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Weve3

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Imho, at the end of the day (or comp) a skater's success ultimately comes down to the skater - and not the coach or choreographer. A good coach is beneficial, a great choreographer is essential, but they cannot literally wear the boots, take to the ice and deliver the program required to win, or magically erase their student’s nerves.
 

kwanatic

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My hope for this off season is that Karen finds some boots that work, at which point we can ditch the "boot problems" excuse which I am SO over at this point it isn't even funny anymore...

I'd like to see her move from Tammy as well. She's been rather stagnant the last few years. More than anything she needs a technical coach to fix her slow rotations and if Ouriashev can do that for her, I say go for it. I don't really see them together as a student-teacher match, but maybe a complete shake up is what it will take for her to get it together.
 

Weve3

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I'm pretty sure Ouriashev would love to get back into the game again with another high profile lady to coach, but it could be that Karen is shopping around for a tech coach only with the intention of staying on with Tammy. However, if she does decide to make a clean break and go with Alex, I would fully support and applaud that. He wouldn't have been my first choice for her, but I think he could certainly be helpful and I do think Karen is overdue for a change. If she is testing the waters, I would say, “Karen, jump in and go for it!”
 

Coco

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Alex is based in Chicago, right? Isn't Philip Mills based there as well?

Hmm....would love to see what Mills would do with Karen's abilities.
 

just wondering

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Alex is based in Chicago, right? Isn't Philip Mills based there as well?

Hmm....would love to see what Mills would do with Karen's abilities.

Yes. Alex is in Chicago. But I totally had Philip Mills in So.Cal., but you certainly could be right about Chicago. (I really don't know.)

Karen's brother is in Canton with Marina, right? Maybe she's considering a Marina / Alex thing.
 

VGThuy

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Maybe Karen read Gracie Gold's original plan and decided it sounded like a great idea. I know Karen has been in Canton a few times since the Olympics.
 

Weve3

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Alex is based in Chicago, right? Isn't Philip Mills based there as well?

Hmm....would love to see what Mills would do with Karen's abilities.
Me too! I hadn't thought of Mills for Karen, but that would be terrific if somehow the two of them could get together.(y)
 

aftershocks

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After finally catching up with most of the performances at Worlds, I have to say that Mirai and Bradie wuzrobbed big time in the scoring. Their scores were purposely held down IMHO. It likely has something to do with Bradie being new on the senior scene and not having a boffo showing at the Olympics (aside from the team comp). Similarly for Mirai, it seems like there's a bit of backlash on her for not succeeding with the 3-axel after the team comp (and perhaps also for some of her post-Olympics comp comments). Mirai should not be saddled with having to land the 3-axel or else she's not good enough to get top scores. :rolleyes:

I agree with Jackie Wong that Bradie's Worlds performances should have had her in the running for a bronze medal, or at the least a top five placement! Look how poorly so many of the top skaters performed! Miyahara ran into terrible trouble, and yet she still got breaks on tech calls for her pre-rotations. Caro was generously gifted first place in the sp, but she could not seal the deal in the fp. Bradie's excellent tech and decent overall performance values were definitely snubbed to leave room for topflight skaters who were expected to perform better. But didn't! Bradie scored 73 for tech initially, and was then taken down to 65! Why by such a huge margin? Mirai definitely was being looked down on and kept down unfairly. Loena Hendrixx and Tursynbaeva are not better skaters than Mirai. And many others who placed ahead of Mirai in the fp made too many mistakes and were given breaks, while Mirai was picked apart with a fine tooth comb.

It follows I think partly from all the sturm und drang toward U.S. ladies on fan forums. Constant criticizing. Of course, they do need to step up consistently, but a lot of the guff U.S. ladies get is OTT griping and politics. The very idea that the U.S. doesn't have enough talented ladies to fill out a 3-person squad is absurd. OTOH, Canada def doesn't have the depth of high level ladies talent to be fielding a 3-person squad. Canada may as well give their third spot to Japan. Something seriously needs to be rethought regarding the antiquated country-based competitive structure that is strangling athlete opportunities and growth.

IMO, TPTB among ISU judges simply preferred to take U.S. ladies down a notch at Worlds. Unfortunately, Karen's subpar performances this past season (after being 4th at 2017 Worlds) did not help U.S. ladies' political rep. This coupled with Ashley's seeming lack of motivation and slow start which she was unable to overcome in the eyes of US Fed after the advent of Bradie's SA break-out performances. What USFS failed to factor in their Olympic team selection decisionmaking is the fact that Karen (although young and talented) had not shown that she was ready to come out of her funk at the Olympics. I still say that Ashley (as a veteran with significant accomplishments) should have gone to the Olympics with Mirai and Bradie, while USFS should have enlisted help for Karen to ensure she would be prepared for Worlds in Milan (minus the boots fiasco).
 
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mag

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Hmm....would love to see what Mills would do with Karen's abilities.

Mills seems to me like quite the control freak (in a good way!) so if Karen worked with him it would be interesting to see how she dealt with that. I don’t know Karen, but I have heard the odd rumblings that listening and doing as asked is not her strong suit.


I agree with Jackie Wong that Bradie's Worlds performances should have had her in the running for a bronze medal

Bradie is a lovely skater, but she really needs to do a lot of work on the PCS side. There were some nice moments in her programs, but she just isn’t top three in the world, yet.
 

Willin

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Maybe Karen read Gracie Gold's original plan and decided it sounded like a great idea. I know Karen has been in Canton a few times since the Olympics.
Karen's been prepping for ACT/SAT, too. Maybe she'll attend U of M like Meryl. ;-)
TBH I don't know if this would work. Chicago and Ann Arbor are 4-5 hours apart in good traffic. In winter with snow on the roads it could easily be 8-10 hours. Alex is based out of the far north suburbs of Chicagoland - so that would easily tack an extra hour on to any travel (even flying, because they'd need to get to an airport). I'd imagine that would make the training difficult.
If she wants to move to Chicago there's plenty of closer schools she could attend. Northwestern would be very close. Loyola-Chicago isn't that far either. University of Chicago might be a farther commute, but with Chicago's public transit system it's doable. Even University of Wisconsin is only an hour away. There's also plenty of lower-ranked colleges and universities she can attend there. I see no reason for her to go to Michigan regularly for training or school.
 

just wondering

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TBH I don't know if this would work. Chicago and Ann Arbor are 4-5 hours apart in good traffic. In winter with snow on the roads it could easily be 8-10 hours. Alex is based out of the far north suburbs of Chicagoland - so that would easily tack an extra hour on to any travel (even flying, because they'd need to get to an airport). I'd imagine that would make the training difficult.
If she wants to move to Chicago there's plenty of closer schools she could attend. Northwestern would be very close. Loyola-Chicago isn't that far either. University of Chicago might be a farther commute, but with Chicago's public transit system it's doable. Even University of Wisconsin is only an hour away. There's also plenty of lower-ranked colleges and universities she can attend there. I see no reason for her to go to Michigan regularly for training or school.
TBH, I don't know if it would work either. Didn't really give it deep thought. (good effort on your part, though.)
Simply a for fun, U of M fan, off-season comment.
 
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alchemy void

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Sorry @aftershocks, my friend, but I totally disagree with you on like every point you made. :lol:

I agree with Jackie Wong that Bradie's Worlds performances should have had her in the running for a bronze medal, or at the least a top five placement!

She finished 4th in the LP, 6th overall. That's a helluva Worlds debut! :respec: However, if you want to talk about top 4 or 5, and want to beat the Olympic champion and a 30 year old legend, you need to have much better programs and packaging. She skated the event overall than Zags and Kostner, but especially with that LP, it's just a non-starter. And her LP wasn't perfect technically, either. (see below).

Caro was generously gifted first place in the sp

:huh:

But didn't! Bradie scored 73 for tech initially, and was then taken down to 65! Why by such a huge margin?

2a3t< and 3f< were the main culprits. The 2a3t was obvious to me in real time, the flip wasn't. Tough tech panel for almost everyone.

Loena Hendrixx and Tursynbaeva are not better skaters than Mirai.

I strongly disagree with you there. I think Hendrickx is just as good as a skater as Nagasu, has better programs with more transitions and significantly more performance quality. Look at the PCS for the LP. Bradie's 8s aren't exactly harsh, and probably a function of her landing jumps. I would argue there's one skater who's PCS is too low here, but she's not American.

BTW I agree that Tursy's PCS is ridiculous, though. Maybe a 5 for transitions and composition and low 7s everywhere else. So empty.

Bradie TENNELL USA 8.04 8.00 8.32 8.14 8.32
Loena HENDRICKX BEL 7.75 7.54 8.11 7.93 8.04
Elizabet TURSYNBAEVA KAZ 7.96 7.71 7.93 8.00 7.96
Mirai NAGASU USA 8.39 7.68 8.36 8.11 8.07



And many others who placed ahead of Mirai in the fp made too many mistakes and were given breaks, while Mirai was picked apart with a fine tooth comb.

Amano did tear her jumps apart in the LP. However, I thought her SP placement was rather generous, with 3f3t<< and one of the more memorable telegraphed 2axels since Maria Stavitskaya. :p

I guess I thought Bradie's 6th place was fantastic and well-earned, but definitely not medal-worthy. The tech panel was very harsh on Nagasu in the LP, but even if you ignore 3 of the carrots, she only gains enough points to move one placement up, over Hendrickx, and I don't feel like she skated well enough in the SP and LP to earn any placement higher than 10th.
 

aftershocks

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^^ Cool @alchemy void. Your take, which I respect. And the point of me sharing my views is to have a conversation. We definitely are not all going to agree or see things the same way. As you say a tough tech panel, especially for those whose scores they wished to keep down to leave room for the rep status skaters. :)

What happened to Caro in the fp? Ran out of steam? I was happy for Caro landing in first in the sp, and I thought how cool that she might be able to pull off perhaps a career-ending win in Milan. Obviously, the table ended up being set for her in the fp skating last, but she tanked. That's tough, but all athletes are human. And of course, we all tank sometimes, not just athletes. :p Miyahara was definitely given breaks (as she generally has been) on her pre-rotations and her poor ability to lift in the air. Otherwise, of course Miyahara is a gem aesthetically. It was uncharacteristic of Miyahara to tumble. For many of these skaters, I suppose we can chalk it up to mental and physical fatigue after a long season in a roller coaster Olympic year.

I realize that Mirai doesn't give herself a chance sometimes because of a tendency toward tentativeness and likely a feeling that she always has something to prove, which carries additional pressure. I think that's because she's quite often been given a hard time by USFS and ISU judges when she deserves better. (BTW, Mirai deserved a fairer chance at the mirror ball trophy too, but it's no secret that contest is rigged to the nth degree). It's def the case that Mirai deserved better scores in her fp at Worlds.

A lot of figure skating in terms of fan perception has to do with our individual emotional investments. I stand by my takes. Right that Bradie has a lot to improve in terms of packaging, but the panel was definitely tougher on Bradie than they would have been had she been considered a front-runner with political rep (and if she'd shown slam-bang consistency at the Olympics). Faltering in a prior important comp makes you vulnerable in the scoring when you are new on the scene. Plus there is so much depth and not a lot of room at the top, eh.

I agree re Tursynbaeva's overly high PCS scores. You like pretty Loena Hendrickx, and she is a talented up-and-comer. ;) IMO Loena needs more seasoning in different aspects, and more experience. She does have some lovely aesthetic qualities. In terms of talent and ability, Mirai is head-and-shoulders above so many of the skaters in front of her. Overall, it's just the tough time Mirai has been given, and the faulty judgment that she don't deserve the points unless she succeeds on the 3-axel. Mirai is one of those persons who seemingly gets overly-punished. Sotskova is determined and often consistent, but such a bore overall. I understand that Sotskova tries, and she gets a lot of generosity from the judges too. Daleman is sure to fight back next season from some rough outings at Olympics and Worlds.

Boy was I happy for Wakaba Higuchi! And great gutsiness from Kaetlyn Osmond at the tail end of the season. Well-deserved by both ladies. As I've said about Zagitova, reaching the ultimate goal in skating before ever attending a senior World championships is like putting the cart before the horse, but that's often the sport. Too politics-based. As Dick Button always quipped: "Everyone has to go through a bad performance." There's no way to know or control when it's gonna happen either. Stuff happens. Still, there's no excuse for the generally problematic judging, antiquated competitive structure, and faulty decision-making re the random rules changes.
So far, I continue to stay tuned. :watch:
 
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mag

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Cool @alchemy void. Your take, which I respect. And the point of me sharing my views is to have a conversation. We definitely are not all going to agree or see things the same way. As you say a tough tech panel, especially for those whose scores they wished to keep down to leave room for the rep status skaters. :)

Would mind pointing out where @alchemy void said the tech panel was tough on skaters “whose scores they wished to keep down...” because I don’t see that anywhere in their post.

Mirai has a habit of underrotating jumps. She posts underrotated jumps on Instagram. I don’t understand why there is such shock that a competent tech panel would check her jumps. She advertises that she underrotates! What do you expect them to do, ignore it?
 

aftershocks

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Would mind pointing out where @alchemy void said the tech panel was tough on skaters “whose scores they wished to keep down...” because I don’t see that anywhere in their post.

Mirai has a habit of underrotating jumps. She posts underrotated jumps on Instagram. I don’t understand why there is such shock that a competent tech panel would check her jumps. She advertises that she underrotates! What do you expect them to do, ignore it?

@mag, If you looked more carefully you'd see where I qualified my comment. On purpose, the last part of the last sentence in the first paragraph of my response to @alchemy void references my personal opinion on the matter. Why are your feathers in a huff anyway? :lol: I'm sharing what I think, as I said, to which anyone is entitled to agree or disagree. I don't expect outlier converts to my way of thinking on this or any topic.

We all realize that skaters who have been known to underrotate, are quite often overly scrutinized. And this obviously happens even when the skater in question did not actually underrotate, or it's such a close call that the decision should go in favor of the skater. Unfortunately, Mirai has been the poster child for being marked down even when it's very questionable whether she actually underrotated, and even when it's clear she did not. Which does not mean that Mirai doesn't underrotate some of her jumps. It's just that there are calls that go against her when she hasn't underrotated. And when we are dealing with figure skating politics and rep status as it relates to judging, it becomes oh so convenient for the tech panel to overly mark down on tech calls, when a skater otherwise skates a clean performance but is not held in high regard politically. Miyahara's pre-rotations and under-rotations have often been ignored. But that's the sport.

Not all tech panels are necessarily competent in their decisions, especially not when they have the fall-back excuse of poor camera angles, which has been a go-to refrain.
 

DreamSkates

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Cohen was a phenomenon the likes of which skating has rarely seen, she would have excelled in any generation because of what she did from the ankle up. The positions and the line were pristine, unlike any other lady I've ever seen. I don't think comparing her to Wagner is anywhere near accurate, especially in light of the fact that there are SO many U.S. ladies who have skated just like Wagner, that is: with great musical interpretation, smoothness, and style. Off the top of my head I can think of several ladies: Kerrigan, Kwiatkowski, Trenary, Sumners whose skating was much more in-line with Wagner's skating than Cohen.
Cohen is one skater I do miss! Lovely movement and graceful lines. Real artistry - I could feel the music she was expressing.
 

Tinami Amori

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Cohen is one skater I do miss! Lovely movement and graceful lines. Real artistry - I could feel the music she was expressing.
I don't think Cohen is credited enough for a major affect on Ladies Figure Skating: introduction of extreme limberness, the stretch elements, the flexibility prior know in rhythmic gymnastics.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/09/57/10/0957107b5e42dcdc2c8364be0b1451d2.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/15/70/bf1570bd9593260e6499086980733b36.jpg
http://www.geocities.ws/icewriter/capt.1014432982.olympics_figure_skating_slic104.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3c/b1/31/3cb1319eb926bf37ce322e7989cf8d8d.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f2/fd/d2/f2fdd2ef6173c6cef7de10a591ef727b.jpg

later other girls could do most of these elements too..... But Cohen made it a "must"..
 

aftershocks

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In their latest episode (posted June 1) TSL (Dave) opines that Alysa Liu is the only hope for U.S. ladies figure skating (unless Gracie comes back). :huh::confused::drama:

Let the over-expectations pile-on begin... :duh:

Interesting background:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12...hmond-girl-be-figure-skatings-next-big-thing/
"Liu is used to the unconventional route. She and her four siblings — a 9-year-old sister and 8-year-old triplets — were conceived through anonymous egg donors and surrogate moms..."
 
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Dr.Siouxs

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I don't think Cohen is credited enough for a major affect on Ladies Figure Skating: introduction of extreme limberness, the stretch elements, the flexibility prior know in rhythmic gymnastics.

later other girls could do most of these elements too..... But Cohen made it a "must"..


I question whether this made the sport better, though. I love a show stopping spiral :sasha1: but what does flexibility really have to do with "skating"? I would prefer to see skaters with beautiful edgework and flow over someone who can pull their leg up above their head. The Janet Lynn/Yuka Sato school of skating, I suppose
 

Willin

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@Dr.Siouxs While it doesn't seem that flexibility is necessary for edgework and flow, it can be very necessary for certain moves. In particular, some turns like Choctaws are incredibly hard without good hip turnout. Skaters with limited flexibility may also struggle with spin positions and elements of the step sequence (the body movement in particular). In ice dance, synchro, and pairs, flexibility is needed for lifts.

I don't think circus-level flexibility is absolutely necessary, and in fact I think it can be detrimental due to damage on the back and joints, but I don't think we should discount it as not having anything to do with skating.
 

Weve3

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I question whether this made the sport better, though. I love a show stopping spiral :sasha1: but what does flexibility really have to do with "skating"? I would prefer to see skaters with beautiful edgework and flow over someone who can pull their leg up above their head. The Janet Lynn/Yuka Sato school of skating, I suppose
No, I don’t think it has made the sport better - or worse, just more technically diverse.

Gymnastic-like flexibility (not to be confused with skater-like flexibility) really has nothing to do with skating when you get right down to it. Skating has morphed into many things it was never intended to be, i.e., ballet. And I love ballet, but…
 
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feraina

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According to FB, Alysa Liu landed two clean 3A's at a competition this weekend: one yesterday and one today! She became only the fourth US lady to land one in competition. Let's hope she can keep it up in other competitions.
That’s amazing. Is she eligible for jpg this season?
 

skatfan

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In their latest episode (posted June 1) TSL (Dave) opines that Alysa Liu is the only hope for U.S. ladies figure skating (unless Gracie comes back). :huh::confused::drama:

Let the over-expectations pile-on begin... :duh:

Interesting background:
https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12...hmond-girl-be-figure-skatings-next-big-thing/
"Liu is used to the unconventional route. She and her four siblings — a 9-year-old sister and 8-year-old triplets — were conceived through anonymous egg donors and surrogate moms..."

Given that her dad runs a law firm, and I’m not sure what his partner does, the prospects for Alysa moving out of town to get a top coach seem a little low. The Bay Area doesn’t really have them. But she can’t compete in jr intls until the 2019-2020 season.

Wow the the 3-axels!

I hope she’s limiting how many times she’s doing the hard jumps. It would be a shame for her to get injured badly.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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In their latest episode (posted June 1) TSL (Dave) opines that Alysa Liu is the only hope for U.S. ladies figure skating (unless Gracie comes back). :huh::confused::drama:

Let the over-expectations pile-on begin... :duh:

I remember how bezerk David went over Tessa Hong a few years back, and her career never really took off, either.

I'm beginning to wonder if he has Rod Black's 'next one' curse.
 
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