skaters who do not habitually receive underrotations, downgrades, and edge calls / warnings from international panels should be prioritized in the selection criteria over those who do.

I also think it's past time for the U.S. to invite (non-U.S.) international callers to call U.S. Nationals, at least in women's. The calling bears only the slightest resemblance to what an international panel does. It's time to stop denying it, and start selecting the international team using the same standards they'll face internationally. (And, yes, this affects more than just Karen Chen; and, yes, it could potentially affect other skaters worse.)
 
Louis said:
I actually think this would be a good exercise and ideally should be written into selection criteria. E.g., skaters who do not habitually receive underrotations, downgrades, and edge calls / warnings from international panels should be prioritized in the selection criteria over those who do.

I also think it's past time for the U.S. to invite (non-U.S.) international callers to call U.S. Nationals, at least in women's. The calling bears only the slightest resemblance to what an international panel does. It's time to stop denying it, and start selecting the international team using the same standards they'll face internationally. (And, yes, this affects more than just Karen Chen; and, yes, it could potentially affect other skaters worse.)
Click to expand...
Ooooo!!! I love both of these ideas! If you want to really start using the total scores then use all of the information available from those competitions including what is going on in the protocols. Maybe the USFS will say "we weigh PCS more heavily than TES and those q, <, <<, !, and e calls" but at least then the skaters would know that TES alone isn't going to get them a spot on the team.
 
Karen needs an MRI with contrast dye on both hips. Hip labrums don't have nerve endings, but a tear there will cause instability. I almost want to bet this is relevant to her disappearing backwards edge jumps. I swear her Salchow used to be a lot better, but maybe I'm misremembering.

And I was also surprised to see both her and Ashley Cain-Gribble at Worlds after they publicly discussed / blamed injuries for falls in Beijing. I would love to know what, if any, monitoring was done. Also, the coach of the ladies' alternate was Ashley C-G's coach, so I wonder if wanting to protect his kid/athlete from scrutiny was a factor in not agitating for scrutiny of Karen's "readiness."
 
Coco said:
Karen needs an MRI with contrast dye on both hips. Hip labrums don't have nerve endings, but a tear there will cause instability. I almost want to bet this is relevant to her disappearing backwards edge jumps. I swear her Salchow used to be a lot better, but maybe I'm misremembering.

And I was also surprised to see both her and Ashley Cain-Gribble at Worlds after they publicly discussed / blamed injuries for falls in Beijing. I would love to know what, if any, monitoring was done. Also, the coach of the ladies' alternate was Ashley C-G's coach, so I wonder if wanting to protect his kid/athlete from scrutiny was a factor in not agitating for scrutiny of Karen's "readiness."
Click to expand...
Definitely a conflict of interest, @Coco!
 
Louis said:
I actually think this would be a good exercise and ideally should be written into selection criteria. E.g., skaters who do not habitually receive underrotations, downgrades, and edge calls / warnings from international panels should be prioritized in the selection criteria over those who do.
Click to expand...
Agree. It's one thing to talk about and know in general. It was quite eye opening to see it in a list.
 
Coco said:
Like a batting average, one for spins, one for jumps, one for steps, an overall one. There is no end to the helpful stats that could be kept :)
Click to expand...
Same with the PCS categories! And in Pairs, add in lifts, throws, etc. Same with Dance. It could actually be very informative.
 
I think Karen would make a wonderful coach! Time and time again, Karen has been vocal about her less than stellar technique and what she would do if she could start her career all over again. Why not start all over again by teaching the next generation of skaters? I also think Karen’s situation is not entirely her fault but rather the system. We have INCREDIBLE depth and talent but we don’t have the right coaches (or the right coaches in the right facilities). I’m looking forward to what the next generation of skaters will bring to the table. Thus far, none of them have egregious under-rotation problems (except for Clare Seo who is also coached by Tammy).
 
My sense is that scoring / judging at developmental levels can be very political. I mean, officiating in every sport kind of is. Younger /newer officials defer to established coaches.

This must alienate lots of parents and drive some kids out of the sport. It also allows kids with well regarded coaches to get the benefit of the doubt.
 
Coco said:
My sense is that scoring / judging at developmental levels can be very political. I mean, officiating in every sport kind of is. Younger /newer officials defer to established coaches.

This must alienate lots of parents and drive some kids out of the sport. It also allows kids with well regarded coaches to get the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...
I've thought it would be really handy if there was a computer-based system that would record takeoff edges, pre-rotation and landing rotation on the ice. There would need to be agreement on what is acceptable, but after that, it would eliminate a whole lot of the argle-bargle and rampant inconsistency between callers.
 
Karen is an absolutely gorgeous skater. I would rather watch Karen fall than many other women skate clean.
 
I'm really enjoying all the moral panic about Karen's competing at Worlds and representing the U.S. internationally in the Fall. Think of the children!!! Down to listing all of her URs from when she was a juvenile. Yeah, they should totally consider how skater's are called with international panels before selecting the Olympic team and not just use National results...oh wait, they do! I think Karen's scores were equivalent or better than any other women internationally save Liu, so...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)

Similar threads

haribobo
2025 US Nationals Senior Men and Women Projected Entries
Replies
8
Views
3K
Sylvia
Sylvia
Vagabond
  • Locked
U.S. Women [#6]: The More the Merrier!
32 33 34
Replies
1K
Views
132K
Sylvia
Sylvia
Sylvia
Entries & Skater info - 2025 US Nationals
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
genevieve
  • Locked
  • Sticky
2025 US Figure Skating Championships - General Info
Replies
0
Views
1K
genevieve
genevieve
R
  • Locked
Rough prediction of 2024-25 GP spot allocation
3 4 5
Replies
120
Views
20K
chameleonster
C
Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information