U.S. Ladies [#27]: A Time to Reboot

[Sylvia]

My unofficial hearsay from various sources is that the original call (3Lz+3T) was made correctly but Bradie's jump combo was input as a 3Lz+2T. There is a process called a "read back" of all the elements at the end of the skate and the "3Lz+2T" was not caught by the tech. panel and so then the elements were authorized/finalized. It could be that the second error during the read back phase overrode the original data input error and that's why the correction to 3Lz+3T was not permitted to be made by the ISU before the award ceremony? Who knows...

ETA from the same article:

“Technical specialists call (identify) elements, which data entry operators enter into the judging system,” the technical specialist said. “At the end of the program, the data entry operator reads the list of elements, and the technical controller and assistant technical controller review the list for accuracy. Somehow, the error escaped notice.”

 

[Coco]

Boooo!

In Sochi, I think someone gave a -1 to one of Lipnitskaya's spins that had twos and threes from everybody else. That seems an obvious input error, not sure if that was ever corrected either.

 

[Dobre]

After Cappellini & Lanotte's scores were changed late following the RD at Europeans, I think it was apparent that some type of time limit on changes needed to be in place. (Otherwise, we would see people protest all kinds of calls after rewatching video of their competitors). But this scenario seems like it might inspire another rule adjustment change.

 

[love skating]

Watching gymnastics recently, both artistic and rhythmic, there were many "inquiries" made after scores. I saw this a ton while watching rhythmic - it slows the competition as they review the routine to see if they gave the correct difficulty. However it is a common practice and the athletes and coaches are quick and ready to contest a score they feel isn't right.

I don't know if in skating the coaches/skaters/federations are used to checking the protocols and being ready to quickly question an error. But maybe with recent issues they need to be paying more attention.

 

[Maximillian]

Watching gymnastics recently, both artistic and rhythmic, there were many "inquiries" made after scores. I saw this a ton while watching rhythmic - it slows the competition as they review the routine to see if they gave the correct difficulty. However it is a common practice and the athletes and coaches are quick and ready to contest a score they feel isn't right.

I don't know if in skating the coaches/skaters/federations are used to checking the protocols and being ready to quickly question an error. But maybe with recent issues they need to be paying more attention.

Inquiries at the Artistic Worlds this year, were rather controversial because for the first time D scores were lowered after an inquiry, as opposed to either being raised or the inquiry being rejected. The lowering has been on the books since 2017, but this was the first worlds where it was put into practice, it happened with Kara Eaker's balance beam score in prelims and I believe Brooklyn Moors from Australia, as well. Though it was never officially stated, it was assumed by some that the 'loweing' of a D score during an inquiry was to discourage big money federations, i.e. the US from making so many inquiries.

 

[Tinami Amori]

My unofficial hearsay from various sources is that the original call (3Lz+3T) was made correctly but Bradie's jump combo was input as a 3Lz+2T. There is a process called a "read back" of all the elements at the end of the skate and the "3Lz+2T" was not caught by the tech. panel and so then the elements were authorized/finalized. It could be that the second error during the read back phase overrode the original data input error and that's why the correction to 3Lz+3T was not permitted to be made by the ISU before the award ceremony? Who knows...

Am i correct to understand that, in a nut-shell, Bradie did get the full credit for the actual jump-combo that she did? or were her marks (or any kind of numbers) lower as a result?

Because if they were lower due to a mistake, this is NOT right!

 

[sjs5572]

Am i correct to understand that, in a nut-shell, Bradie did get the full credit for the actual jump-combo that she did? or were her marks (or any kind of numbers) lower as a result?

Because if they were lower due to a mistake, this is NOT right!

They were lower. If she misses the final due to a few points in the tiebreaker, I bet we'll see some rule changes.

 

[Sylvia]

Because if they were lower due to a mistake, this is NOT right!

It appears to have been a combination of mistakes that led to the 3Lz+2T error being listed on Bradie's FS protocol (article link & relevant excerpts were posted on the previous page): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-ladies-27-a-time-to-reboot.105854/page-29#post-5665068

I didn't see this article posted here after Bradie won the SP using music composed by Kirill Richter: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...-personality-shines-through-at-skate-america/
Excerpts:

“I think (this program) just allows me to show the side of myself that I am off the ice with my family, a little bit more sarcastic, a little bit funny,” Tennell said. “It’s almost like an onion when you peel back the layers. To show this program is a challenge for me but it’s a challenge I welcome.”

The electricity Tennell ignited on Friday proves that when a skater loves her material, magic can happen. This isn’t the program Tennell and choreographer Benoit Richaud intended to use. An earlier routine, choreographed in May, failed to inspire the skater. When she saw Richaud at a training camp in Courchevel, France in June, she asked him to try again.
“So then he puts up this music and I’m like, ‘What is this, this is so cool, this is my music, let’s start now,’” Tennell recalled. “I was so excited to find this piece of music and use it…. Yeah, I love this program.”

“Before my injury [fractured bone in her right foot], I can’t remember the last time I didn’t have pain on the ice with my feet,” Tennell said. “It felt really bad at the beginning of July, and then it started to get progressively worse really quickly. So I went to the doctor and got some scans done, and they said, ‘Yeah, you’ve got a break in the bone there.’”
About a month ago, Tennell returned to full training, resolving to make up for lost time.

 

[jiejie]

After stripping away the ISU-designation mask--Officials involved in Bradie's calling, scoring and/or refused appeal:
Referee: Laimute Krauziene (Lithuania)
Tech Controller: Kersten Kimminus (Germany)
Tech Specialist: Gilberto Viadama (Italy)
Asst Tech Specialist: Myriam Loriol-Oberwiler (Switzerland)
Data Entry Operator: Christopher Richard Stokes (Canadian)

I will take special note at events where these names pop up on the panel.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I will take special note at events where these names pop up on the panel.

If anyone is willing to prepare a letter or a petition (i can't, my english sucks), i will sign, and am sure others will too.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I'm reminded of the worst judging f***-up at the 1968 Olympics, which cost USA's Tim Wood the gold medal in men's singles.

Oh wow, that's awful! Something like that could haunt an athlete for life! And these days, it could cause a huge scandal!

 

[olympic]

A 3Lz+3T< in the second half of the program is worth 10.19 points. Since Bradie had a weird wobble, that would have earned a median GOE of about -2. With the GOE tacked on, the 3Lz+3T< is now worth 9.01 points. Bradie's 3Lz+2T in the second half was worth 6.82 points. The difference between the 3Lz+3T< and 3Lz+2T is 2.19 points. Had Bradie been called correctly, her score would be 218.33 points. That's a HUGE difference in a sport like figure skating where 1 or 2 points could mean the difference between 1st and 4th.

Interesting going into SC this weekend, Bradie will face a tougher group: Trusova, Kihira, Medvedeva.

Medvedeva's top score this season from ACI is 217. Bradie earned 216 at SA. If she was marked correctly at SA, her score would be 218. Small things do matter. Something to think about .....

 

[euterpe]

Wonder if the same Data Operator from SA will be at SC:

Data Entry Operator: Christopher Richard Stokes (Canadian)

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Interesting going into SC this weekend, Bradie will face a tougher group: Trusova, Kihira, Medvedeva.

Medvedeva's top score this season from ACI is 217. Bradie earned 216 at SA. If she was marked correctly at SA, her score would be 218. Small things do matter. Something to think about .....

Especially if a Grand Prix Final berth is on the line, and there is a tie-break situation.

 

[natsulian]

Isabeau Levito wins the Novice event with a score of 172.33 at the North Atlantic Regional Singles Challenge. Isabeau landed a 3Lz-3T, 3Lz, 3F, 2A-3T(<), 3Lo-Eu-3S, 2Lz, and 2A. Isabeau received a technical score of 72.86.

Link: https://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2020/27723/CAT012SEG011.html

Also, sending all the congratulatory notes to Bradie for putting forth another stellar program. Had she not received an under-rotation on the 3T, she would've scored over 76. Best of luck in the Free. Also best of luck to anyone competing at the regional competitions.

 

[Sylvia]

Nick McCarvel is covering Skate Canada International for TeamUSA.org and chatted with Bradie after her 4th place finish earlier today:

Live chat with figure skater Bradie Tennell | 2018 Olympian and U.S. champ Bradie Tennell joins us for a chat... LIVE from Skate Canada! | By Team USAFacebook

2018 Olympian and U.S. champ Bradie Tennell joins us for a chat... LIVE from Skate Canada!

www.facebook.com

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Also, sending all the congratulatory notes to Bradie for putting forth another stellar program. Had she not received an under-rotation on the 3T, she would've scored over 76. B

I actually think Bradie was better at Canada that she was at skate America

 

[olympic]

^Eh. She got the UR on the 3T. Without it, I assume her score would've been just about the same. I saw in slo-mo that as she skated out of the jump, she appeared to look down at her tracings. LOL.

 

[aftershocks]

I haven't yet seen the ladies fp at this weekend's event, but Bradie was wonderful in the sp, and she was undermarked! Why did her marks go down so much on the tech side? What were they doing, picking away at her and trying to manage her scores in order to keep her behind Trusova in order to set Trusova up for the fp! Mishin had a nerve talking about politics at SA. Bradie deserved everything she got at SA, and she was also inadvertently cheated out of marks there too!!!

I have felt that much of the scoring has been fairly decent this season, but this current ladies event, boy. Young You should have been in first after the sp, Kihira second -- Kihira's PCS should not be higher than Young You's PCS, Bradie third, and Trusova in fourth. The judges managed Bradie's scores in order to keep her behind Trusova. If anything, Bradie's scores should have went up, not down, and she should have been higher on PCS than Trusova, who was overscored on PCS in order to keep her afloat for the fp. So there's the politics for you, Mishin -- never in U.S. ladies' favor these days. Mishin should be ashamed of himself for what he said after SA.

The ISU does not know how to score PCS, and they are favoring jumps, jumps, jumps over genuine aesthetic qualities.

 

[oleada]

I have felt that much of the scoring has been fairly decent this season, but this current ladies event, boy. Young You should have been in first after the sp, Kihira second -- Kihira's PCS should not be higher than Young You's PCS

I mean, Bradie had the second highest PCS in the SP, but don't let facts get in the way of your ranting

Do you know anything about skating at all? I love Young, she's my favorite Korean skater by far. But her basic skating is just not at Rika's level. She doesn't have the depth of edge, the flow, the knees. I mean, that's not even debatable. Her SP is great; her LP is as bad as her SP is good. She does not sell the choreography for one second. But even as great as her SP is, she doesn't have Rika's musicality.

Bradie's score was behind Trusova in the short, because her 3T was UR (in both the SP and the FS; it was pretty clear), plus the 3F which was very UR in the FS; Trusova had a higher base value with a 3Lz+3Lo combo in the second half. Even if Bradie had a perfect skate, she would not have beaten Trusova over all; there was a over 30 points difference in TES. And Bradie had higher PCS than Trusova on both programs so I'm really failing to see your argument here. As good as Bradie's SP is, the LP is a snooze.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

With a second place at Skate America, and a fourth place at Skate Canada, Bradie's combined total for both events is 22 points.

If there is a slim chance she could make the final, I just hope it doesn't come down to a tie-break with another skater, and she loses out because of the Skate America fiasco.

Other than that, I thought that Tennell skated so well at both events. She can be very proud of maintaining such a high level of performance over two back-to-back competitions.

 

[tylersf]

I just want to see more US ladies on the podium. We just need more quads to win.

so you're basically saying that you want US ladies to also become "jumping beans"? or do you mean to say "US ladies with quads are special", but "others with quads" are jumping beans?

 

[tylersf]

Trusova?

Has any female skater other than Alysa Liu ever landed both a triple axel and a quadruple jump of any kind in competition, not even necessarily at the same competition but ever in her career?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Trusova?

It's very much a phenomenon that began this season.

The only other lady I can think of who even considered it was Midori Ito. Apparently in late 1984, having mastered and landed the triple axel in exhibition, she and her team started working on the quadruple toe loop. Sadly, Ito broke her ankle prior to the 1985 World Championships. That injury really stalled her momentum until late 1987 when she almost beat Katarina Witt at the NHK Trophy.

 

[mtnskater]

I’m not sure back to back early season competitions was the best idea given Bradie was in a boot until about 1 month before Skate America. I wish she had a few weeks between events to train more and maybe have a better chance at a higher placement. I would love to see her in the GPF, but it’s probably an outside shot now.

 

[Messalina]

It could be that the second error during the read back phase overrode the original data input error and that's why the correction to 3Lz+3T was not permitted to be made by the ISU before the award ceremony?

If this is the logic behind the decision, it's truly a case of two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't understand the refusal to correct a clear and acknowledged error given that the panel does have the authority to make a revision.

 

[olympic]

Bradie’s 4th place finish at SC was predicted by Jackie Wong among others. She really didn’t have a chance to finish higher than 3rd with Rika and Sasha in the competition, so she met expectations. I would say holding it together in that field was no small feat, so I’m happy for her. The thought does creep into my head that if she had rotated all her jumps or even with her scores from SA, she probably would have squeezed past Young You and grabbed 3rd. So I have mixed feelings about this competition

 

[Dobre]

I thought Bradie was ready for SC and that she skated really well. She did almost everything she could do. This was a super deep field (most of the ladies' fields are deep this season). She put on pressure and put herself in the position to take advantage if the ladies with the quads & triple axels and triple lutz triple loop combination didn't deliver. Which was all she had the power to do.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Bradie was great and I appreciate her consistency. Maybe back-to-back GP's was too much. She seemed fresher last week. Still, she beat Med. It's not the first time.

She needs to smooth out these intricate programs so she can get the PCS she deserves. May have to put back 3L3Lo. What else could she tweak to raise her BV?

 

[oleada]

Bradie was great and I appreciate her consistency. Maybe back-to-back GP's was too much. She seemed fresher last week. Still, she beat Med. It's not the first time.

She needs to smooth out these intricate programs so she can get the PCS she deserves. May have to put back 3L3Lo. What else could she tweak to raise her BV?

Maybe change her layout (if the 3Lz+3Lo is not an option); as the second 3Lz+3T is rarely rotated:

3Lz+3T
2A
2A
3Lo
3Lz+eu+3S
3F+2T
3F

That way, she's repeating the 3Lz and 3F, and adding higher valued triples in the second half. Or, since she sometimes gets a ! for her flip, repeat the loop instead.