U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

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Frida80

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Did Starr or her team snub Dave or Jonathan somehow? J/K, I know they don't need a reason to put skaters down.
He's just an jerk and likes to put down everyone. I can't stand him. I have no idea why he hates so many people that have done nothing to him. I'm all for constructive criticism. But Dave is just a joke.
 

Carolla5501

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He's just an jerk and likes to put down everyone. I can't stand him. I have no idea why he hates so many people that have done nothing to him. I'm all for constructive criticism. But Dave is just a joke.
If you are not one of his "pets" assume you will be abused. It's kind of like some posters on here to think the way to make "their" favorites look good is to trash talk other skaters LOL! Sadly some of us never leave behind the behaviors of spoiled pre-teens.


Too bad posters on here keep encouraging him by listening to the Trashy Skating Lesson. If we ignore people like that they go away and find some other sport to abuse!
 

GullyGirl84

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People who take Dave seriously should also remember how many of his predictions were inaccurate, how he said at certain points that Ashley, Adam, Max, Mirai, etc. should all quit and then these skaters went on to reach heights of their respective careers (plus, he complained so much about how USFS was sending Bradie to junior worlds, and said that she should just use skating to put on her resume for college and maybe try out for Disney on Ice or something...now she's an Olympic medalist ;)).
 

Frida80

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People who take Dave seriously should also remember how many of his predictions were inaccurate, how he said at certain points that Ashley, Adam, Max, Mirai, etc. should all quit and then these skaters went on to reach heights of their respective careers (plus, he complained so much about how USFS was sending Bradie to junior worlds, and said that she should just use skating to put on her resume for college and maybe try out for Disney on Ice or something...now she's an Olympic medalist ;)).
That’s the thing. None of here taking him seriously at all. But some people outside this forum sadly do. They think because Aljona agrees to an interview, he’s some sort of expert. But he hits so far below the belt. It’s digusting.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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People like Dave remind me that it's a great thing skaters (and other artists/performers/creatives) zone out naysayers and don't listen every time somebody who believes they are smarter and better than the people they are commenting on tells them to hang it up or that their time has passed.
 

aftershocks

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Did Starr or her team snub Dave or Jonathan somehow? J/K, I know they don't need a reason to put skaters down.
Nope, Starr is an African-American skater (which is rather a rare phenomenon especially at the top levels of figure skating) and Dave & Jonathan unconsciously or consciously automatically came at her, her mother, and her programs with their snooty noses in the air. Some people knee-jerk think they are superior to you if your skin happens to have a lot of melanin in it. Meanwhile ironically, Dave has also been repeatedly discussing the benefits of melatonin, a substance which is bottled melanin connected to melanin production in the pineal gland. And plenty of people love to have a nice tan, as long as they aren't considered to be part of the so-called 'black race,' which is in reality a nonexistent entity. There are different tribes or 'ethnic groups' (another label), but only the human race. However, we are stuck with the terminology created to divide the masses. :drama:

It's kind of funny that science knows how great and protective a substance melanin is. Darker-skinned people have the most of it, and they are also the most culturally discriminated against down through recent centuries. That's the world we live in. What else is new(s). :COP:

If they weren't actually going to talk about Starr's skating and give her some credit for her obvious talent, then they should have kept their mouths shut.
 
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Sylvia

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I enjoy both of Starr Andrews' programs at Asian Trophy. The fp has the potential to be great, but it needs more work on polishing and bringing out the unique flavor of the African-themed musical details.
Starr recently answered a question via Instagram story and described her free skate as "jungle music." I don't know what all the pieces are but @alchemy void (thanks!) identified part of her music as being from the Xotica: Journey to the Heart soundtrack by Rene Dupere.
 

VALuvsMKwan

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Nope, Starr is an African-American skater (which is rather a rare phenomenon especially at the top levels of figure skating) and Dave & Jonathan unconsciously or consciously automatically came at her, her mother, and her programs with their snooty noses in the air. Some people knee-jerk think they are superior to you if your skin happens to have a lot of melanin in it. Meanwhile ironically, Dave has also been repeatedly discussing the benefits of melatonin, which is bottled melanin. And plenty of people love to have a nice tan, as long as they aren't considered to be part of the so-called 'black race,' which is in reality a nonexistent entity. There are different tribes or 'ethnic groups' (another label), but only the human race. However, we are stuck with the terminology created to divide the masses. :drama:

It's kind of funny that science knows how great and protective a substance melanin is. Darker-skinned people have the most of it, and they are also the most culturally discriminated against down through recent centuries. That's the world we live in. What else is new(s). :COP:

If they weren't actually going to talk about Starr's skating and give her some credit for her obvious talent, then they should have kept their mouths shut.
Regarding the bolded italicized portion of your post, I am not sure that it is quite accurate.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-melanin-and-melatonin/
 

aftershocks

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If you are not one of his "pets" assume you will be abused. It's kind of like some posters on here to think the way to make "their" favorites look good is to trash talk other skaters LOL! Sadly some of us never leave behind the behaviors of spoiled pre-teens.

Too bad posters on here keep encouraging him by listening to the Trashy Skating Lesson. If we ignore people like that they go away and find some other sport to abuse!
As @kwanfan1818 mentioned, there are guests who go on the show who are definitely worth listening to. If they all were specifically aware of some of the nasty, negative swipes Dave & cohort have taken at skaters and coaches over the years, maybe some of the guests might have second thoughts. I was surprised to see that Shpilband and Savchenko agreed to be interviewed recently. It's the second time that Aljona has appeared on TSL, and she was delightful as usual. Too good for the company she was with! It was also surprising in that the Knierims (who Aljona is coaching) have had negative swipes taken at them by Dave, and they are not on good terms with him or TSL. We do know that Sandra Bezic and Meagan Duhamel apparently are friendly with Dave and thus seem to put up with or forgive his nasty side!

Obviously, TSL has always been good with their interviews. They have a treasure trove archive, and that's been what's kept TSL afloat for the most part. In the latest broadcast, Dave made sure to make it known that he's been in contact with Jenny in recent weeks, in the aftermath of the skating community being in shock over Denis' tragic death. I have always been fair in my regard for what's good about TSL, and in my critiquing for what's bad about Dave and the podcast. I was completely turned off anew when I got to the end of the Asian Trophy/The ICE episode and saw the depths to which they went to trash Starr. It was simply uncalled for. The nature of their criticism is definitely 'racial bias' based. Starr can skate to all the African-American and/or African-themed music she chooses. Dave and Jonathan need to check themselves.
 

aftershocks

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Regarding the bolded italicized portion of your post, I am not sure that it is quite accurate.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-melanin-and-melatonin/
Yeah I've read about what makes the bottled melatonin different. It still has a connection to melanin. Obviously, there's a process involved in extracting the properties in melatonin that make it beneficial as a sleep-aid. But yeah the scientific community and anyone else can make every effort they can muster to split hairs, just as is always the case when the emotional and culturally-charged faux topic of 'race' arises.

People who take Dave seriously should also remember how many of his predictions were inaccurate, how he said at certain points that Ashley, Adam, Max, Mirai, etc. should all quit and then these skaters went on to reach heights of their respective careers (plus, he complained so much about how USFS was sending Bradie to junior worlds, and said that she should just use skating to put on her resume for college and maybe try out for Disney on Ice or something...now she's an Olympic medalist ;)).
That’s the thing. None of here taking him seriously at all. But some people outside this forum sadly do. They think because Aljona agrees to an interview, he’s some sort of expert. But he hits so far below the belt. It’s digusting.
Right. They've said nasty things about a lot of skaters, so I realize that is often their go-to when they don't like someone. They said horrible stuff about the Shibs, about Bradie, about Jason, about Rohene, about Gracie, about Weaver/Poje, about Ashley Wagner, about the Knierims, and the list goes on. It's very petty and off-putting. However, it doesn't mean people are 'taking Dave seriously' when they watch. Even @VIETgrlTerifa admitted breaking down to watch the Shpilband interview, and it is worth watching (because of Shpilband). So is the Aljona interview (because of Aljona).

Figure skating coverage is completely lacking, thus TSL tends to fill a vacuum. And they happen to be an avenue for skaters and coaches to speak to fans, and to promote themselves and the work they are doing. I suppose most of their guests aren't specifically aware of the full extent of Dave's & Jonathan's nastiness.
 
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aftershocks

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Frida80

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Nope, Starr is an African-American skater (which is rather a rare phenomenon especially at the top levels of figure skating) and Dave & Jonathan unconsciously or consciously automatically came at her, her mother, and her programs with their snooty noses in the air. Some people knee-jerk think they are superior to you if your skin happens to have a lot of melanin in it. Meanwhile ironically, Dave has also been repeatedly discussing the benefits of melatonin, which is bottled melanin. And plenty of people love to have a nice tan, as long as they aren't considered to be part of the so-called 'black race,' which is in reality a nonexistent entity. There are different tribes or 'ethnic groups' (another label), but only the human race. However, we are stuck with the terminology created to divide the masses. :drama:

It's kind of funny that science knows how great and protective a substance melanin is. Darker-skinned people have the most of it, and they are also the most culturally discriminated against down through recent centuries. That's the world we live in. What else is new(s). :COP:

If they weren't actually going to talk about Starr's skating and give her some credit for her obvious talent, then they should have kept their mouths shut.
Oh god... they’re playing with fire. Racism on social media cost people their jobs and reputation. I cannot believe they came for what’s basically a just of the Junior Circuit skater with very little exposure at senior level and her mother with a heart condition. I’m still not watching or dignifying his hate with any clicks.

More importantly, I don’t want her any other young skater seeing this. She’s got enough on her plate.

However, I will say I loved your assessment of both Starr and Eunsoo. It was objective and optimistic. Any chance you’d be willing to make a blog for the JGP?
 
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aftershocks

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^^ You're right, but it also needs to be called out, not simply ignored. Okay, ITA with @Sylvia that further TSL OT should be taken to that thread, albeit many posters have tuned out of giving any clicks or attention to TSL. It's just that as @kwanfan1818 said, there are important guests who still appear on the show. Dave should apologize to Starr and her mother. But what Dave will likely do is go back and edit out the OTT negative comments.

Conversely, Dave & Jonathan were very effusive and much more expansive and fair in their discussion of Eunsoo's burgeoning talent and some of her shortcomings.
 
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Frida80

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^^ You're right, but it also needs to be called out, not simply ignored. Okay, ITA with @Sylvia that further TSL OT should be taken to that thread, albeit many posters have tuned out of giving any clicks or attention to TSL. It's just that as @kwanfan1818 said, there are important guests who still appear on the show. Dave should apologize to Starr and her mother. But what they will likely do is go back and edit out their OTT negative comments.
He’ll never apologized unless he’s shamed into it. I’d call him out but I’m too worried about the stress on her mom’s heart if this goes viral.
 

flyushka

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Yeah I've read about what makes the bottled melatonin different. It's still derived from melanin. Obviously, there's a process involved in extracting the properties in melanin that make it so beneficial. But yeah the scientific community and anyone else can make every effort they can muster to split hairs, just as is always the case when the emotional and culturally-charged faux topic of 'race' arises.
No, melanin and melatonin are two separate chemicals with different origins. The body makes both naturally and both are important for health in different ways. Melanin comes from tyrosine and melatonin is derived from tryptophan, both amino acids (so they do have somewhat similar structures), but bottled melatonin doesn't come from melanin. Melanin is a skin pigment as you know, and melatonin helps control the sleep/wake cycle. The only way they're related AFAIK is that melatonin has some role in regulating the hormone that stimulates the production of melanin, but taking melatonin doesn't seem to affect skin color. I don't know about Dave hawking this trend of taking extra synthetic melatonin but I can't say there's any connection between that and any potential racial animus on his part.
 

overedge

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aftershocks

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No, melanin and melatonin are two separate chemicals with different origins. The body makes both naturally and both are important for health in different ways. Melanin comes from tyrosine and melatonin is derived from tryptophan, both amino acids (so they do have somewhat similar structures), but bottled melatonin doesn't come from melanin. Melanin is a skin pigment as you know, and melatonin helps control the sleep/wake cycle. The only way they're related AFAIK is that melatonin has some role in regulating the hormone that stimulates the production of melanin, but taking melatonin doesn't seem to affect skin color. I don't know about Dave hawking this trend of taking extra synthetic melatonin but I can't say there's any connection between that and any potential racial animus on his part.
You miss the point. I'm not claiming Dave's reference to taking melatonin has anything to do with racial bias. But that's the point. Ironically, he uses a beneficial substance that is related to melanin production in the pineal gland, yet he seems to unconsciously hate on a beautiful young skater of color because she skates to music by African-American singers, and African-related themes and rhythms. :duh:

As far as your science-related rundown, yep, I know. I've read up on it. The substances are clearly related, and it's a lot more involved scientifically. And melatonin apparently plays a role in some way as a sleep aid, from what I've read.
"Increase of melanin pigments is due to the action of pineal indole-melatonin. Melatonin suppresses the melanocyte-stimulating hormone and prevents dispersion of melanin granules. Therefore, the melanin pigments become concentrated in the pineal gland..."
Melanin Pigments in Human Pineal Gland - MedIND
medind.nic.in/jae/t01/i2/jaet01i2p122.pdf

Scientists have always been curious about differences in skin color and the protective properties of melanin (which tends to guard against cracked and wrinkled skin from sun damage; of course that doesn't mean people with more melanin don't need to protect their skin from sun damage :D). There's been a ton of ongoing research regarding skin color (particularly in Africa), despite the fact that differences in skin color are miniscule in connection to differences in human DNA. Melanin is produced in the pituitary gland. In pale-skinned humans, the pituitary gland is atrophied. Ancient humans who migrated out of Africa to Europe had to lose the melanin in their skin (which protected their skin from the sun in the southern climate) in order to survive the cold northern European climate, and in order to gain Vitamin D from the sun. Human physical characteristics evolved over time due to differences in their environment. Ancient humans did not live in houses, and thus were more exposed to the elements.

The bottom line is that it's difficult to even have a conversation about anything remotely related to the faux concept of different races, or coded comments triggered by ingrained bias. This is because our emotions and defenses immediately become involved when such topics arise. Such knee-jerk emotions are what's actually underlying Dave's and Jonathan's nasty and confused commentary about the music Starr has chosen to skate to this season. Being 'black' or 'melinated' in America means any room or field or sphere you enter becomes a space of coded signals and meanings underneath the surface. You are always going to be the elephant in the room, no matter how much relations between faux 'different races' have evolved since the 19th and 20th centuries, etc.

The fact that some feel the knee-jerk need to rush to deny any relationship between melatonin and melanin, when that's not even the main point of why I brought up the related substances in the first place, tells us all we need to know. That is if you can comprende the subleties and the complexities of this discussion.

Anyway, let's get back to U.S. ladies thread. Nothing is going to be resolved on the issue of people having different skin colors and skin tones and how that affects us all culturally and emotionally. Even the most pale-skinned people have different skin tones, btw. It's just not as readily visible. :lol: I doubt there would be as much discussed if an Asian skater chose to skate to Asian-themed music over a few seasons. :drama: But that's not even the main point either. The crucial point is that Dave and Jonathan need to stop their snarky bigotry against everyone they don't like in the skating community.
 
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Tinami Amori

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...yet he seems to unconsciously hate on a beautiful young skater of color because she skates to music by African-American singers, and African-related themes and rhythms. :duh:
Well....... then "Dave must hate" the Russian Cultural Ballet phenomena by attacking Alina's 'tutus' and French Cultural phenomena by attacking Zhenya's "mimes"...... If he does not like a skater or something about a skater, then he'll attack their "main issue/image". All skaters' CHOSEN TRADEMARKS such as Russian Tutus, French Mime, and African-American Music theme skater ... are ALL a fair game to him. He is an equal opportunity "abuser".. :D

(you don't think the Af-Am skaters should be handled differently than Russian Ballerinas, right?)
 

aftershocks

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Well....... then "Dave must hate" the Russian Cultural Ballet phenomena by attacking Alina's 'tutus' and French Cultural phenomena by attacking Zhenya's "mimes"...... If he does not like a skater or something about a skater, then he'll attack their "main issue/image". All skaters' CHOSEN TRADEMARKS such as Russian Tutus, French Mime, and African-American Music theme skater ... are ALL a fair game to him. He is an equal opportunity "abuser".. :D

(you don't think the Af-Am skaters should be handled differently than Russian Ballerinas, right?)
Yep and you apparently want to distract from the elephant in the room. Even scientists must carefully split hairs to let us know that the beneficial substance, melatonin (although it triggers the production of melanin), is not melanin, the pigment in the skin of darker-skinned humans that some pale-skinned humans knee-jerk hate against or fear or look down on or belittle or contrarily covet a little bit of themselves without any understanding of why. Go ahead and distract. You will never understand what your emotions and your ingrained thought processes and defenses guard against you comprehending. :watch:

Take a look at the biased stupidity of what Dave and Jonathan actually said about Starr and her mother. I posted a word-for-word excerpt in TSL thread, just for the record. Of course they managed to bring others into the dis-fest of Starr Andrews, including Johnny Weir, Surya Bonaly (but not Debi Thomas), Jason Brown, and even Yuna Shiraiwa was gratuitously dissed at the tail end of their nasty, bitchy snarking, which as usual they found amusing, since their snark was punctuated by laughter and smirks. And despite a few positive remarks about Bradie's improvements, Dave rushes to caution Jonathan not to over-praise Bradie: "Don't overblow it. Like Boyang Jin, I am still like..." (Dave gives side-eye)
 
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Tinami Amori

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Yep and you apparently want to distract from the elephant in the room. Even scientists must carefully split hairs to let us know that the beneficial substance, melatonin (although it triggers the production of melanin), is not melanin, the pigment in the skin of darker-skinned humans that some pale-skinned humans knee-jerk hate against or fear or look down on or belittle or contrarily covet a little bit of themselves without any understanding of why.
There is NOTHING about skin color or melatonin in TSL's video. @ 1:01:20 it starts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY9-LnBC38w

Take a look at the biased stupidity of what Dave and Jonathan actually said about Starr and her mother. I posted a word-for-word excerpt in TSL thread, just for the record. Of course they managed to bring others into the dis-fest of Starr Andrews, including Johnny Weir, Surya Bonaly (but not Debi Thomas), Jason Brown, and even Yuna Shiraiwa was gratuitously dissed at the tail end of their nasty, bitchy snarking, which as usual they found amusing, since their snark was punctuated by laughter and smirks. And despite a few positive remarks about Bradie's improvements, Dave rushes to caution Jonathan not to over-praise Bradie: "Don't overblow it. Like Boyang Jin, I am still like..." (Dave gives side-eye)
I heard the part 3 times now. They are saying that Starr's mother insists that her daughter only will skate to African American music. Then they discuss if it is wise for a skater to stay with "identity politics" in their skating. Then they discuss what other "Black artists' music" Starr can use effective IF that is the image she wants to keep (A Black Skater, vs. a Skater who happens to be Black), then they discuss her 3A and technical elements, and then they switch to Japanese girls.
 

Per

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The discussion if Starr is limiting her possibilities of expanding as a skater by only skate to music by African-American artists is legitimate. I respect her stand, but for me she is an athlete first of all. It makes her rule out tons, tons of music. Is that really a good thing for a skater? One should be able to discuss it without being called a rasist.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Because all black artists are the same and perform in the same genre? As if choreographers and skaters don't already limit themselves with the types of music they choose and the artists that they almost always tend to choose. Anyway, the rest of the conversation aftershocks transcribed shows their attitudes and it's beyond critiques of Starr limiting herself.
 

aftershocks

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Oh keep sticking to what makes you comfortable to ignore @Tinami Amori. If you don't get the melatonin/melanin reference, don't bother trying. Dave has mentioned taking melatonin a few times previously. I never said that he mentioned melatonin during his dis-fest of Starr, her mother, and her new programs, nor that he has any idea of it's connection to melanin, much less to faux issues of 'race' and biased commentary. That's your shtick.
 

Tinami Amori

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The discussion if Starr is limiting her possibilities of expanding as a skater by only skate to music by African-American artists is legitimate. I respect her stand, but for me she is an athlete first of all. It makes her rule out tons, tons of music. Is that really a good thing for a skater? One should be able to discuss it without being called a rasist.
That! Bonaly is one of my favorite skater, i did not think much of her "ethnicity", because her skating was exciting, to ALL sorts of music, including ethnic. Starr's team decided to position her as "Af-Am Skater", so any critique of her and her skating, BY DEFAULT due to her team's choice, will involve "Af-Am issues".

Zag's team chose to wear Tutus for 2 years, and Dave's refs to her "tutus" had to do with "Russian Ballerinas". If you create an "identity", the critique will include and touch on "that identity".
 

aftershocks

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The discussion if Starr is limiting her possibilities of expanding as a skater by only skate to music by African-American artists is legitimate. I respect her stand, but for me she is an athlete first of all. It makes her rule out tons, tons of music. Is that really a good thing for a skater? One should be able to discuss it without being called a rasist.
Knee-jerk fear of being called 'racist.' A faux term btw, but that's the terminology that exists. Dave said on TSL that another choreographer (unnamed) told him that Starr's mother wished for her "to skate to music by African-American singers for the attention it would garner them." And this anecdote and quote are hearsay. Plus, it doesn't make any difference what Starr's mother wants her to skate to, if this hearsay anecdote has any reality at all. It seems to me that Starr and her coaches and perhaps her mother all likely play a role in the music choices Starr makes. And they can make whatever choices they so choose. I would question why you feel any of Starr's music choices have placed limits on her! This hearsay anecdote by Dave Lease has not been verified. And the way Dave relates it, is biased in and of itself. I would not run with it, but you can do as you please.

The important thing to keep in mind is that skaters can and will select whatever music they wish to skate to. I don't see anything limiting in Starr's music choices. In her short career, she's skated to a variety of music, so Dave's anecdote to me seems made up and fabricated based on supposition and biased thinking (simply because Starr once skated to Willow Smith's Whip My Hair, and last season, she skated to a Beyonce song, and a Whitney Houston song very successfully. The season before that Starr skated to The Pink Panther, by Henry Mancini, and to music from Black Swan by Tchaikovsky, and Clint Mansell).

Starr can skate to music by Sade, Rihanna, Nina Simone, The Weeknd, Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross, James Brown, John Legend, Drake, Nikki Minaj, Cardi B, Snoop Dogg, Queen Latifah, fka Twigs, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington or whoever. Starr has loads of music and musicians and musical genres to choose between and to be inspired by. There are no limitations! And I don't have any say in the matter anyway. I only wish for Starr's continued success and that she's inspired by whatever music she chooses. And that goes for any skater. As we know, many skaters are inspired by music that stirs their spirits and gets their feet tapping. Much of popular music is derived from the rhythms and beats originating from the African continent, the birthplace of mankind.

There is so much that connects different music into one beautiful whole. So I hope that everyone participating in this thread would please stop parsing this subject and attempting to separate so-called 'African-American' culture from human culture. It's impossible to do that. But yeah, some people keep trying. And that's why the Dave/Jonathan nonsensical biased-hang-ups discussion occurred in the first place.

More power to Starr Andrews! :kickass:
 
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