U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

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Frida80

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Well, there's also that Ashley may or may not be retired, Mirai isn't doing the GP (and also may or may not be retired), and Bradie/Karen/Mariah all have two assignments (presumably they didn't want two of these three at the same GP). Those were the only people that beat her at nationals. As noted she beat out others that could've had the spot including Wang, Hicks, Glenn, and all the other Junior Ladies competing Senior at Nationals. With no one above Starr at Nationals who could have that second spot and few (if any) of the other options having competed for the summer when spots were chosen, it was probably easiest to pick by Nationals results.

Also, if they're trying to promote the future, Starr may very well be it. She needs work on her skating quite a bit to be competitive at the Senior ranks, but she does have the potential to be one of the faces of US Figure Skating. Girl is very marketable. She went viral in the past, she has (or almost has) a 3A like Mirai, she's got a fun personality, she chooses unique music and costumes, she performs on the ice, she's pretty, etc. They were already using all those as marketing for Nationals this year, but when she is legitimately in the conversation for the Olympic team I expect USFS to play those talking points up to the media even more.
I think you’re thinking to far ahead. Maybe there is a lot of anxiety about the future of ladies skating so we get treally invested in discussing skaters. But I am still in a wait and see mode with Starr. As far as the future and her marketability, I refuse to discuss it. Four years is a long time.

What I hope we can do is discuss skaters without putting them down. Pickings were slim for SA, so in my opinion she earned her spot. I agree that she needs more work on edge work, cross overs, and her program needs to be developed more. I don’t think she should dump it. It’s too close to the start of the season and it takes months to break in new programs. Instead she should work with her choreographer more to fill in the empty spots. But I think once she’s gotten used to the layout, she’ll start performing it more. My hope is that she competes three more times before SA, just to get more mileage out of her program.
 

Willin

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@Frida80 I wouldn't say I was putting her down. She earned it with her performances at Nationals. People were wondering why she got the spot as opposed to those she beat at Nationals: and that's how she got the spot in the first place. I think that she needs to work on skating skills more, but I also don't think that's putting her down. Almost every single 17-year-old skater no matter how talented needs to work on their skating skills and edgework but that's okay - they have a lot of time to do that throughout this season and the next few seasons.

But I do think her marketability really plays a role. While I agree with you that four years is a long time and who knows where she'll be, our opinion doesn't matter. USFS's opinion matters, and based on the local promotion they did for Nationals and the storylines they gave for her to the local newsmedia, it's pretty obvious what their opinion of her marketability and future is.
 

Frida80

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@Frida80 I wouldn't say I was putting her down. She earned it with her performances at Nationals. People were wondering why she got the spot as opposed to those she beat at Nationals: and that's how she got the spot in the first place. I think that she needs to work on skating skills more, but I also don't think that's putting her down. Almost every single 17-year-old skater no matter how talented needs to work on their skating skills and edgework but that's okay - they have a lot of time to do that throughout this season and the next few seasons.

But I do think her marketability really plays a role. While I agree with you that four years is a long time and who knows where she'll be, our opinion doesn't matter. USFS's opinion matters, and based on the local promotion they did for Nationals and the storylines they gave for her to the local newsmedia, it's pretty obvious what their opinion of her marketability and future is.
Don’t worry wasn’t saying you were putting her down. Just the to end of the conversation was going in that direction.

BUT marketability? Starr is still so young to me. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around that.
 

Cleo1782

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Don’t worry wasn’t saying you were putting her down. Just the to end of the conversation was going in that direction.

BUT marketability? Starr is still so young to me. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around that.
With that you tube video and singing her own free program last year? She's pretty marketable. Plus she is inspiring to a lot of people I would assume since she is African-American in a sport that is still dominated by Caucasian or Asian skaters. Imagine if she makes it to the Olympics? That whip my hair video will be played more times than the Nathan Chen/Andrea Joyce 'what Olympics are you going to' video.
 
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Frida80

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With that you tube video and singing her own free program last year? She's pretty marketable. Plus she is inspiring to a lot of people I would assume since she is African-American in a sport that is still dominated by Caucasian or Asian skaters. Imagine if she makes it to the Olympics? That whip my hair video will played more times than the Nathan Chen/Andrea Joyce 'what Olympics are you going to' video.
I went through the same thing with Nathan. I had been watching him since he was 11. He was so cute and talented. I knew he was going to make a splash when he hit Seniors. But when he did, all the attention made me quesy. I think he was, and is, still a baby in my head. And Starr is so small it’s hard to think about marketing her. Just give me some time to get used to the idea.
 

Cleo1782

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I went through the same thing with Nathan. I had been watching him since he was 11. He was so cute and talented. I knew he was going to make a splash when he hit Seniors. But when he did, all the attention made me quesy. I think he was, and is, still a baby in my head. And Starr is so small it’s hard to think about marketing her. Just give me some time to get used to the idea.
Lol! I felt old being that I was at that Nationals and saw that interview happening. He really was such a talent at a young age. I remember Karen Chen being hyped like that but I guess she didn't get a Andrea Joyce interview. One of the most ridiculous hyping moments of my life was when Mirai won Juniors at Nationals, but Caroline had won everything that year on the jgp and they both got to skate in the gala (which is the only time junior 1 and 2 ever did that) and they had to awkwardly introduce and watch one another as if they were lifelong besties. It was just odd..
 

Willin

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@Cleo1782 I remember watching that interview on TV and thinking he'd burn out before doing anything special like a lot of other 11-year-olds people hype. Boy am I glad I was wrong!
With Starr I thought something similar. Not to diss ISI at all (it has it's place), but most of the people I know who do/did ISI do it for fun and have no intention of trying to go to the Olympics, so when I saw her Whip My Hair program I assumed she wasn't aiming to go to the Olympics. Well, I'm happy she proved me wrong.
 

Frida80

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@Cleo1782 I remember watching that interview on TV and thinking he'd burn out before doing anything special like a lot of other 11-year-olds people hype. Boy am I glad I was wrong!
With Starr I thought something similar. Not to diss ISI at all (it has it's place), but most of the people I know who do/did ISI do it for fun and have no intention of trying to go to the Olympics, so when I saw her Whip My Hair program I assumed she wasn't aiming to go to the Olympics. Well, I'm happy she proved me wrong.
Just a small correction. That interview was when he was ten. I didn't see it at the time. I saw him in person the next year when he came to Greensboro in the exhibition.
 

AxelAnnie

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I am not sure if Starr's Asian Open FS has been posted but here it is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LKfZshnMR5E
Thanks for posting that I like Starr, but not impressed with that. Love the music, and I think the music has GREAT potential to be an epic skate. However, she did not match the music with her choreography, emotion or demeanor. It was one of those skates that (to me) could have been skated to any music............because she was not engaged in the music.
 

Cleo1782

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@Cleo1782 I remember watching that interview on TV and thinking he'd burn out before doing anything special like a lot of other 11-year-olds people hype. Boy am I glad I was wrong!
With Starr I thought something similar. Not to diss ISI at all (it has it's place), but most of the people I know who do/did ISI do it for fun and have no intention of trying to go to the Olympics, so when I saw her Whip My Hair program I assumed she wasn't aiming to go to the Olympics. Well, I'm happy she proved me wrong.
Idk....I mentioned up thread I did ISI for awhile. I did both USFSA and ISIA. Anyone serious stops after about level 4 or 5. I liked trophies and competing. I went on to pass my Golds in figures (3rd test at the end of an era), moves, and freeskating. And competed at the Senior level. I know more than a few skaters who were very successful who did ISI too.. Although I am talking about ISI 20 plus years ago, so things may have changed.
 

Dobre

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I like Starr's free. She isn't skating it with confidence & assuredness yet; but it has the potential to stand out from the crowd at Nationals and show off her unique style on the ice. Think in the long run, it can be be her stronger vehicle this season.
 

Willin

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@Cleo1782 Depends on where you are. Like you said, in Chicago ISI was a launching pad for people who went to go on to do USFSA. For midwest synchro teams it offers less competitive environments so lower to middle ranked USFSA teams can get a medal at least once a season. In places like Northern California (where I am now) ISI is something where a lot of skaters are either trapped (ie. guided into by a coach at an early age and not allowed to test/compete USFSA) or do it because they want to compete but on a more casual, less competitive basis. That's what I usually see up here, and shaped how I regard ISI.
In smaller markets and certain rinks it might also be the only option so skaters can't switch to USFSA if they wanted to. When I was skating at Wilmette it was strictly an ISI rink so I never questioned it - when the older girls on the Olympic track switched to USFSA they would simply skate at a different rink where the USFSA coaches were.
 

Cleo1782

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@Cleo1782 Depends on where you are. Like you said, in Chicago ISI was a launching pad for people who went to go on to do USFSA. For midwest synchro teams it offers less competitive environments so lower to middle ranked USFSA teams can get a medal at least once a season. In places like Northern California (where I am now) ISI is something where a lot of skaters are either trapped (ie. guided into by a coach at an early age and not allowed to test/compete USFSA) or do it because they want to compete but on a more casual, less competitive basis. That's what I usually see up here, and shaped how I regard ISI.
In smaller markets and certain rinks it might also be the only option so skaters can't switch to USFSA if they wanted to. When I was skating at Wilmette it was strictly an ISI rink so I never questioned it - when the older girls on the Olympic track switched to USFSA they would simply skate at a different rink where the USFSA coaches were.
I am not going to lie. I spent a couple of years in Synchro too. The Starlights from Wagon Wheel. They have merged into the Chicago Jazz I think. Idk, my cousin is a head coach and went Miami of Ohio because of her Synchro skills-she may have been able to do a 2t in freestyle. Maybe it's a better route. We won National medals, but at the time you had have three pairs of skates. Figures, freeskating, and precision (or Synchro) skates. Because there was a lot more marching and stuff back then and it ruined your blades. Synchro was fun, but I barely tell anyone in figure skating that I did it because it's still frowned upon a bit. My coach pulled me out of that real quick. I guess ISI can be a trap, but I remember most of my peers did it, but 85% were pretty recreational with an axel or few doubles at most. I don't understand why a quality coach would ever discourage a skater from competing in the USFS unless like you said they are just very casual skaters so it doesn't matter one way or the other, but even though I wasn't Michelle Kwan I still highly pride myself in having my golds from the USFS. All you need is a 2lz-which should be changed. It's a lot more useful than passing FS 10 in ISI if you want to coach (which I don't). Although, I have never met anyone who passed FS 10 in my life. Rohene Ward could have done it with the axel in the other direction. Other singles are fine, but the axel was just too hard for me to do.
 

Frida80

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Thanks for posting that I like Starr, but not impressed with that. Love the music, and I think the music has GREAT potential to be an epic skate. However, she did not match the music with her choreography, emotion or demeanor. It was one of those skates that (to me) could have been skated to any music............because she was not engaged in the music.
It's a brand new program. I felt the same about a lot of people's programs. Like Nathan's Cosaire or Ashley Moulin Rouge.

I think it's going to evolve over time. But I just realized that what's missing is African dance moves. It's big, expressive and emotional. But African Dance is difficult to translating into figure skating.
 

Tavi

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I am not going to lie. I spent a couple of years in Synchro too. The Starlights from Wagon Wheel. They have merged into the Chicago Jazz I think. Idk, my cousin is a head coach and went Miami of Ohio because of her Synchro skills-she may have been able to do a 2t in freestyle. Maybe it's a better route. We won National medals, but at the time you had have three pairs of skates. Figures, freeskating, and precision (or Synchro) skates. Because there was a lot more marching and stuff back then and it ruined your blades. Synchro was fun, but I barely tell anyone in figure skating that I did it because it's still frowned upon a bit. My coach pulled me out of that real quick. I guess ISI can be a trap, but I remember most of my peers did it, but 85% were pretty recreational with an axel or few doubles at most. I don't understand why a quality coach would ever discourage a skater from competing in the USFS unless like you said they are just very casual skaters so it doesn't matter one way or the other, but even though I wasn't Michelle Kwan I still highly pride myself in having my golds from the USFS. All you need is a 2lz-which should be changed. It's a lot more useful than passing FS 10 in ISI if you want to coach (which I don't). Although, I have never met anyone who passed FS 10 in my life. Rohene Ward could have done it with the axel in the other direction. Other singles are fine, but the axel was just too hard for me to do.
Totally OT, but according to his 7K bio, Rohene did pass ISI FS10, as did Heather Aseltine, if you know her. :)

https://www.skate7k.com/page/show/1531457-7k-staff
 

Cleo1782

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Totally OT, but according to his 7K bio, Rohene did pass ISI FS10, as did Heather Aseltine, if you know her. :)

https://www.skate7k.com/page/show/1531457-7k-staff
Totally do know Heather Aseltine. I am 100% sure we are fb friends. She was good friends with my sister. A super sweet girl that had lots of trouble with her 2a. Tall like me.. Just verified we are fb friends.. We knew each other as kids.
My cousin that does coaching in Synchro... https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=heather paige mciver She is low key amazing...
 
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WillyElliot

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Thanks for posting that I like Starr, but not impressed with that. Love the music, and I think the music has GREAT potential to be an epic skate. However, she did not match the music with her choreography, emotion or demeanor. It was one of those skates that (to me) could have been skated to any music............because she was not engaged in the music.
Except for the opening movements I saw no African dance in that program. Just alot of crossovers. Plus the unitard is not her friend. A unitard only works well with skaters who have well developed posture and clean lines, which Starr does not have. It accentuates her weakness in that area IMO.
 

Jayar

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Wow! Bradie’s sleek figure (past puberty monster, folks), the way she uses torso and arms are TO DIE FOR! Love the music. Love the dress. Best US Lady by a mile.
And I see that you neglected to mention her legs. She forgets that choreography uses the full body. The upper body is moving quite well while her legs are not doing anything or, when they are, are incomplete. She has a LONG way to go. I would also mention Starr's body line. She doesn't really hit positions-- if you look at photographs of her, she always seems to be in transition. I think both are focusing so hard on the jumps that they forget the quality of everything else.
 

Willin

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And I see that you neglected to mention her legs. She forgets that choreography uses the full body. The upper body is moving quite well while her legs are not doing anything or, when they are, are incomplete. She has a LONG way to go. I would also mention Starr's body line. She doesn't really hit positions-- if you look at photographs of her, she always seems to be in transition. I think both are focusing so hard on the jumps that they forget the Oquality of everything else.
That problem never stopped Zagitova from winning the OGM :slinkaway

(Not that I'm saying it shouldn't be improved, because it should be, just that recent judging trends seem to involve completely ignoring poor skating skills if the jumping's good enough. Crossing my fingers that the judging changes will change this some.)

I am not going to lie. I spent a couple of years in Synchro too. The Starlights from Wagon Wheel. They have merged into the Chicago Jazz I think. Idk, my cousin is a head coach and went Miami of Ohio because of her Synchro skills-she may have been able to do a 2t in freestyle. Maybe it's a better route. We won National medals, but at the time you had have three pairs of skates. Figures, freeskating, and precision (or Synchro) skates. Because there was a lot more marching and stuff back then and it ruined your blades. Synchro was fun, but I barely tell anyone in figure skating that I did it because it's still frowned upon a bit. My coach pulled me out of that real quick. I guess ISI can be a trap, but I remember most of my peers did it, but 85% were pretty recreational with an axel or few doubles at most. I don't understand why a quality coach would ever discourage a skater from competing in the USFS unless like you said they are just very casual skaters so it doesn't matter one way or the other, but even though I wasn't Michelle Kwan I still highly pride myself in having my golds from the USFS. All you need is a 2lz-which should be changed. It's a lot more useful than passing FS 10 in ISI if you want to coach (which I don't). Although, I have never met anyone who passed FS 10 in my life. Rohene Ward could have done it with the axel in the other direction. Other singles are fine, but the axel was just too hard for me to do.
I don't think Starlights and Jazz have merged, but maybe the recent rule changes forced it to happen this year? Depending on when you skated and on what teams we may know some of the same people!
 

AxelAnnie

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Wow! Bradie’s sleek figure (past puberty monster, folks), the way she uses torso and arms are TO DIE FOR! Love the music. Love the dress. Best US Lady by a mile.
Totally agree.

Does she still need polish...yep. shell be I predict the top of the heap for US ladies.
 

skateboy

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Wow! Bradie’s sleek figure (past puberty monster, folks), the way she uses torso and arms are TO DIE FOR! Love the music. Love the dress. Best US Lady by a mile.
I agree. And I'll bet we see an even more polished Bradie this season, now that she has some real experience behind her.
 

mag

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I agree. And I'll bet we see an even more polished Bradie this season, now that she has some real experience behind her.
And more funding. Polish cost money. Regular, preferably daily, lesson time devoted exclusively to polishing programs and making sure every movement is perfect. 30 minutes a day = 2.5 hours per week @ $80/hour = $200/week
 

MrMystery

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And more funding. Polish cost money. Regular, preferably daily, lesson time devoted exclusively to polishing programs and making sure every movement is perfect. 30 minutes a day = 2.5 hours per week @ $80/hour = $200/week
And that's on the very, very low end of the spectrum in terms of lesson time, and hourly rate.
 

MrMystery

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While it's only a small snippet of Bradie's program, she looks quite strong. Yes, plenty of room to go, but looks like she's prepared and ready for the season. Nice to see her up her tech with the 3Lz/3Lp. Hopefully there will be a new costume for the GP.
 

berthesghost

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Does anyone know what bradie’s total lp jump layout is? AFAIK unlike 6.0 NJS doesnt reward a 3z/3r over a 3z/3t unless you’ve gone for a total pts uptick like by repeating the 3r vs repeating the 3t.

I also seem to recall that the 3_/3r went the way of the dodo once they became > nazis and no one wanted to risk it as its hard to tack the 3r on with out >.
 

Cleo1782

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Does anyone know what bradie’s total lp jump layout is? AFAIK unlike 6.0 NJS doesnt reward a 3z/3r over a 3z/3t unless you’ve gone for a total pts uptick like by repeating the 3r vs repeating the 3t.

I also seem to recall that the 3_/3r went the way of the dodo once they became > nazis and no one wanted to risk it as its hard to tack the 3r on with out >.
Caroline Zhang did it still (3r/3r) and Zag and Trusova to name a few. I believe a 3ltz/3lo has a higher base value than 3lz/3t. It's hard to get them called clean but a lot of Eteri's students did them last year.
 

Frida80

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Does anyone know what bradie’s total lp jump layout is? AFAIK unlike 6.0 NJS doesnt reward a 3z/3r over a 3z/3t unless you’ve gone for a total pts uptick like by repeating the 3r vs repeating the 3t.

I also seem to recall that the 3_/3r went the way of the dodo once they became > nazis and no one wanted to risk it as its hard to tack the 3r on with out >.
They only showed a portion of it. I agree that with only 5 triples, a +3Lo combo isn’t worth it. However, if it is used to replace one of the 3T combos, it can be used to repeat the flip and Lutz for a larger base value.

The real value is in the SP, 4.9 vs 4.2. I think it’s also a status thing. It looks impressive so it catches more attention and makes the skater look more impressive in turn. I think it’s a good trade off so long as it’s fully rotated.

Edit: Holy Moley, Bradie scored 222 this weekend. I now I have to focus myself into not getting hyped.
 
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RoseRed

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They only showed a portion of it. I agree that with only 5 triples, a +3Lo combo isn’t worth it. However, if it is used to replace one of the 3T combos, it can be used to repeat the flip and Lutz for a larger base value.

The real value is in the SP, 4.9 vs 4.2. I think it’s also a status thing. It looks impressive so it catches more attention and makes the skater look more impressive in turn. I think it’s a good trade off so long as it’s fully rotated.

Edit: Holy Moley, Bradie scored 222 this weekend. I now I have to focus myself into not getting hyped.
I can help ;) Keep in mind, that 1) it's a small club comp, which often have higher scores than internationally, and 2) with the changes in the scoring system, a 222 doesn't mean the exact same thing as it did before.

But still, very impressive summer skate for Bradie.
 
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