U.S. Ladies [#27]: A Time to Reboot

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Marco

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I really hope the calling mistake doesn't cost Bradie a spot on GPF or being slotted into earlier skating order, etc. This is plain weird.

Love Bradie's programs. For this early in the season she is very polished already. Goes to show all the hard work she did. Kudos on beating a past world champ with 3 3axels. One thing that bugs me is her knees. She never seems to sink into those landings. They are always a little stiff. Hope she works on that.

Amber has her moments. The ina bauer and some of those jumps were glorious. But I must say her chocie of music / program across both phases of the competition screams amateur. It's like - I can't take her seriously because she doesn't either. To me she is very Angela Wang or Bebe Liang - good solid skater, but just can't quite break the 5 triple barrier to be taken seriously for world team contention.

Happy to see Karen competiting again. The short program was nice but the free was quite boring, esp since the jumps didn't work. Long road ahead.
 

flyingsit

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Glenn is absolutely a Liang type... good basics, flashes of brilliance, but you just have to count on at least one fall and one pop per long program. Every time.
 

kwanatic

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Happy to see Bradie come out on fire so early! I really like her SP. It's the strongest of her programs IMO. It's different, it's interesting, it makes you take notice of her. Perfect choice! I also love that we're seeing a different side of her. Last year it was powerful and intense--this year it's relaxed and a bit flirty. It works! She's improved her audience connection as well which is one of the areas I always struggled with her. I never really connected with her skating but she had me with this one. The FS is lovely as well, though not as impactful IMO. It's beautiful and totally the kind of program/skating I love, but I do wonder if it will hold up against some of the more showy/flashy skating she'll face this year...

Regardless, Bradie definitely improved the flow between her movements and softened up some of her angles. I have so much appreciation for her hard work and visible improvements she makes to her skating every year. The jumps seemed to have more lift, her flying sit spin is a thing of beauty (I'd give it +4 easy), and her speed and ice coverage were excellent. I'm thoroughly impressed with Ms. Tennell.

I like that Amber skates with so much emotion but I don't know if it's so great for a competitive stage. All of her music feels more exhibition-like for me. More importantly, while I love the feeling she puts into it, I'm not impressed with her programs. There's a lack of general choreography in relation to the music. Music with lyrics tells a story; when the story isn't being told on ice, it feels a bit disconnected. IDK, maybe it's just me. I'd love to see her finally put together two strong programs. Hopefully she'll do better at her next event.

It was great to see Karen back on the ice but I felt so sorry for her! It was clear her cold kicked her butt big time during that FS. She kept wiping her nose and, bless her, you could see the snot stains on her dress at the end, lol😬! She fought as hard as she could but it was a rough performance. It sucks because we couldn't get an accurate picture of where she is right now with her skating. I hope she feels better soon and will do well at her next event.
 

layman

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It was great to see Karen back on the ice but I felt so sorry for her! It was clear her cold kicked her butt big time during that FS. She kept wiping her nose and, bless her, you could see the snot stains on her dress at the end, lol😬! She fought as hard as she could but it was a rough performance. It sucks because we couldn't get an accurate picture of where she is right now with her skating. I hope she feels better soon and will do well at her next event.
I did not even know Karen had a cold...I thought it was just early season kinks.

I love Karen's flow and ice coverage. It's really exceptional...the way she uses her knees and the way she uses her edges and her spins and spirals are to die for.

Her 3-lutz is monstrously big. She gets so much air time, height and distance. She can barely land it (she could turn it into a 4-lutz if she wanted to). It's hard to tack a clean 3-toe onto a lutz that big. I hope they have her add the 3-toe onto her loop or salchow or 2-axel. Her 3-lutz (which is spectacular when she lands it) should be repeated...once in combo with a double toe, double loop.

It may be too early to say, but I think Karen could medal at Nationals this year, if not win (I think she could win).
 
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DreamSkates

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Her FS PB is 150+ from WTT, and 225+ total, so no. But it’s ridiculous that the error stands.
This conversation makes me wonder just how often, a mistake happens, and how often it is protested and/or corrected by the judges. On the other hand, scores are still somewhat subjective - subjected to the "eye of the beholder" and it is not humanly possible to not occasionally blink or look away and miss something.
 

Coco

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I did not even know Karen had a cold...I thought it was just early season kinks.

I love Karen's flow and ice coverage. It's really exceptional...they way she uses her knees and way she uses her edges and her spins and spirals are to die for.

Her 3-lutz is monstrously big. She gets so much air time, height and distance. She can barely land it (she could turn it into a 4-lutz if she wanted to). It's hard to tack a clean 3-toe onto a lutz that big. I hope they have her add the 3-toe onto her loop or salchow or 2-axel. Her 3-lutz (which is spectacular when she lands it) should be repeated...once in combo with a double toe, double loop.

It may be too early to say, but I think Karen could medal at Nationals this year, if not win (I think she could win).
That's a good point. Not sure if any of her other jumps are 'combo friendly' but if they are and they insist on going with a 3z3t combination, that is 6.0 thinking, imo. She could maximize her GOE by attempting 3sal3toe and solo 3z. Or maybe the 3z is only that big because she does it first? Who knows...She has soooooo many fine qualities, hope it all comes together for her some day.
 

natsulian

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I think in terms of ALL the spins, Bradie may be one of, if not the best, in the business currently. All of her spins are just very centered and she rotates SOO fast. I was watching practices and none of the ladies spun as fast or as centered as her. Of course, there are other skaters who have better specific spins, like Karen's lay-back, but in terms of all-around, I like Bradie's the best. Additionally, Bradie has the most intricate and challenging spins which are greatly rewarded and reflected in the GOE and levels.
 

NAOTMAA

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It's totally nitpicking but I'm not a fan of the vocal on Bradie's FS. It feels very bland and passionless to me :shuffle: Josh Groban and Katherine Jenkins both do a beautiful pop-opera versions in Italian :cool: And I do prefer the violin to piano version. I still love the program though :)
 

Marco

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Team Karen can consider 3lutz, 3toe3toe and 2axel in the short and 3lutz2toe, 3lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 2axel3toe, 2axel-3sal, 3sal in the free in some order. I still feel like her non-jump elements and PCS can carry her home as long as she is clean. She has UR issues and should not attempt too many 3/3s.

I can see a 3axel and 4lutz from her if she works hard enough.
 

Dobre

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I definitely think it would be worth a try moving the 2nd lutz earlier. She almost always misses it. On paper, it looks logical to move the combo back; but in reality, again, she almost always misses that second lutz.
 

tylersf

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If Bradie and the other US Ladies start performing like this, start to learn how to hit quad combos, we will have a great chance against the other jumping beans around the world!
 

tylersf

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I think the 3ax and 4L are what she needs to get back in the game....
Team Karen can consider 3lutz, 3toe3toe and 2axel in the short and 3lutz2toe, 3lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 2axel3toe, 2axel-3sal, 3sal in the free in some order. I still feel like her non-jump elements and PCS can carry her home as long as she is clean. She has UR issues and should not attempt too many 3/3s.

I can see a 3axel and 4lutz from her if she works hard enough.
 

Dobre

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If Bradie and the other US Ladies start performing like this, start to learn how to hit quad combos, we will have a great chance against the other jumping beans around the world!
Or they could be injured like Tursynbaeva & Cui & Kanysheva, and we really cannot afford to lose any more top U.S. ladies at this moment in time. I'm all for going after the big jumps if you have the ability, but I'm also all for individuals valuing their own strengths and health and ability level. It's a balance.
 

natsulian

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Ting will probably be back by Nationals, but seeing as she never fully recovered and still competed, hope of her making a FULL recovery... ever is dwindling by the day. As for Hanna, she withdrew again after being given the event in China so I’m also worried about her. She started jumping again... and then she was assigned to an event China and a few days later, she withdrew. Re-injury? This has been a disastrous start to the season for both Hanna and Ting. I hope they both recover fully and skate lights out internationally. If Hanna is still out by Junior Worlds, we’ll probably see Isabelle and Kate alongside Alysa.
 

tylersf

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We are beginning to have skaters with that ability level.
Or they could be injured like Tursynbaeva & Cui & Kanysheva, and we really cannot afford to lose any more top U.S. ladies at this moment in time. I'm all for going after the big jumps if you have the ability, but I'm also all for individuals valuing their own strengths and health and ability level. It's a balance.
 

Vagabond

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I think the 3ax and 4L are what she needs to get back in the game....
:lol:

Has any female skater other than Alysa Liu ever landed both a triple axel and a quadruple jump of any kind in competition, not even necessarily at the same competition but ever in her career?
 

Debbie S

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Ting will probably be back by Nationals, but seeing as she never fully recovered and still competed, hope of her making a FULL recovery... ever is dwindling by the day.
And of course you are basing this pronouncement on your extensive medical training as well as first-hand knowledge of the situation? How about leaving your fan fiction out of this thread?
 

natsulian

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And of course you are basing this pronouncement on your extensive medical training as well as first-hand knowledge of the situation? How about leaving your fan fiction out of this thread?
I simply stated an opinion, I never said I was there to witness Ting’s injury. As for competing while injured... athletes compete while not at 100% all the time. Furthermore, she was not at 100% during her competition per her Instagram posts which she has now deleted. Do you 100% believe that TWO injuries in the span of a few months will completely heal in time for Nationals? You don’t need a doctorate degree to know that. I’m not saying Ting, who is my favorite skater at the moment, will be crippled. I’m saying that the prospects of her making a full recovery in time for Nationals is not that high. I never said it was impossible... that’s why I said HOPE. If you read my comment in its entirety, I voiced a concern, then I concluded with a hopefully statement. How is that fan fiction?
 

layman

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Team Karen can consider 3lutz, 3toe3toe and 2axel in the short and 3lutz2toe, 3lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 2axel3toe, 2axel-3sal, 3sal in the free in some order. I still feel like her non-jump elements and PCS can carry her home as long as she is clean. She has UR issues and should not attempt too many 3/3s.

I can see a 3axel and 4lutz from her if she works hard enough.
I agree 100%. As far as her UR issues...if you notice Karen springs up first, then she rotates...it's like a delay.

The successful ladies quad jumpers today start rotating on the ice (not several feet in the air like Karen does). So, for Karen to get a quad or 3-axel (she already has the spring necessary for those jumps), she will need to initiate the rotation sooner and pull in tighter. I think she can do it.
 

Debbie S

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I’m saying that the prospects of her making a full recovery in time for Nationals
You didn't say "Nationals" in your post. You said "ever". There's a difference.

In general, I don't think there's much value in theorizing and predicting when it comes to skaters' injuries. We're not privy to what's going on day to day so IMO it's best to wait for official word of any news and just hope for the best.
 

Tinami Amori

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If Bradie and the other US Ladies start performing like this, start to learn how to hit quad combos, we will have a great chance against the other jumping beans around the world!
:D so you're basically saying that you want US ladies to also become "jumping beans"? or do you mean to say "US ladies with quads are special", but "others with quads" are jumping beans?
 

Tinami Amori

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Bradie's SP - stunning programme, the dress and the choreo! Deserved her 1st in SP.

Very glad she is skating in "that style", not a "princess" or "lyrical". That was a very strong performance.

I like the style of her FS less, but she skated well (given she had only one month to recover after injury).
My problem with that version of "Cinema Paradiso" music is the "voice and lyrics".... Where did they come from? there is no singing in the film, nor the composer Ennio Morricone intended it to have words. This is an Italian film, but somebody wrote the lyrics in English??!!! and the words have no relevance to the story in the film. But it is not Tennell's fault.

I wish she did not skate to romantic/lyrical stuff, she looks so much better with "modern" or "tough and serious" (like Ritter Tanz from R/J). Plus that purple dress with "gray"..... I just don't see "Cinema Paradiso" in the choreo or "her look". Her costume should have resembled an Italian school-girl's dress... or young woman's clothes of that time..

She did a great job still and rightfully in 2nd (even if Alexei Mishin is having interview-fits now about "being underscored because the event was in America and in America judges over-score Americans". i'll post a translation later).

For Bradie, given her FS music is "standard lyrical" which so many girls skate, she needs a more colorful image! different color dress, slightly more pronounced movements, more "european style" hair. Even with english lyrics, she needs an Italian Style dress... it would make her stand out more.
 

Sylvia

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OK, well they missed it. It's a learning experience. I mean ultimately it is Bradie & her coach's job to protest, and they didn't; but they will probably check every protocol carefully from here on out. Regardless, this was a much better start to Bradie's GP season than last year. Good for her.
Excerpt from this article that was published yesterday (scroll down to section titled Skaters, check your protocols):
Not only did the 21-year-old Tennell have quads to contend with, but a scoring error by the technical panel shaved several points off of her free skate. The error had no impact on the Skate America standings, but points earned during Grand Prix events are used to break ties to decide who competes at the Grand Prix Final.
Tennell opened her free skate with her most difficult element, a triple Lutz-triple toe loop combination. She executed the same combination in the second half of her program, but the panel identified it as a triple-double.
U.S. Figure Skating did go to the ISU prior to the award ceremony and was told that since the elements had been authorized at the end of Tennell’s free skate performance, an appeal was not permitted because it was not an incorrect mathematical calculation and it was not an incorrect data input. Her score stood.
Apparently, USFS rules would allow a data input error to be corrected within a time limit (before the award ceremony), but the ISU (Rule 123 Section 4Ab) does not.

ETA:

However, ISU Rule 123 4Ac does state that the Referee has the authority to correct "wrong data input by the Data Operator provided the Technical Controller and both Technical Specialists agree that there was an input error."

I noticed the 3rd paragraph I quoted above has since been revised in the article:
Per ISU rules, an appeal is not permitted except in the case of an incorrect mathematical calculation; wrong identification of an element does not qualify. The rules do allow for a correction to be made, however, when an element misidentification is brought to the referee’s attention prior to the award ceremony. A spokesman for U.S. Figure Skating said that the organization did go to the ISU prior to the award ceremony, and was only told that an appeal was not permitted. No correction was made and Tennell’s score stood.
 
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Debbie S

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So what would be a data input error?
I guess they mean if something was wrong with the software and it used the wrong amount of points for the called element. The RD scores changed several hours after the event b/c it was discovered the points assigned to the pattern step sequence were incorrect. But it's ridiculous not to allow a correction when there was a clear calling error. At the Novice Men's FS at Nats in 2016, one skater's triple was mistakenly called a double, the coach saw it when protocols were posted at the end of the event, filed a protest and the call and score were changed. In that case, it did affect the result. It sounds like the ISU wouldn't allow a change even if the result were affected. (Wait until this happens at the Olys. :shuffle: )
 

SkateFanBerlin

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They only fix mistake if someone complains? Onlg place on planet where if YOU realize your mistake you're not allowed to fix it. Crazy.
 
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