U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

[sk9tingfan]

I wondered the same. Her PCS total is very low. Then I noticed there are only 4 categories not 5 like jr/sr. She would get another 4 or 5 points with a fifth category.

Is there a possibility that a 3A would have been prohibited at this level as well? (duh... I should have read the original comment...mea culpa) I also was surprised at her score,

 

[Frida80]

It’s allowed. She landed it today. Ninth lady in history. Third American. Youngest of all.

https://twitter.com/moonnyan1/status/1025025949958529024

 

[Willin]

@Frida80 But it's banned in the SP, right? I thought the lower levels had strict requirements for that.

Either way, it was UR. She can do a clean one, so hopefully with more practice she'll get it called cleanly in international competition!

 

[Frida80]

@Frida80 But it's banned in the SP, right? I thought the lower levels had strict requirements for that.

Either way, it was UR. She can do a clean one, so hopefully with more practice she'll get it called cleanly in international competition!

You’re right. There’s no 3A or 3-3 in the SP in Adv Novice. However, Alysa did rotate her first 3A. They called it clean.

 

[Sylvia]

Excerpted from the Asian Open Trophy competition thread in Kiss & Cry...

Advanced Novice Girls - USA results:
GOLD - ALYSA LIU USA 138.45 1 1
5 Indi CHA USA 108.15 5 4
6 ELLEN SLAVICEK USA 96.05 7 6

FS scores:
1 ALYSA LIU USA 88.20 48.70 40.00 6.33 6.08 6.42 6.17 0.50 #21
4 Indi CHA USA 70.05 34.82 35.73 5.58 5.42 5.58 5.75 0.50 #17
6 ELLEN SLAVICEK USA 60.65 26.88 34.27 5.67 5.25 5.17 5.33 0.50 #15
FS protocols: http://www.fsatresults.com/AOFST2018/Scores/AdvancedNoviceGirls_FS_Scores.pdf
Note: Alysa's 2T (in combo with 3F) wasn't counted because only 2 jump combinations or sequences are allowed in Adv. Novice FS (6 passes total) and she already had landed 3A+2T and 3Lz+3T.

ETA link to Alysa Liu's FS: http://www.meipai.com/media/1031228700
(@rosewood posted in the K&C section that this was the "first ever 3A done in ISU's international Novice A competition in ladies' field.")

Junior Ladies Short Program - USA resullts:
1 Grabiella Gabriella IZZO USA 60.92 34.84 26.08 6.50 6.25 6.50 6.67 6.67 0.00 #14
3 Ashley LIN USA 53.79 30.33 24.46 6.33 5.83 6.17 6.08 6.17 1.00 #10
Protocols: http://www.fsatresults.com/AOFST2018/Scores/JuniorLadies_SP_Scores.pdf

 

[euterpe]

Note that Japan's Hana YOSHIDA also went for 3a in the Novice Ladies' FS at the Asian Open. She fell on it, but it was scored as rotated. Then she went on to land 7 more triples, but 5 of those were UR.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Note that Japan's Hana YOSHIDA also went for 3a in the Novice Ladies' FS at the Asian Open. She fell on it, but it was scored as rotated. Then she went on to land 7 more triples, but 5 of those were UR.

Wow, this is novice you say????

Do you think the body will sustain itself when they become seniors? After all that wear and tear as a novice? And then puberty?

Will be interesting to see who becomes seniors with longevity.

 

[Sylvia]

This is the second time Alysa has competed against Japan's Hanna Yoshida in this calendar year. Re-posting what I wrote this past February in the previous U.S. Ladies news thread after Challenge Cup in The Hague:

2018 Junior champ Alysa LIU, 12, won the silver medal in Advanced Novice Ladies with a total score of 129.78.
She won the SP (2A, 3F, 3Lz<+2T) and was 2nd in the FS (2A, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2T, 3Lo<, 3Lz, 3F) to the winner, Japan's Novice A champion [Hanna Yoshida] who scored 134.77 total (note: Japan sent all 3 of their Novice A medalists to this comp. so this was a competitive field for Alysa).

Neither had the 3A in their repertoire back in February -- link to their FS protocols from that competition in NED: http://kunstrijden.knsb.nl/2017-2018/20180222/TheH220218_LadiesAdvancedNovice_FS_Scores.pdf

ETA: I'm glad to see USFS spending the money to send their young skaters to developmental competitions like Asian Open Trophy (this is the second year in a row) so they can face tough competition.

 

[WillyElliot]

Wow, this is novice you say????

Do you think the body will sustain itself when they become seniors? After all that wear and tear as a novice? And then puberty?

Will be interesting to see who becomes seniors with longevity.

I do not think longevity will be very common anymore. So I just enjoy the great skating while they can do it. The 2022 OGM is probably some 12 y/o we have not even heard of yet.

 

[Vagabond]

She would get another 4 or 5 points with a fifth category.

Her lowest PCS score was 5.83, and the others were in the sixes. Assuming corridor judging and not having seen the video, I think she would have gotten another six points or so. Very impressive.

 

[Vagabond]

@Frida80 But it's banned in the SP, right? I thought the lower levels had strict requirements for that.

Either way, it was UR. She can do a clean one, so hopefully with more practice she'll get it called cleanly in international competition!

She did do a clean one. In combination. With positive GOE.

 

[UGG]

I don't really get the point of trying a 3A at the novice level. I imagine landing the jump is completely different as an 18 year old than a 12 year old. It just seems like a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.

As far as longevity...remember when Caroline Zhang was crushing everyone on the JPG was was the next coming of Kwan? She never even made the world team. And then you have Bradie Tennell who no one ever heard of was the best US lady this year at 20 years old. No names are winning the Olympics, there is a new Russian prodigy dominating the season every year. I truly miss the days of great rivalries between US Ladies. When I started watching skating there was Kristi/Tonya/Nancy. Then Michelle and Tara. Michelle and Sasha. There was even a Kimmie/Emily "rivalry" for a year and a half. Gracie/Ashley was pretty entertaining.

The US lades this year were so boring. Mirai has been on the scene since 2007 and has not had a rivalry since her Jr days with Zhang. Karen Chen is a hot mess. Bradie was like a default national champion.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[VGThuy]

I mean couldn't you say the same of every jump novices do that they will do as seniors including double axels and other triples? Twelve year-old Kwan was doing all the triples and a year later was almost on the Olympic team. Learning those jumps early helped her longevity.

 

[Willin]

Looking at the scores, Alyssa would've won the Advanced Novice boys event by 20 points! Holy moly! I'm trying so hard not to overhype her or jump on the hype train in case something happens down the road, but it's hard.

@Frida80 @Vagabond I didn't see that first 3A on the protocol! Good for her! Now to get it consistently rotated.

@UGG As @VIETgrlTerifa said, skaters have been doing triples at that age for a long time, so I don't know if I think it would be as detrimental as quads at that age. (Then again, skaters don't exactly advertise their joint replacements or post-retirement joint problems so who knows) I think starting that young will be good for consistency and giving time for technique tweaking as needed, but who knows...

In other news, after the SP in Junior Ladies Gabriella Izzo is leading by a little over a point (score = 60.92). Ashley Lin is in third with a score of 53.79. It was interesting to see that because I remember Lin being so hyped a couple years ago and rarely hearing Izzo's name brought up. It will be interesting to see what trajectories their careers follow down the road.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I don't really get the point of trying a 3A at the novice level. I imagine landing the jump is completely different as an 18 year old than a 12 year old. It just seems like a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.

As far as longevity...remember when Caroline Zhang was crushing everyone on the JPG was was the next coming of Kwan? She never even made the world team. And then you have Bradie Tennell who no one ever heard of was the best US lady this year at 20 years old. No names are winning the Olympics, there is a new Russian prodigy dominating the season every year. I truly miss the days of great rivalries between US Ladies. When I started watching skating there was Kristi/Tonya/Nancy. Then Michelle and Tara. Michelle and Sasha. There was even a Kimmie/Emily "rivalry" for a year and a half. Gracie/Ashley was pretty entertaining.

The US lades this year were so boring. Mirai has been on the scene since 2007 and has not had a rivalry since her Jr days with Zhang. Karen Chen is a hot mess. Bradie was like a default national champion.

I really liked your first two paragraphs.....

not your third.

I dont think Ladies Nats were boring at all, BECAUSE of things like Bradie coming from nowhere, and Mirai teasing a 3 axel all season.... Ash getting stiffed over Karen was frustrating for me, true.

I do wonder how someone at 11/12 doing a 3 axel now will be 4/5 yrs from now though.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't really get the point of trying a 3A at the novice level. I imagine landing the jump is completely different as an 18 year old than a 12 year old. It just seems like a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.

1. It lays a foundation. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva was doing them in practice at about that age. Tonya Harding was doing them in practice when she was slightly older. Mao Asada was landing them in Juniors when she was fourteen; I suspect she started training them when she was younger.

2. If she can do them at 16, keep the rest of her jumps, and improve her PCS as most top skaters do, she might be a World medalist.

3. Personal satisfaction.

 

[aftershocks]

If bodies hold up, perhaps. It's a crapshoot. Too much too soon, growing pains, injuries, burnout. There's not a lot of opportunities, and so the narrow window is hard to break through for many. We'll see.

I also think we've had quite a number of talented U.S. ladies over the years, who simply had some competitive fire drawbacks. There has got to be strong self-belief, grit and desire, along with luck and talent. So, as I said, we'll see what the new crop brings.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Another mistaken call by technical panel. I for one thought she was going to come to a standstill skating into it. Very slow skater. With all of these bogus missed UR calls, what is even the point of a technical panel? Either that or they deliberately ignored it.

 

[Vagabond]

If bodies hold up, perhaps. It's a crapshoot. Too much too soon, growing pains, injuries, burnout. There's not a lot of opportunities, and so the window is hard to break through for many.

Personal satisfaction goes a long way. I suspect that Tiffany Chin, who was landing clean triple axels in practice when she was 14 or 15, and Josée Chouinard, who developed a reliable triple axel long after she retired from competition would agree. If Alysa Liu can do what Chin and Chouinard didnt, and land the jump in competition, more power to her!

 

[Maximillian]

I think it has to do with the course of development, I would assume when you're a 12 year old once you've mastered one triple you go to the next and then depending on your hit ratio you put it in your program and this continues on. I think training day in day out, there always has to be a dangling carrot and Alysa just happened to develop quickly enough so that the 3A became feasible in terms of her development. Whether it's hard on her body, time will tell, but to be honest, I know of more ladies who seem to be done in by the loop, than any other jump, so... It's the same in gymnastics, I know Jordyn Wieber had an Amanar (extremely difficult vault) years before she was competing as a senior. Some people questioned it, but I think she competed it because she could...

 

[oleada]

If she’s landing the 3A in practice reliably, why not include it in the program? Good for her. I thought it looked rotated enough to get credit.

That said, I think her skating skills could use some work (but what 12 year old doesn’t?) and I wonder how her jumps will hold up as she grows because the technique seems rather wippy , for lack of a better term.

 

[mag]

I would assume when you're a 12 year old once you've mastered one triple you go to the next and then depending on your hit ratio you put it in your program and this continues on.

This was how it was done when my dd starting skating. Now, it is much less linear. Sure you learn singles first, probably sort of in order. Then axel. Then you start with double sal, toe, and loop. As soon as you have axel, you are working on axel into backspin, then axel single loop, then axel loop loop. All awhile you are working on double sal, toe, and loop. Once you have the 2lo it goes on the end of the axel and also you work lo+lo. The flip and the lutz are worked on in practice often before the other three are consistent. Kids often start working on 2A before they have consistent flips and lutzes. If a skate has a good 2A, why not work on 3A?

 

[her grace]

In other news, after the SP in Junior Ladies Gabriella Izzo is leading by a little over a point (score = 60.92). Ashley Lin is in third with a score of 53.79. It was interesting to see that because I remember Lin being so hyped a couple years ago

Ashley Lin was "so hyped"? She's generally only discussed in the context of competitions, and those have been pretty fair evaluations of both Lin's strengths and weaknesses. See, e.g., discussion of 2016 JGP. Certainly, she has never been hyped like Gold or Liu, or even to the extent of Andrews and Cui.

 

[Willin]

@her grace Maybe not on skating forums, but certainly The Skating Lesson hyped her up for Twitter/Facebook fans.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't really get the point of trying a 3A at the novice level. I imagine landing the jump is completely different as an 18 year old than a 12 year old. It just seems like a lot of unnecessary wear and tear.

Who said that "18-year old" is the standard for sports just because "18" is a mark in many countries for administrative purposes? Why such preoccupation with "18"? girls transfer into physical maturity differently, individually, many factors affect.. Maybe "sports" have their own "timeline"? Maybe figure skating in terms of technical possibilities reached such a level where "the maximum" can be achieved between 13 and 16? Then why not admit that it is 13 to 16 for "high level competition"?

I don't buy an argument that "girls landing jumps diff. at 18 than at 12".... so what? why not say "girls land jumps diff. at 30 than at 18"?

As far as longevity...

Maybe "longevity" is overrated.. Perhaps some people don't "marry for life", "pick a sport for life", "choose a career for life"..... Perhaps people see their lives as a series of segments and stories, which start and finish hopefully satisfactory.

Perhaps one sees "sports" as just one stage in life and hopes to reach maximum, Olympic medal is one... And then go on to the next stage, college, career, other sports..... What's better than to win "the highest possible" between 13 and 15 (maybe 16/18) and to then go to the Best University in the country? Sarah Hughes, Debbie Thomas.. And to then (hypothetically) become the Best Golfer, or Best Yachtsmen, and then buy a series of properties and become a Real Estate giant? and then learn to paint or sculpt and become a commercial artist?

Why should "a given sport" have "longevity"? is that fans' wish? because it maybe NOT BE an athlete's wish... An athlete may want to just "get that Gold" and move on to the next Project in life.

I truly miss the days of great rivalries between US Ladies.

There is still RIVALRY between US ladies, very strong rivalry.. . Perhaps what changed is that at the int'l level US girls at present are not "competing among themselves" for the top 3 places on the podium.

So what i am reading in your post is that you're missing "US ladies int'l podium domination"..... well, maybe russians heard once too often from american fans that "Irina is a truck driver" ..

 

[aftershocks]

Personal satisfaction goes a long way. I suspect that Tiffany Chin, who was landing clean triple axels in practice when she was 14 or 15, and Josée Chouinard, who developed a reliable triple axel long after she retired from competition would agree. If Alysa Liu can do what Chin and Chouinard didnt, and land the jump in competition, more power to her!

Personal satisfaction is fine @Vagabond. The over-arching concern is how to navigate a successful career for a talented youngster in the current era of pushing skaters to achieve more and more technical feats, when their equipment is so outdated. It's been a good thing that more attention is being paid to diet & nutrition, and to preventative fitness, as well as to state-of-the-art physical therapy and rehab when surgeries are required. But more attention also needs to be paid to experimenting with the makeup of the ice surface itself. It may not be possible to develop a less unforgiving surface, but efforts at least need to be made. And a no-brainer is continuing to find ways to improve skate boot technology and manufacturing. Not enough is being done.

Of course technological advances and solutions will take time and thus can't fully benefit the current generation. But actually focusing more substantially on these efforts in a major way now will ultimately benefit everyone. The sport is not placing any emphasis on this at all. They seem to simply accept the downside of major injuries and/or accumulative stress on skaters' bodies. Many skaters have to deal with major surgery during their career, and/or when they retire may end up facing reconstructive surgeries at young ages.

And that's why I say in many instances the sport actually eats it's young. Or uses them and then throws them away, and moves on to the next crop of bright young things. Sure, there is more attention being paid to the physical, emotional, financial and career needs of athletes, as I said earlier. But it's not really enough, and the emphasis is not being directed in the most beneficial ways. Plus, there's simply no leadership vision involved.

TSL's Dave Lease really has a nerve suggesting caution (in the latest TSL episode) regarding all the attention and focus being placed on Alysa Liu. Dave is the one who played a role in hyping Liu's talent (even if he was being slightly tongue-in-cheek at the time). However, I think it's absolutely true that the people around Alysa need to be proceeding with caution, and not simply pushing her forward too far too fast because she's being given so many opportunities. Slow it down and think about what's going to be best for Alysa's success, health, and well-being long term. Does she really need to be pushed to senior level this quickly? Why not try to make sure she's developing properly on the technical side and not learning bad habits in the interest of putting the 3-axel out there time after time with URs that aren't called? What's the point of U.S. judges not calling the URs? Liu will simply end up facing harsher judgments and no coddling from international judges down the road.

ETA:
Chin and Chouinard may have practiced the 3-axel and felt good about themselves for pushing the boundaries, but I don't recall either of them landing it in competition. So the personal satisfaction might have given them pleasure and taught them things about themselves, which is fine. But OTOH, they may have sustained injuries in the process which hampered their careers overall. I think both of their situations are completely different from what's currently facing Alysa Liu in this era. The game of figure skating has completely changed. It's a different landscape entirely. It would behoove the sport to take note of the past though in order to learn lessons for the present that can help chart the future. But in regard to TPTB who control this sport making balanced and wise decisions, I am so not holding my breath.

 

[aftershocks]

As far as ages when jumps should be taught and trained, I think those unnecessary arguments distract from common sense. Not every athlete develops at the same rate or possesses the same talent. Therefore training and jump-related decisions have to be for the most part an individual process. The ISU's guidelines should not be overly restrictive.

In general, I think the current age rule is fine. Or they could move it up a bit slightly to age 16 perhaps. But it seems fine where it is currently. The important thing in my estimation is simply to allow young skaters with phenomenal talent to continue to learn, grow, and to gain valuable experience as juniors while working on their weaknesses. And when they move up to seniors, stop over-rushing them to top step of podium when they have weak areas that require attention. Utilize better and fairer scoring judgement. I personally don't think it's necessary to move the age range to 18, as much as it's necessary for the judges to learn how to score skaters properly and to stop manipulating PCS for placements.

But all of these issues are an uphill battle in terms of satisfactory resolution, especially since the sport is in the midst of a huge overall transition, which has been in process for awhile. The wrangling and lack of leadership is the cause of much of the heated controversial state of affairs. The politics and the country conflicts and personality conflicts among federations and ISU officials does not help matters. But none of this is new. It's been going on in different ways since the sport began. I don't see any light coming through at the end of the tunnel now, nor in the near future.

 

[UGG]

Who said that "18-year old" is the standard for sports just because "18" is a mark in many countries for administrative purposes? Why such preoccupation with "18"? girls transfer into physical maturity differently, individually, many factors affect.. Maybe "sports" have their own "timeline"? Maybe figure skating in terms of technical possibilities reached such a level where "the maximum" can be achieved between 13 and 16? Then why not admit that it is 13 to 16 for "high level competition"?

I don't buy an argument that "girls landing jumps diff. at 18 than at 12".... so what? why not say "girls land jumps diff. at 30 than at 18"?


Maybe "longevity" is overrated.. Perhaps some people don't "marry for life", "pick a sport for life", "choose a career for life"..... Perhaps people see their lives as a series of segments and stories, which start and finish hopefully satisfactory.

Perhaps one sees "sports" as just one stage in life and hopes to reach maximum, Olympic medal is one... And then go on to the next stage, college, career, other sports..... What's better than to win "the highest possible" between 13 and 15 (maybe 16/18) and to then go to the Best University in the country? Sarah Hughes, Debbie Thomas.. And to then (hypothetically) become the Best Golfer, or Best Yachtsmen, and then buy a series of properties and become a Real Estate giant? and then learn to paint or sculpt and become a commercial artist?

Why should "a given sport" have "longevity"? is that fans' wish? because it maybe NOT BE an athlete's wish... An athlete may want to just "get that Gold" and move on to the next Project in life.



There is still RIVALRY between US ladies, very strong rivalry.. . Perhaps what changed is that at the int'l level US girls at present are not "competing among themselves" for the top 3 places on the podium.

So what i am reading in your post is that you're missing "US ladies int'l podium domination"..... well, maybe russians heard once too often from american fans that "Irina is a truck driver" ..

I am not sure how you "read" that in my post, considering I did not say it. There is no rivalry between any of the US Ladies today. Gracie and Ashley were the last real "rivalry where they were trading US titles as co-favorites and being the two realistic shots at a World Podium finish for the US.

I watch skating when it is on and I like it but you gave way to much though into my post for how little it is a part of my life LOL. There is nothing more to be taken from my post than what I wrote.

 

[Tinami Amori]

There is no rivalry between any of the US Ladies today. Gracie and Ashley were the last real "rivalry where they were trading US titles as co-favorites and being the two realistic shots at a World Podium finish for the US.

No rivalry between US ladies today? are you serious? you need to tell that to US ladies during next Nationals..

Having a "national podium rivalry" and "realistic shot at the World podium" are two different issues and goals. I stand by my opinion, you miss "US ladies' shot a world podium", not "rivalry between them"... because "between them" there is plenty of rivalry", as making the Olympic team this past year, for example. I mean, you're free to want what you want.... just pointing out that US Ladies do compete for US title and medals, VERY strongly.

 

[UGG]

No rivalry between US ladies today? are you serious? you need to tell that to US ladies during next Nationals..

Having a "national podium rivalry" and "realistic shot at the World podium" are two different issues and goals. I stand by my opinion, you miss "US ladies' shot a world podium", not "rivalry between them"... because "between them" there is plenty of rivalry", as making the Olympic team this past year, for example. I mean, you're free to want what you want.... just pointing out that US Ladies do compete for US title and medals, VERY strongly.

Yes but at this point, anyone can win nationals at any time. There are no "favorites" like back in the day- Kristie/ Tonya, Michelle/Tara, Michelle/Sasha, Ashley/Gracie. Obviously everyone wants to do well but that is different than a rivalry. Maybe we think of the term differently.