U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[DimaToe]

I’ll drop my thoughts into the Ting Cui battle. Generally those skaters that are are seen as “balletic” have a good port de bra. I’ve said it before, while skating (and most “artistic”) sports take from ballet, let’s not forget that skating and ballet are two completely different things. Ifyou’re going to use ballet terms to say how good or elegant a skater is don’t be shocked when somebody with more dance knowledge disagrees with you. IMO Cui is talented and has her moments of elegance, but I can also see why there are posters that aren’t going to automatically jump on the “ balletic” train, and rightfully so.

 

[olympic]

Earnest question about Alysa Liu -

Is her ability to jump and land the 3A based on true solid technique, or is she just able to whip around on the rotations due to her size.

 

[gkelly]

Earnest question about Alysa Liu -

Is her ability to jump and land the 3A based on true solid technique, or is she just able to whip around on the rotations due to her size.

Most skaters that size cannot do 3A. So obviously her ability is not solely due her to her size.

Whether she will still be able to do it when she has grown remains to be seen.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Earnest question about Alysa Liu -

Is her ability to jump and land the 3A based on true solid technique, or is she just able to whip around on the rotations due to her size.

Watching her programmes on youtube (not live) and a few videos in slow-mo and regular, it does not look like she is "whipping it around".
@ 0:27 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYdPEhm4cY
... and she also adds other 3x jumps and combos after the landing, which to me shows a solid technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SuKx7yMXTQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuUHveW-oCo

(i am glad you clarified it is an "earnest question" because there seems to be a nasty trend to find "something wrong" with people who are above others and can do something exceptional and super difficult).

 

[olympic]

I am very happy to know it's about technique, and I watched the videos posted by @Tinami Amori . You can see the great lift off on the axel and lutz in slo-mo.

 

[concorde]

Most skaters that size cannot do 3A. So obviously her ability is not solely due her to her size.

Whether she will still be able to do it when she has grown remains to be seen.

?? Most ladies cannot do a 3A regardless of size.

Alyssa is smaller than the 'average' elite Senior skater. Most Seniors are at least 4'10" but probably closer to 5ft or even a bit taller.
Unless Alyssa has grown over the summer, she is 4'8" at the very best. So tiny even by Senior elite standards but then again she is about 3 years younger than them.

I just checked the height of the ladies making the JGPF. The Russians range from 148 cm (4'10") to 154 cm (5 ft). The Japaenes lady is tall at 165 cm (5' 5").

 

[emilieh]

for height comparison, Alysa Liu with other senior ladies from regionals: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo8CCz6l9Sd/

 

[Dobre]

I just checked the height of the ladies making the JGPF. The Russians range from 148 cm (4'10") to 154 cm (5 ft). The Japaenes lady is tall at 165 cm (5' 5").

Yelim Kim is from South Korea rather than Japan. She has nice height and power when she jumps. With extra adrenaline, she just plowed that big combo into the boards once at the JGPF, and overpowered it at least once in practice. She has the combo, just seems to fly a lot faster & further sometimes than she is expecting. She grew quite a lot between her first and second junior season but seems to have adapted well after an adjustment period last year.

 

[Debbie S]

Local news segment on Ting Cui: https://www.wbaltv.com/article/exci...ar-old-figure-skater-from-pikesville/25604159

 

[aftershocks]

let’s not forget that skating and ballet are two completely different things.

Here ye, here ye x 1000! ITA. Ballet training is very helpful for skaters to gain body awareness and to develop good posture, elegant & expressive arm carriage, flexibility and a desirable aesthetic look on the ice. But there is so much that's completely different between ballet and figure skating. Therefore trying to claim which young junior 'still developing' skater is so-called 'more balletic,' is rather useless. There's so much more to figure skating than balletic influences.

 

[concorde]

Yelim Kim is from South Korea rather than Japan.

Oops!

 

[aftershocks]

... a nasty trend to find "something wrong" with people who are above others and can do something exceptional and super difficult).

Ah, and an equally 'nasty' trend to over-inflate and aggrandize the talents and accomplishments of certain junior skaters. I say appreciate juniors for what they excel at and are able to do, and hope for them to be guided to grow and develop to their highest athletic/artistic potential, if desiring to continue in the sport of figure skating is what they truly want. It's also unfortunately a trend that young athletes aren't always able to maintain their learned technique after experiencing growth spurts. They have to adapt and readjust to changed bodies, not to mention dealing with injuries and rehab which impact their forward momentum.

 

[missing]

Carly Gold just retweeted the following. Good for her!

[B]Størmerlige Films[/B]‏ @[B]StormerligeFilm[/B]




#IcePrincessDocumentary continues to assemble an exceptional production team as we welcome the talented @CarlyCGold as Director of Photography. An exceptional artist & champion #figureskater combined into the perfect creative package. #zahralari #LiveYourStory #DreamBigPrincess

 

[layman]

Anything for an edge. Ballet training can't hurt a skater (and it certainly makes the skating nicer to look at). When it's close (technically) as it often is in skating (Oksana vs Nancy or Urmanov vs Stojko) ballet training can make all the difference.

 

[layman]

Another example would be 7 triple Kwan in 1995 was not even close to Lu Chen, but 7 triple plus line, turnout, extension, posture and artistic expressiveness Kwan in 1996 overtook her (barely). Anything for an edge.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It's also unfortunately a trend that young athletes aren't always able to maintain their learned technique after experiencing growth spurts. They have to adapt and readjust to changed bodies, not to mention dealing with injuries and rehab which impact their forward momentum.

at least they tried. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxx8RC4iQvI

 

[toddlj]

For anyone still wondering if Nagasu or Wagner might show up at Nats, looks like the answer is no. But Chen and Gold are still on the list. http://2019uschampionships.com/athletes/

 

[haribobo]

Also Heidi Munger is listed! Good for her! Must be that Ting Cui was techically byed after all.

 

[Debbie S]

Also Heidi Munger is listed! Good for her! Must be that Ting Cui was techically byed after all.

There are actually 6 Senior ladies from Easterns (Emmy Ma also included). I'm wondering if Megan was also given a bye (except SA is not even close to the bye timeframe) or if there is an error.

 

[Sylvia]

My guess is that both Ting Cui and Megan Wessenberg were given byes after the fact since they ended up with 3 internationals apiece this fall (with the 3rd international -- Tallinn Trophy for Ting and Golden Spin for Megan -- taking place after Easterns).

 

[Marco]

For anyone still wondering if Nagasu or Wagner might show up at Nats, looks like the answer is no. But Chen and Gold are still on the list. http://2019uschampionships.com/athletes/

Not surprising, but still

To no longer see Mirai and Ashley on the list is like having the whole past decade taken away.

 

[aftershocks]

Not surprising, but still

To no longer see Mirai and Ashley on the list is like having the whole past decade taken away.

Everything passes away. We are in a time of change, and everything is always changing. I guess there's times when change is just more noticeable. Ashley and Mirai gave it their all and they both never gave up in the face of tremendous obstacles. That's what matters most!

 

[Jammers]

Not surprising, but still

To no longer see Mirai and Ashley on the list is like having the whole past decade taken away.

It's time for a new generation of ladies to carry US skating into the future. Russia and Japan are not relying on skaters from a decade ago to get them to the top and that's why the US is so far behind now. Time to stop looking in the past and look to the future.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Well the problem in the US it seems to be a lack of little girls wanting to be skaters. Or perhaps parents just can't afford it. And unfortunately, the girls who do skate aren't as naturally talented or have other issues despite the talent.

It's an exaggeration but it's like for every 12 Russian and Japanese girl who wants to skate there is only 2 American girls. Enthusiasm is a major issue on the American side.

 

[toddlj]

Or perhaps parents just can't afford it.

I think this is the huge part of it. Japan and Russian federations fund their talented youngsters. In the US, they have to have wealthy parents, or do some real scrambling with crowdsourcing and finding donors. Highly athletic/driven kids end up being encouraged to pursue less-expensive and more accessible endeavors.

 

[Jammers]

Why is the US so good in ladies gymnastics then? The government doesn't fund them either and i'm sure it cost a lot to be a top gymnast but their seems to never be a lack of talented girls ready to take over from the last World champion.

 

[VGThuy]

Maybe because gymnastics is more accessible, finding a gym might be easier for logistical reasons, it’s more of a team sport, can be seen as a real group activity despite it being individualized, it’s something that may start out a bit cheap and people let their kids do for recreation sort of like youth soccer until they start getting serious, it has a real college scholarship trek, etc.

 

[gkelly]

It's an exaggeration but it's like for every 12 Russian and Japanese girl who wants to skate there is only 2 American girls. Enthusiasm is a major issue on the American side.

Where do you get your numbers from?

There are thousands of American girls who skate competitively (and even more who train regularly but not to compete at qualifying levels in singles skating).

But a relatively low percentage of the competitors who have the interest, the physical gifts, and the resources (money, ice time, expert coaching, etc.) to aim for national and international standards. It takes all of the above to get there.

And for those who drop out or readjust their goals as preteens and teens, it's often not lack of enthusiasm that dissuades them from the big dreams they started with as little girls.

 

[toddlj]

Maybe because gymnastics is more accessible, finding a gym might be easier for logistical reasons, it’s more of a team sport, can be seen as a real group activity despite it being individualized, it’s something that may start out a bit cheap and people let their kids do for recreation sort of like youth soccer until they start getting serious, it has a real college scholarship trek, etc.

Agreed. Most public schools have gyms, and a lot of schools and community programs have beginning gymnastics as an inexpensive offering. Really young kids who have obvious natural talent get noticed; and college scholarships are available for them later if they excel. (The same is true for dance, though that's not a "sport." If dance was a sport, the US team would be very competitive I think.)

 

[Spun Silver]

I think this is the huge part of it. Japan and Russian federations fund their talented youngsters. In the US, they have to have wealthy parents, or do some real scrambling with crowdsourcing and finding donors. Highly athletic/driven kids end up being encouraged to pursue less-expensive and more accessible endeavors.

I know this is often said, but Mirai, Starr and Bradie are all top US skaters who don't come from wealthy families. Neither did Agnes Zawadski or, if I'm not mistaken Ashley Wagner, nor Nancy Kerrigan, nor Tonya Harding. This is just off the top of my head. I don't know how they do it. Maybe coaches or rinks give such talented kids a break.