U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[floskate]

Before, jumps were not a big part of women's skating, in part because they competed wearing long skirts. As the skirts got shorter in the 1920s and 30s, the jumps became more important and the skaters got younger.

Cecilia Colledge

at 1936 Europeans. She was 15, right behind Henie at the big events that year, and fairly dominant for the next three years, along with Megan Taylor.

Together they

Taylor would have been 13 when she medaled at 1934 Worlds.

Daphne Walker, another British skater, followed in their footsteps winning 1939 European and World bronze around age 14.

Carol Heiss

Heiss was 4th at 1953 Worlds, age 13, and 2nd in 1955 at 15.

Elaine Zayak won silver as a 14-year-old at 1981 Worlds and gold a year later at 15.....

Thank you. I was just going to post exactly this. In addition, Cecilia also had international success before 1936. She was 12 when she won the 1933 European silver medal and 14 when she won the World silver medal behind Henie in 1935. As you mentioned, Megan was 13 when she was second at 1934 Worlds behind Henie. Hilde Holovsky was also 13 when she won World silver in 1931.

Little girls achieving great things on competitive ice has a long history!

 

[Frau Muller]

Teenagers really are not new at all to skating. I remember the American baby ballerinas. Not all materialized to full potential. Am happy Alysa won and she absolutely deserved it. Doesn’t mean I can’t think she might not have that spectacular jump at 15. She’s tiny. Just like the Russian babies are tiny and will grow. Will they keep the jumps that get them scoring high? Time will tell.

I remember when Tracy Wainman of Canada won her first title in ‘81 at or maybe even younger than Alysa is now. Same arguments as now. The only difference was Tracy’s scintillating Personality & natural charisma on the ice. Then her body began to change and she lost her title the next year. All of the smiling and perky cuteness in the world couldn’t save her...although, to her credit, she came back in ‘86, as an adult, to win a second national title.

In other words, let’s be realistic about Alysa Liu, please.

Somewhere in NY, Dick Button must be singing, “Thank heaven for little girls!”

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I do no like the idea of a private camp choosing JW team at all. I imagine a lot of skaters will skate better in private, but truly it's all about competition and who can handle it. Make it a competition too.

That reminds me of how the US Women's Gymnastics Squad was chosen for the 1992 Olympic Games.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I remember when Tracy Wainman of Canada won her first title in ‘81 at or maybe even younger than Alysa is now. Same arguments as now. The only difference was Tracy’s scintillating Personality & natural charisma on the ice. Then her body began to change and she lost her title the next year. All of the smiling and perky cuteness in the world couldn’t save her...although, to her credit, she came back in ‘86, as an adult, to win a second national title.”

Tracy Wainman had charisma for days, that's for sure.

There is also an interesting interview from Tracy with Ted Barton about her early rise to fame, the difficult intervening years, and her comeback. Wainman also touched on how different skating was for younger skaters, without the Junior Grand Prix Series they have now.

 

[Frau Muller]

Thank you. I was just going to post exactly this. In addition, Cecilia also had international success before 1936. She was 12 when she won the 1933 European silver medal and 14 when she won the World silver medal behind Henie in 1935. As you mentioned, Megan was 13 when she was second at 1934 Worlds behind Henie. Hilde Holovsky was also 13 when she won World silver in 1931.

Little girls achieving great things on competitive ice has a long history!

Then have a Kid Games, just like they have a Paralympics or Special Olympics for the physically challenged. Just create another tranche in the Olympics movement for the underaged. It’s all about fair play. Nobody who hasn’t gone through puberty should compete against an adult. It should be based on the pre-puberty and post-puberty factor, not age, as different genetic groupings mature earlier or later than others (Asians vs Latinos, for ex).

How to test for it? That would open up another can of worms. There must be a medical test for it. Hopefully, medical labs around the world would test fairly (ahum)!

 

[skatingguy]

Then have a Kid Games, just like they have a Paralympics or Special Olympics for the physically challenged. Just create another tranche in the Olympics movement for the underaged. It’s all about fair play. Nobody who hasn’t gone through puberty should compete against an adult. It should be based on the pre-puberty and post-puberty factor, not age, as different genetic groupings mature earlier or later than others (Asians vs Latinos, for ex).

They did, it's called the Youth Olympics.

 

[Frida80]

They did, it's called the Youth Olympics.

And it's next season. I'd say this time USFS will take the assignments seriously and send Alysa.

 

[Frau Muller]

They did, it's called the Youth Olympics.

Then send kids to only Youth Games but not to regular Olympics (or Worlds) until they reach puberty...but how to check or measure that without embarrassment?
Are the Youth Games under the purview of the IOC? Do they happen in conjunction with the OWG, as do the Paralympics?

 

[natsulian]

Worlds is going to be a nail biter. Mariah and Bradie know that everyone’s counting on them this season and with how much they’ve improved, it’ll be really interesting to see if they peak during Worlds. An ideal outcome would be them getting international Season’s Bests and placing in the Top 6. Bradie has the potential to place in the Top 5 should she go clean and even higher if the Russians falter. The Japanese are basically unbeatable this season because if one breaks down, the other two are clean.

 

[skatingguy]

Then send kids to only Youth Games but not to regular Olympics (or Worlds) until they reach puberty...but how to check or measure that without embarrassment?
Are the Youth Games under the purview of the IOC? Do they happen in conjunction with the OWG, as do the Paralympics?

The Youth Olympics are under the purview of the IOC, and feature athletes who are too long to complete at the Olympics. They are held in different cities, and different years from the Olympic Games.
The next Youth Olympic Winter Games are in 2020 to be held in Lausanne, Switzerland.
https://www.olympic.org/lausanne-2020

 

[Finsta]

Worlds is going to be a nail biter. Mariah and Bradie know that everyone’s counting on them this season and with how much they’ve improved, it’ll be really interesting to see if they peak during Worlds. An ideal outcome would be them getting international Season’s Bests and placing in the Top 6. Bradie has the potential to place in the Top 5 should she go clean and even higher if the Russians falter. The Japanese are basically unbeatable this season because if one breaks down, the other two are clean.

I feel Mariah is better than Bradie. She might have better placement at worlds if skate clean.

 

[AxelAnnie]

The lurking Puberty Monster(making the sign of the cross even though I'm Jewish), pew, pew

I have tried doing the Jewish Star instead of the cross (which I have been known to pull out from time to time) but I haven't found a way to STAR myself that isn't darn awkward!

 

[sk9tingfan]

I have tried doing the Jewish Star instead of the cross (which I have been known to pull out from time to time) but I haven't found a way to STAR myself that isn't darn awkward!

Yeah, we also have the issue of citing the phrase, "Knock on wood" which refers the to cross on which Jesus was crucified".

 

[VGThuy]

The Youth Olympics will give Alyssa something to look forward to with Junior Worlds. I think the USFS should send her for experience. A lot of great Olympians went there.

 

[Willin]

I feel Mariah is better than Bradie. She might have better placement at worlds if skate clean.

I think Mariah is better, but she's less consistent than Bradie, and a lot less consistent where it counts: the 3-3s and the 3Lz.

The Youth Olympics will give Alyssa something to look forward to with Junior Worlds. I think the USFS should send her for experience. A lot of great Olympians went there.

It's too bad USFS usually discounts the youth Olympics. The last few times they've sent skaters that wouldn't be expected to make an Olympic team later on. I hope they send their top young talent this time.

 

[Sylvia]

The 3rd edition of the IOC's Winter Youth Olympic Games is scheduled to run from Thursday, Jan. 9 to Wednesday Jan. 22, 2020 in Lausanne, Switzerland (don't know if the figure skating event schedule has been set). 2020 U.S. Nationals will be January 20-26 in Greensboro, NC.

It's too bad USFS usually discounts the youth Olympics. The last few times they've sent skaters that wouldn't be expected to make an Olympic team later on. I hope they send their top young talent this time.

Camden Pulkinen was sent in 2016 - it was his first-ever international competition. Rachel & Michael Parsons went in 2012.

 

[Vagabond]

Richmond’s U.S. champion figure-skater Alysa Liu, 13: ‘I don’t skate to lose’

That's a good thing.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Shakespeare and many doctors and historians would disagree .. and when wasthe last time when you checked if a female is a woman..

From Wikipedia

A woman is a female human being. The word woman is usually reserved for an adult, with girl being the usual term for a female child or adolescent.

So we can say a woman is a female but not necessarily an adult. Which, I think was the point.

I don't know how you would define maturity in skating.......it certainly is not age. (Sasha Cohen).
Immaturity could be Bradie last year as Cinderella.

There a ton of synonyms for maturity.....none in my mind, really apply. What we want to give credit for is the depth of perception of the music and choreography as expressed by each movement being executed gracefully and fully. That would mean no throw away movements. Movements that go out beyond the fingertips and toes. Best place to see this is a Sasha spiral, or a Nikodinov layback. We hope that skaters who are young will develop out of running from one movement to the next. Some get better, some don't.

Bradie improved bunches from last year.......perhaps her attention to detail & musicality have has messed up her timing (a bit) in her jumps.

Kostner is a great example of what a skater can do with hard work and understanding of what they are expressing,and how to express it.

 

[natsulian]

During Junior Worlds last season, Ting placed a respectable 7th, behind 3 Russians, 2 Japanese, and 1 South Korean. If Ting were to be sent this year and performs cleanly, she can score at least a 210 which the Japanese nor Koreans won’t touch, so the best she can get is 4th. If one of the Russians falter, she can place on the podium. As for Hanna, because she was injured during her only JGP, we don’t know how international judges will score a clean Hanna, but I’m betting somewhere between 185-200, so that places her anywhere between 5th and 7th. Ideally, if Ting places 4th and Hanna places 7th, we can get back 3 spots for Junior Worlds and all the spots for the JGP season, meaning our skaters get more international exposure. I’m not worried about Hanna going clean... Ting is a huge question mark because she’s so inconsistent. The difference between her season’s best and worst is nearly 43 points.

 

[Marco]

So happy for little dynamite Alysa. Here's hoping the puberty monster will be kind to her. She looks to be such a genuine kid. I do think the caller and judges are quite kind to her.

Bradie is probably the most consistent / competitive senior US lady for now, but 1) I would have had her behind Mariah overall; 2) the mistakes in the free really highlight the work that still needs to be done for her to be truly competitive. She doesn't quite connect and often leaves me with little to no impression of her skating at all.

It is a pity that Mariah could not seize the opportunity when Bradie makes mistakes and many others either bombed or aren't here. So close.

And what a waste for both Ting and Amber to have only skated strongly in one program. They both have such beautiful skating.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

It is a pity that Mariah could not seize the opportunity when Bradie makes mistakes and many others either bombed or aren't here. So close.

And what about Mariah's mistakes? LOL.. did we watch the same Nationals?

They both had a fall in free. And also in SP she couldn't rotate her combination.

How can she seize when she makes exactly the same mistakes?

and no 3/3 in the free.... child......

If anyone is going to lose the competitive edge, and quickly, its going to be Mariah unless she represents the Jason Brown Method instead of Rocky Mountain.

 

[lurkz2]

And what about Mariah's mistakes? LOL.. did we watch the same Nationals?

They both had a fall in free. And also in SP she couldn't rotate her combination.

How can she seize when she makes exactly the same mistakes?

and no 3/3 in the free.... child......

If anyone is going to lose the competitive edge, and quickly, its going to be Mariah unless she represents the Jason Brown Method instead of Rocky Mountain.

Was actually thinking Mariah had a lot in common with Jason being that their tech elements are still part of a process, but they have confidence in their coaching team, while their PCS are fire.

 

[Marco]

And what about Mariah's mistakes? LOL.. did we watch the same Nationals?

They both had a fall in free. And also in SP she couldn't rotate her combination.

How can she seize when she makes exactly the same mistakes?

and no 3/3 in the free.... child......

If anyone is going to lose the competitive edge, and quickly, its going to be Mariah unless she represents the Jason Brown Method instead of Rocky Mountain.

I know I know. She was last to skate. If she had landed the lutz, she would have won. Very surprised by the fall in the free. She has a relatively consistent lutz.

I do think her PCS should have been slightly higher relative to Bradie's. Also, Bradie's mistake was more severe because she fell on the first part of a 3/3 which cost her the chance at 2 clean triples.

Her biggest weakness is not having a 7th triple. She didn't even plan the sal - I wonder why. She used to do the lutz - sal combo last season, although not that successfully.

 

[Sylvia]

Reporter's Notebook articles from Nationals with U.S. ladies-related content:

Alysa Liu, Emmy Ma, Ting Cui: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...and-more-from-final-day-of-u-s-championships/

...Alysa Liu is set to be in New York for scheduled Tuesday appearances on TODAY and the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. The TODAY appearance is planned for the 8 a.m. hour.
...
“I kind of have had a tough season regarding a lot of issues – mental health, personal issues,” an emotional Ma said after her free skate.
...
“It’s one of my best programs in performance (quality) and one with the hardest jumps I’ve ever done, with the triple Lutz-triple toe loop and triple flip-half loop-triple Salchow,” Cui said. “Definitely the best program in my career probably so far.”

The article mentions the dates for U.S. Figure Skating’s Junior World Camp are Feb. 3-4.

Megan Wessenberg: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...eporters-notebook-ladies-free-skate-on-day-2/

Hanna Harrell's 'Rippon' jumps: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...ers-notebook-nathan-chen-and-more-from-day-2/

Julia Biechler on switching her focus from ice dance to singles, Heidi Munger & her I, Tonya body double filiming experience: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/01/25/u-s-championships-reporters-notebook-day-1/

 

[Bulletsdad]

Reporter's Notebook articles from Nationals with U.S. ladies-related content:

Alysa Liu, Emmy Ma, Ting Cui: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...and-more-from-final-day-of-u-s-championships/

The article mentions the dates for U.S. Figure Skating’s Junior World Camp are Feb. 3-4.

Megan Wessenberg: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...eporters-notebook-ladies-free-skate-on-day-2/

Hanna Harrell's 'Rippon' jumps: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...ers-notebook-nathan-chen-and-more-from-day-2/

Julia Biechler on switching her focus from ice dance to singles, Heidi Munger & her I, Tonya body double filiming experience: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/01/25/u-s-championships-reporters-notebook-day-1/

It's great that Alysa will be on The Today Show and Tonight Show....the more positive exposure for US Figure Skating, the better!

 

[Frau Muller]

It's great that Alysa will be on The Today Show and Tonight Show....the more positive exposure for US Figure Skating, the better!

Today already showed an initial piece this morning (8:13 Eastern), to set things up for tomorrow’s interview.

 

[Skittl1321]

Yeah, we also have the issue of citing the phrase, "Knock on wood" which refers the to cross on which Jesus was crucified".

What? Since when did knocking on wood have anything to do with Jesus?
I've never seen it cited as anything other than rooted in pagan beliefs.

 

[mag]

What? Since when did knocking on wood have anything to do with Jesus?
I've never seen it cited as anything other than rooted in pagan beliefs.

Knocking on wood: http://mentalfloss.com/article/50079/why-do-we-knock-wood

 

[Skittl1321]

Knocking on wood: http://mentalfloss.com/article/50079/why-do-we-knock-wood

That article doesn't seem to say anything about it having to do with the cross of Jesus. I'm wondering where THAT came from.

 

[mag]

That article doesn't seem to say anything about it having to do with the cross of Jesus. I'm wondering where THAT came from.

No idea. I have always thought it came from Pagan beliefs.