U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[concorde]

Well if they couldn't land those jumps, then they aren't really the athletes, right? That's supposed to be their edge.

Look at all of the melt downs this year and then think about your comment. Are you saying that Zag was not really an athlete during her World's FS or Russian Nationals FS? What about Gabby Daleman all of last year? Katelyn Orsmond is an even better example up until 2 seasons ago (she was either on or off). Moving to the US, what about Ting during her short last year at Nationals? or during her JGP assignments - she only tended to only go clean on her shorts and botched her longs.

Gabby, Katelyn, and Ting are all beautiful big jumpers. When they are on, they was great to watch. But when they are off, well that is another story. Whenever you have big jumpers like those ladies, the margin of error is extremely slight (much smaller than if you have low height, fast rotation jumps).

Under the US system, Ting has been a "developing" skater until this year when she moved to Senior. Developing skaters are more prone to falls since they are still developing. To become a top international skater, a skater needs to try those big jumps at competitions during the developing years. Doing jumps in practice is very different from doing them in competitions.

People on the board complain that the US is not producing more top international skaters. My point is that the current system promotes clean over risk. I think this system is flawed. Rather, the USFS needs to promote more risk in the developing years so that the skater can get the kinks out before they move to Senior. For the most part, a skater's technical content (all their triples plus at least one 3-3 combo) should be fully developed by the time they reach Senior if they are to have a shot at becoming a successful international competitor.

 

[Sylvia]

Have you even attended any Regionals competitions? There "clean" tends to win over difficulty.

If a skater has a program with lower difficulty (more the artiste), then it is easier to go clean (note I am not saying easy). Add some bigger jumps and you have greater potential for things to go wrong. Some may say that skaters can get the "+1 bonus" for the bigger jumps and that should be enough to compensate for the fall. The reality is that fall gets a -5 GOE, plus a fall deduction, and a hit to the PCS.

Developing skaters are more prone to falls since they are still developing. To become a top international skater, a skater needs to try those big jumps at competitions during the developing years. Doing jumps in practice is very different from doing them in competitions.

People on the board complain that the US is not producing more top international skaters. My point is that the current system promotes clean over risk. I think this system is flawed. Rather, the USFS needs to promote more risk in the developing years so that the skater can get the kinks out before they move to Senior. For the most part, a skater's technical content (all their triples plus at least one 3-3 combo) should be fully developed by the time they reach Senior if they are to have a shot at becoming a successful international competitor.

What would you like to see improved in USFS' current jump bonus system for the Junior and lower levels? https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ying-pipeline-more.103798/page-4#post-5364059

 

[VGThuy]

I also wonder if the past junior success stories started getting discouraged and developed a sort of mental block that affected their competitive trajectories because of all the UR and other calls and found themselves in a position because their technical issues weren't addressed much earlier on and worked really hard on it. I think Mirai finally figured it out but it took her almost all 8 seasons (I'd say 6 because she was able to compete at 2016 Worlds thanks to Polina dropping out and had very respectable skates there with tons of audience support) and finally found a coach who meshed well with her. I also think Ashley Wagner, as disappointed as she was with her calls throughout her career forged on and never lost that competitive fire. I think that competitive nature of hers did her very well in her career as she was not one to dwell on disappointment as she was competing. She might be dealing with disappointment at missing the Olympic team now as she most likely decided that would have been her last competition, but that's just human. Bradie Tennell this season seems to have a healthy attitude about it too and isn't discouraged with getting some calls because she thinks she won't always get those calls if she just keeps working because unlike say Caroline Zhang, she has the technique that can be worked on. Plus, she sees EVERYONE is getting calls these days because of the stricter review process.

 

[concorde]

What would you like to see improved in USFS' current jump bonus system for the Junior and lower levels? https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ying-pipeline-more.103798/page-4#post-5364059

I will create separate posts for each of these from Junior down to Juv.

For Juniors, the 18-19 rulebook reads:
1. Junior Singles Short Program and Free Skate:
a. +1.0 bonus for each triple Axel achieved (under-rotated or full value), regardless of whether it is achieved as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence;
b. +2.0 bonus for each quadruple jump achieved (under-rotated or full value), regardless of whether it is achieved as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence;
c. Triple Axel and quadruple jumps are eligible for bonus points only if compliant with well-balanced program and repeat rules

I would keep the way it is. That includes using the current scoring system of -5/+5 GOE.

 

[concorde]

Remember my revisions are to create elite competitive international skaters so some may find my suggestions rather harsh.

I believe that by the time this skater reaches Novice, they should have at least 2 (preferable 3) different fully rotated triples.

The 18-19 rule book reads.
2. Novice Singles Short Program and Free Skate:
a. +3.0 bonus for each two-jump combination where both jumps are triple jumps, or a three-jump combination where two triple jumps are executed in succession. Both triple jumps must be under-rotated or full value to receive the bonus.
b. +3.0 bonus for each triple Axel achieved (under-rotated or full value), regardless of whether it is achieved as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence;
c. +2.0 bonus for any triple jump (under-rotated or full value) that immediately follows a double jump (including double Axel) in a jump combination.
d. +1.0 bonus for each triple jump achieved (under-rotated or full value) as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence, that doesn’t meet the criteria in paragraphs a, b or c above.
e. Triple jumps are eligible for bonus points only if compliant with well-balanced program and repeat rules.

My changes
a is fine.
b distinguish between men and ladies. For men, keep. For the ladies, delete. If a lady is attempting a 3A, she should be skating as a Junior not sandbagging as a Novice.
c keep
d distinguish between men and ladies. For the men, bonus points should only be awarded on the 4th (and more) fully rotated (not under-rotated) triples are performed. For the ladies, bonus points should only be awarded on the 3rd (and more) rotated (not under-rotated) triples are performed.
e. fine
f. Do not use the current IJS -5/+5 scoring system. These are developing skaters so they will rarely (if ever get +4 or +5) so that system penalizes heavily for falls and step outs. Use the old -3/+3 GOE system.

 

[concorde]

By the time the elite track skater reaches intermediate, they will have a fully rotated double axel and one fully rotated triple. They may have a second triple but that is probably flip-flops back and forth between fully and under-rotated.

For intermediates the 18-19 rules book provides:
Intermediate Singles Short Program and Free Skate:
a. +1.0 bonus for one double Axel achieved (under-rotated or full value), regardless of whether it is achieved as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence;
b. +3.0 bonus for each two-jump combination where both jumps are triple jumps or a three-jump combination where two triple jumps are executed in succession. Both triple jumps must be under-rotated or full value to receive the bonus.
c. +2.0 bonus for any triple jump (under-rotated or full value) that immediately follows a double jump (including double Axel) in a jump combination.
d. +1.0 bonus for each triple jump achieved (under-rotated or full value) as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence, that doesn’t meet the criteria in paragraphs b or c above.
e. Double Axel and triple jumps are eligible for bonus points only if compliant with well-balanced program and repeat rules.

My changes:
a. revised to only give the bonus to fully rotated double axels
b. delete. No skater should be doing 3-3 combos as an Intermediate. If they are, then they are sandbagging.
c. probably drop since that also encourages sandbagging.
d. keep
e. keep
f. Do not use the current IJS -5/+5 scoring system. These are developing skaters so they will rarely (if ever get +4 or +5) so that system penalizes heavily for falls and step outs. Use the old -3/+3 GOE system.

 

[concorde]

And finally the Juvs. A top Juv will have a double axel and maybe 1 triple. Juv can be 12 or younger but there are lot of 3rd or 4th year Juvs. Youth should be encouraged at this level.

The 18-19 rulebook reads
Juvenile Singles Free Skate:
a. +1.0 bonus for each double Axel achieved (under-rotated or full value), regardless of whether it is achieved as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence.
b. +1.0 bonus for one triple jump achieved (under-rotated or full value), regardless of whether it is achieved as a solo jump, or in combination or sequence.
c. Double Axels and triple jump are eligible for bonus points only if compliant with well-balanced program and repeat rules.

My revisions.
a. keep
b. change to +2
c. keep
d. Add a bonus for age. 12 gets no bonus; 11 gets 1 pt; 10 gets 2 pts. etc. Use September 1 as the cut off date (that is the date USFS uses for Regionals)
e. Do not use the current IJS -5/+5 scoring system. These are developing skaters so they will rarely (if ever get +4 or +5) so that system penalizes heavily for falls and step outs. Use the old -3/+3 GOE system.

 

[AxelAnnie]

We could talk about the funding levels all day and how it's hard for any family that's not rich to get into skating (which needs to be fixed), but I think there's another factor: culture.

In China we see kids getting taken away from home and sent to specialized sport schools and training programs from a very young age (I've heard as young as 5-6, but it's probably more like 8-10) to train in their sport full time. In Russia we see Eteri's girls (and probably other skaters) training 4-5 hours a day as young as 9 or 10. It seems a lot of the Japanese skaters work that hard from that young an age as well.

I'm not in any way saying that US skaters can't train that hard from that young an age, but that in the US this isn't really socially acceptable or common at all. Elementary school age kids (5-11) are expected to be learning and out playing in their free time, not stuck in a rink every waking hour they're not in school. In fact a lot of skaters that age who are in the rink that much are said to have crazy parents, even if the kid's the one who wants to be on the ice all that time (which is for the most part true, but not always).
Because of research about the strain of excessive training (usually the research focuses on non-skating sports, though) it seems a lot of coaches, personal trainers, and pediatricians are cautious about the amount of training kids do which makes parents cautious about going too hard before a kid is middle or high school aged. I remember the personal trainers at my gym wouldn't do any sessions with kids under 13, and the ones at the rink would only do basic group conditioning/circuit classes like you'd see in PE class because of those issues with kids overtraining and getting injured with weights and other gym equipment. Even if the child wants to train 25 hours a week most adults won't let a 10-year-old do that.
Some of the more intense training methods you see in other countries or cultures (extremely strict diets, sports schools away from families, overstretching, training through injuries, etc.) are accepted for high school age kids and adult athletes, but are in no way culturally acceptable for young athletes.
That being said, just because these things aren't culturally acceptable doesn't mean a minority of skaters/parents don't employ these tactics.
So it's not that US kids can't or won't train to elite levels at that young of an age, just that our culture doesn't encourage more intense and/or unhealthy training methods for young kids when other countries are using them. I don't think this is a problem for just the US ladies, but also in Canada and Europe: the ladies discipline is favoring really young ladies and those skaters tend to be the ones that are training hard at really young ages. Personally I'd like to see all skaters train less at a young age for a number of reasons, but I don't see that happening.

I see the problem is that we have a culture where every child gets a ribbon, where no one is better at something that another, every child can do everything...............and parents expect immediate (good) results.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah sure.

 

[skatfan]

Just wanted to add that I'm pretty sure Alysa's coach's former coach was Christy Ness (Kristi Yamaguchi's coach). I used to skate at the same rink in Oakland when Laura was a competitive skater. I recall her having strong basics and big jumps. So even though Lipetsky isn't a well-known coach, she has plenty of knowledge to pass down to Alysa.

Yes I know Alyssa and Ness was her coach but it was not a happy experience. She also took from Frank Carroll who she adored.

 

[concorde]

I see the problem is that we have a culture where every child gets a ribbon, where no one is better at something that another, every child can do everything...............and parents expect immediate (good) results.

Correct - at the very low levels. Not so as the skater gets older.

At the very low levels (below "no test"), group only tend to have 4 skaters so all will get medals (skating does not tend to give out ribbons). But around no test, groups greatly increase in size. By the time a skater hits Juv, groups can easily have 15 girls even at the non-qualifying competitions. The first year that my female skater was a Juv, she went an entire season without willing a single medal. Talk about a tough year - lots of 5ths but no 4ths.

There are alot of skaters that continue season after season without great success in winning medals. Their goal is getting a personal best.

If you remember, Ashley Wagner dubbed herself the "almost it girl" for years and then she finally got success. I think is probably found that success sweater since she had to work for hard for it.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Correct - at the very low levels. Not so as the skater gets older.

At the very low levels (below "no test"), group only tend to have 4 skaters so all will get medals (skating does not tend to give out ribbons). But around no test, groups greatly increase in size. By the time a skater hits Juv, groups can easily have 15 girls even at the non-qualifying competitions. The first year that my female skater was a Juv, she went an entire season without willing a single medal. Talk about a tough year - lots of 5ths but no 4ths.

There are alot of skaters that continue season after season without great success in winning medals. Their goal is getting a personal best.

If you remember, Ashley Wagner dubbed herself the "almost it girl" for years and then she finally got success. I think is probably found that success sweater since she had to work for hard for it.

I was actually addressing why we don't have a cadre of Russian wonders in the wings. Ribbons was used as a metaphor. And I am addressing competitive skating.
There are wonderful accomplishments to be had in skating...each time you do a new school. But whatever fire is burning in the bellies of the Russian and Japanese kids is not beating in the USA.

 

[Coco]

The success of US citizens in 'individual' Olympic sports is really tied to the strength of the economy when the athlete was between ages 8 and 14.

That's my theory, anyway.

Loads and loads of kids probably had to be pulled out of lessons (swimming, skating, etc.) from 2007ish to 2012ish. It's no surprise that we had a downturn in the 2018 Games in a variety of sports.

 

[VGThuy]

Our last American Olympic champion, Charlie White, said those participation ribbons and trophies are the reason he kept going as that sort of encouragement is nice. However, kids aren't stupid. The ones that want more than that will be the type who will want to win and will work towards it. The ones who are just satisfied to be there won't be competitive with or without those things but they see it as a nice thing to have.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I see the problem is that we have a culture where every child gets a ribbon, where no one is better at something that another, every child can do everything...............and parents expect immediate (good) results.

Our last American Olympic champion, Charlie White, said those participation ribbons and trophies are the reason he kept going as that sort of encouragement is nice. However, kids aren't stupid. The ones that want more than that will be the type who will want to win and will work towards it. The ones who are just satisfied to be there won't be competitive with or without those things but they see it as a nice thing to have.

I am in the middle, it does not have to be "all or nothing". All participants should be given a token of acknowledgement, a ribbon, a participation certificate, to reward and to encourage participation. Yet the top 3 or 4 (as in USA's system) should be given an additional reward/trophy/medal for doing better than others.

There are other opinions about "participation trophies" and their effect on child's perception of his/her role/accomplishments. And i agree with this one.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...rticipation-trophies-send-a-dangerous-message

Trophies used to be awarded only to winners, but are now little more than party favors: reminders of an experience, not tokens of true achievement. When awards are handed out like candy to every child who participates, they diminish in value.
--
Trophies for all convey an inaccurate and potentially dangerous life message to children: We are all winners. This message is repeated at the end of each sports season, year after year, and is only reinforced by the collection of trophies that continues to pile up. We begin to expect awards and praise for just showing up — to class, practice, after-school jobs — leaving us woefully unprepared for reality.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I am in the middle, it does not have to be "all or nothing". All participants should be given a token of acknowledgement, a ribbon, a participation certificate, to reward and to encourage participation. Yet the top 3 or 4 (as in USA's system) should be given an additional reward/trophy/medal for doing better than others.

There are other opinions about "participation trophies" and their effect on child's perception of his/her role/accomplishments. And i agree with this one.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...rticipation-trophies-send-a-dangerous-message

I agree with you. Participation should be rewarded and acknowledged.
I am speaking more about something that has become embedded in American culture.

Years ago I was President of a Jewish Day school.
A fourth grade teacher said she would have an ice cream party for all kids who completed and turned in all their homework assignments. Something totally within each child's ability. Well 3 kids did not turn in their assignments and and three kids did not go to the ice cream party...which was not during class time.

AND three sets of parents turned up in the headmaster's office Monday crying Not Fair.

They were not concerned that their child did not get their homework in....they were concerned their kid did not get ice cream.

It is a cultural thing here...I hope it does not expand across the sea.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It is a cultural thing here...I hope it does not expand across the sea.

It came from "across the sea", to my great dismay..

 

[DreamSkates]

I feel that during the post Michelle Kwan era, we stopped producing a decent pool of female skaters who did well in the Senior International Elite levels. We did have SOME successes, but we haven't had a US female Senior World Champion since Kimmie Meissner in 2006. Ashley Wagner was our last World Silver medalist in 2016.

In the US, I feel like we praise the "artiste" and heckle the athlete. Unfortunately, that led to a huge drought in female US world medalists. We also tend to play favorites and send those we like instead of those who will win. In the end, the athlete wins on the world stage.

To win the big competitions, I do think, we need good technicians like Alysa Liu for the US to earn International medals.

I remember Nathan Chen saying he thought about the state of US Men's skating vs the world (quads) and decided to do something about it. Now look where he is. Maybe Bradie Tennell has the prowess to keep working toward a world podium finish.
There is a reason why there are several non US ladies skaters whose scores are far ahead of most ladies skaters in the US, and could compete with some of the men.

 

[VGThuy]

I am in the middle, it does not have to be "all or nothing". All participants should be given a token of acknowledgement, a ribbon, a participation certificate, to reward and to encourage participation. Yet the top 3 or 4 (as in USA's system) should be given an additional reward/trophy/medal for doing better than others.

This is where I am too. I think it's nice to acknowledge that by just participating and doing something to encourage them coming back. I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement. However, I also think we need to reward excellence as well and not hold back on acknowledging when someone or some people did better. Linda Leaver, Brian Boitano's coach, used to encourage all skaters by having different sorts of competitions (like best sit spin) or whatever so it gives everyone a chance to be rewarded for their strengths. If I remember what I read correctly, it was because Boitano as a boy was so talented that she wanted to give other skaters a chance to be acknowledged too so they would be encouraged to keep going. I'm sure most kids knew Boitano was way better but I think getting some positive reinforcement for that day encouraged them on as well. I just remember when my siblings were younger and I would take them to their piano/guitar lessons and they'd remember all of the comments their teacher would give them. They remembered the things they had to work on to improve but they were really happy to hear the positive comments as well.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

My thought has always been but thats not how the real world works. I don't get a certificate or a ribbon for showing up to work and participating. But If I am a top producer than I get rewarded and acknowledged.

Also if your not a hoarder then what do you want with a certificate or a ribbon?

Im kinda like Lucy in "Charlie Brown." Cold, hard cash please! I also accept PayPal and venmo.

 

[VGThuy]

Your paycheck is your participation trophy, and in many companies, people do keep track of how long you've been there and give you some sort of notation for it.

 

[Clutz]

Your paycheck is your participation trophy, and in many companies, people do keep track of how long you've been there and give you some sort of notation for it.

. .....as long as you are a producer. If you don't produce, you get dropped by the side road, unless you live in a socialistic Nancy Pelosi society that seeks to reward losers and beats down the contributors.

 

[VGThuy]

. .....as long as you are a producer. If you don't produce, you get dropped by the side road, unless you live in a socialistic Nancy Pelosi society that seeks to reward losers and beats down the contributors.

That sounds like the society in your head. Where is this place so I can become a "loser" and get rewarded.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I took a training course at work for which there were activities, but no tests. I received a certificate for attending. That doesn't mean I passed the certification test, which is a separate certificate.

I don't think I'm a singular genius for knowing the difference.

 

[Prancer]

I see the problem is that we have a culture where every child gets a ribbon, where no one is better at something that another, every child can do everything

I find this concept of childhood bizarre and wonder if the people who constantly bring this up actually have any regular contact with children--and by children I don't mean one or two kids in the family, but groups of children.

Select teams for sports start when kids are in third grade in most of the US. That would be when most kids are around eight years old, which to me seems rather early. Should we really start focusing on kill-or-be-killed competitiveness when kids are in preschool?

I find this kind of assertion particularly bizarre when we are talking about competitions for young kids in which there are placements

 

[Coco]

Kids always know...the participation trophies are more for their parents than for them.

 

[Vagabond]

Once children reach about second grade, they start to realize that some of them are better at specific things, whether it be due to preparation, talent, or other circumstances, and that this isn't just because of being older and more developed. Someone who thinks that children do not come to understand this has probably never been a child herself.

 

[jlai]

In US, competition in childhood seems to exist more in sports than school. With some exceptions, school is more cooperative than competitive. Just an observation.
That doesn't mean there aren't people who want to make things easier for young athletes. e.g. Every year, we talk about how USFS should give as many byes as possible so more young athletes can advance through sectionals to nationals. (ANd I'm pretty sure USFS already gives more byes than many other countries.) And there is the pewter medal at domestic competitions. And skaters who switch to another club to make it easier to qualify.
Perhaps the new national structure will change some of this, maybe not.

 

[Maximillian]

Oh gosh, I remember getting ribbons for participation for sports in the early '80s and I knew the difference between that and winning the competition. I was a terrible athlete so I received a LOT of them and they did nothing but affirm that reality. I still knew who crossed the finish line first.

 

[missing]

This quote from Eddie the Eagle seems apropos:

“I was a true amateur and embodied what the Olympic spirit is all about,” he says. “To me, competing was all that mattered. Americans are very much ‘Win! Win! Win!’ In England, we don’t give a fig whether you win. It’s great if you do, but we appreciate those who don’t. The failures are the people who never get off their bums. Anyone who has a go is a success.”