U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[Frida80]

Do NOT do this. This is super creepy. If I had a 12 year old daughter and I got a letter like this, I'd want to run for the hills.

They are asking for donations for training. And she's already a US junior champ. Based on her social media, she has a fan following already. But this was just a suggestion off the top of my head, not that I put much thought into it. I'm just completely sick of people saying that her technique is awful so she's going to lose her jumps. Instead of whining about it, why not just tell him instead? I find all this complaining grating.

 

[Frida80]

@Frida80 why should Liu be pushed to a new coach? Should she go to someone like Gambill and Tom Z who are delivering those world medalists non stop? Beyond the skater, it’s time to give unproven coaches a chance and we might be pleasantly surprised.

I don't think she should be moved to a new head coach. I'm very sick of the habit of telling skaters to move to big names coach. People seem to have not noticed it often backfires. Tom Z, Rafael, and Brian are all overloaded with students. There is no guarantee that a new skater would get the attention he or she needs. It's not a real solution. However, I do think having specialist that you occasionally visit are a good idea. Like a spin coach to improve the quality of your spins. Or heading to a coach that can help with your edge quality.


Now that I've thought about it, I honestly don't believe in a zero sum game. I never have. I don't believe that a skater with superb skating skills will have the best consistency and can do jump win ease. You only have to look at Patrick Chan to see that. I also don't believe that things are hopeless for Alysa. She's just 13. When Gracie was 13, she didn't even have her flip or loop yet! I just feel like she is so much time to improve on the quality of her skating. I already see improvement over the season. She's going into her 3A with more speed, the entrance time has reduced from 7 seconds to 4, they are better rotated. I just don't see her as the type to Reston her laurels and not work on the quality of her skating.

So I wish people would change the message from: She's going to lose her jumps" to " She needs to work on this for the future." It just seems less negative and more constructive.

 

[VGThuy]

In my many years being a skating fan, I’ve seen teenaged Tara Lipinski, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Sarah Hughes (especially), Fumie Suguri, Yoshie Onda, even Shizuka Arakawa (lipper), Caroline Zhang (especially), Mira Leung, Alissa Czisny, Ashley Wagner, Yukina Ota, Yukari Nakano, Mao Asada (URs and edge), Satoko Miyahara, Juila Lipnitskaya, Evgenia Medvedeva, and any skater with edge issues and UR issues discussed. On the men’s side, teenaged Vincent Zhou was spoken about and is still spoken about regarding his technique, and with the calls the way they are that sort of discussion has been validated. Starr Andrews’ actual skating foundation is being spoken about because people think it’ll prevent her from reaching the next level to be competitive, Mirai’s jumps were seriously spoken about when it became clear she had UR issues throughout her career, and now Bradie’s is though less so because her UR issues are being addressed and some times her combos do get clean calls though there were tons of calls for her to change her 3/3. However, her edge issues are being spoken about as well. Outside of jumps, many skaters have been dissected in terms of other elements or skating skills/translations related discussions or more subjectively with music and form/line/carriage.

IMO, it’s good to talk about such things when skaters are younger and can change their habits and work on their foundation because it’s better to hear it early than be angry and frustrated when they’re older and wondering why nobody told them to work on such things earlier. Great jump and skating technique doesn’t happen when a skater becomes over 18, but has to be worked on way earlier to develop the proper foundations. Sure some skaters will be successful early on with ambitious jumps but with calling being as strict as it is now and with skating skills and transitions being as important as it is, it’s better to not rely on the generosity of judges GOE that can be taken away if they move on to the next young skater and they start finally judging your deficiencies appropriately leaving you wondering why you got away with it previously.

 

[NAOTMAA]

^^^^
Reading your post it kind of occurred to me that it feels like the ladies tend to get nitpicked and hammered by fans far more then the men do (Vincent Zhou being the exception). Yeah it gets addressed with them but never at the level and extent it does with the ladies.

Are the ladies really that much far worse then the men when it comes to urs and edges or are fans for some reason just more picky with them? Why are they worse at it then the men are if they are?

 

[gkelly]

IMO, it’s good to talk about such things when skaters are younger and can change their habits and work on their foundation because it’s better to hear it early than be angry and frustrated when they’re older and wondering why nobody told them to work on such things earlier.

The value of discussing technique on a fan forum is for fans to learn more about skating technique.

It's not the appropriate place for fans to be telling skaters what they should be working on.

That should be happening with the skaters' coaches, officials, older skaters serving as role models, parents of older skaters offering advice to newer parents, and other such sources who have more expertise, authority, and knowledge of the specific skater's current situation than any of us have here.

 

[kwanfan1818]

This is a figure skating forum. We can pretty much discuss anything but the little that's been officially forbidden. That includes all of the unsolicited advice, arm chair coaching and judging, program, technique, partnership, packaging, make up, costumes, music, and choreography critiques, and psychoanalysis-from-a-distance we can muster.

Skaters and parents read here at their own risk. If they do read and blindly follow anyone's advice from here, then they're not very bright.

 

[UGG]

I thought it was interesting, per the article posted, Alysa has to talk herself out of thinking she is the best in the world. Hopefully an adult will point out that most recently, Nagasu had a 3 axle and didn't win Nationals, Worlds, or Olympics because of it.

"I’m like, ‘Omigod, I have a triple Axel, and not a lot of people in the world have it.’ Then I tell myself, ‘Don’t think you’re the best in the world. You’re not the best yet.’”

Hopefully she does not grow a sense of entitlement, which seemed to happen to some of the US ladies who were overly hyped and experienced success very young when they were teeny tiny tweens pre growth spurts.

 

[Spiralgraph]

^^ She's 13, she's still a kid and kids get carried away pretty easily with their enthusiasm. When she reaches seniors in January she'll get a first hand lesson that jumps are great but they're not everything. If and when she gets to the Junior Grand Prix and starts winning medals consistently, then her dreams of being the best will have more substance. But there's no harm for her to plan ahead.

 

[feraina]

Mirai won nationals only a year older and with similar strengths in jumps relative to the senior field then (and weakness in presentation that were never fully addressed).

Just saying it can happen to Alysa too. And if this is the peak of her career, then that'd be too bad. But if she skates clean then she deserves it. She’s no worse than the young jumping phenoms in Japan and Russia winning their senior championships. Are their ladies’ programs hurting?

 

[jiejie]

Are the ladies really that much far worse then the men when it comes to urs and edges or are fans for some reason just more picky with them? Why are they worse at it then the men are if they are?

Yes, in general ladies are that much worse than the men w/respect to urs and edges. My guess is that in their earlier learning stages, their coaches allowed them to get away with flawed technique and "cheats" whereas with boys, not so much. Also, most boys/young men also have enough power to hold correct edges going into the jumps when they do learn correct technique, girls sometimes don't have enough power early on, even if they know what they should be trying to do--which can unfortunately lead to muscle memory sticking with flawed technique. And remember that it wasn't that long ago that tech panels/judges were more lenient compared to now, so what could be eked out without repercussion has now changed. There do seem to be a few Favored Skaters that tech panels are blind to their faults, but that's another thread topic.

And their are exceptions among the ladies. Liza Tuk very seldom gets a UR on her triples (exc maybe 3A, which is a special case) nor edge calls. Likely reason: Papa Mishin has never put up with it. Liza as a junior skater had very very solid jump technique, and it has held up through growth and puberty.

 

[feraina]

I don’t think girls learn worse techniques than men. But girls bodies undergo much greater changes through puberty, all of which are detrimental to jumping high, rotating fast, and doing so from an outside edge (for the lutz).

 

[jiejie]

I don’t think girls learn worse techniques than men. But girls bodies undergo much greater changes through puberty, all of which are detrimental to jumping high, rotating fast, and doing so from an outside edge (for the lutz).

I've seen so many young girl skaters in the USA learning the lutz and getting beams of approval from local coaches when a blind man could tell they are flutzing. And it never gets fixed..at least until they start getting dinged in competitions. Relatively few young skaters in the USA start out with top national coaches; most of them start with one or a series of local coaches whose goal isn't necessarily to produce national-caliber competitors--and some of which are good and strict on proper technique, some of which are not so strict. I took up skating at the ripe age of 34 and when learning the lutz, demanded that my coach (who was strict anyway) give me zero pats on the back unless attempts were absolutely off the back outside edge (and fully rotated). But then, I didn't have a parent breathing down the coach's neck, eager for positive "results" to justify the coaching fees.

 

[feraina]

The question is not whether girls flutz, its whether they do it more than boys, and if that’s because of their own fault (or their parents’ or their coaches’) as opposed to it's just harder for them because of biology. I find it slightly misogynistic to blame it ALL on a lack of will or discipline.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I've seen so many young girl skaters in the USA learning the lutz and getting beams of approval from local coaches when a blind man could tell they are flutzing. And it never gets fixed..at least until they start getting dinged in competitions. Relatively few young skaters in the USA start out with top national coaches; most of them start with one or a series of local coaches whose goal isn't necessarily to produce national-caliber competitors--and some of which are good and strict on proper technique, some of which are not so strict. I took up skating at the ripe age of 34 and when learning the lutz, demanded that my coach (who was strict anyway) give me zero pats on the back unless attempts were absolutely off the back outside edge (and fully rotated). But then, I didn't have a parent breathing down the coach's neck, eager for positive "results" to justify the coaching fees.

I have said for a billion years. If a fultz got zero points and zero pcs we would see gorgeous lutz's in a New York minute?

 

[VGThuy]

The value of discussing technique on a fan forum is for fans to learn more about skating technique.

It's not the appropriate place for fans to be telling skaters what they should be working on.

That should be happening with the skaters' coaches, officials, older skaters serving as role models, parents of older skaters offering advice to newer parents, and other such sources who have more expertise, authority, and knowledge of the specific skater's current situation than any of us have here.

That sounds sort of elitist to me, and obviously given the state of U.S. skating, it seems the coaches, officials, older skaters serving as role models, and parents of skaters, and other sources haven't really helped the situation in 10 years or so as U.S. ladies have been struggling. To me, even "experts" give bad advice, so what's appropriate for a skater is to take whatever advice given and pick which ones to listen to and feels right for them. Many skaters have done well ignoring supposed experts and others have done extremely well listening to the one that they feel helps benefit them. However, it never hurts to hear how other people are seeing your skating. You just have to learn to filter which ones seem objective and right and which ones are from people who have ulterior motives OR simply do not understand your style of skating can still do well.

This a forum. Unless any one of us goes up to a skater in person and tells them what they need to work on unsolicited, then there is no issue if they post it on the a forum. If that person some how reads the forum or has people who does it, then they are the runs who risk reading it. Still, just like that busy body coach who isn't the coach of that skater, that nosy official(s) who means well but gives damaging advice (a la Tonya), or another well-known experts who are trying to be helpful, it's all unsolicited and equally inappropriate. What difference does it make if it's a fan or an official when the skater never asked? And if the skater and/or coach wants to ignore such advice, it's well within their rights and we'll see the results of it for better or worse.

 

[gkelly]

I'm not saying that fans shouldn't post about technique on a fan forum. Post away! We can all learn something here.

What I am saying is that the likelihood that skaters or coaches will learn something about skating technique that they don't already know from fan posts is very low.

And therefore that we should not think of the posts here as a responsibility to the skaters and coaches, without which the skaters could not succeed.

Any poster who knows enough about skating technique to solve skaters' technique problems should be out there coaching rather than (just) posting. (Yes, it would be possible to do both.)

 

[jiejie]

The question is not whether girls flutz, its whether they do it more than boys, and if that’s because of their own fault (or their parents’ or their coaches’) as opposed to it's just harder for them because of biology. I find it slightly misogynistic to blame it ALL on a lack of will or discipline.

If you're accusing me of misogyny, you are quite off base, I assure you. And I did not blame lack of will or discipline as the root cause of the development of wonky techniques that don't last. I've seen quite a number of skaters with iron wills and incredible self-discipline and dedication....still working bad edges and ur's to the hilt. One of those situations where the definition of insanity (doing same thing over and over again and expecting a different result) applies.

I'm not finding the biology difference theory that convincing and especially for edge calls. (UR's, yes there is validity to that for post-puberty jump alteration). Most of the female skaters with edge issues, developed them earlier than puberty, usually when they were learning doubles. Translated into triples, any problems get magnified. A decent coach once told me that learning proper technique on doubles required fixing your singles, and learning proper technique on triples required fixing your doubles. I started skating too old to test that theory personally, but observationally, it often seems to be the case. I've watched some coaches teaching triples, and going back to taking apart the skater's doubles and painstakingly fixing technique issues with those first.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I don’t think girls learn worse techniques than men. But girls bodies undergo much greater changes through puberty, all of which are detrimental to jumping high, rotating fast, and doing so from an outside edge (for the lutz).

But A LOT of girls seem to have bad technique pre-puberty as well when they're tiny and can barely reach the top of the boards.

Maybe coaches and adults at the rink are a lot more hesitant and reluctant to be critical with young girls then they are with boys. People are less likely to think of a boys feelings then a girls and therefore wouldn't have a problem being more direct. Boys are expected to be tough and take it while not so much with girls.

 

[binbinwinwin]

But A LOT of girls seem to have bad technique pre-puberty as well when they're tiny and can barely reach the top of the boards.

Maybe coaches and adults at the rink are a lot more hesitant and reluctant to be critical with young girls then they are with boys. People are less likely to think of a boys feelings then a girls and therefore wouldn't have a problem being more direct. Boys are expected to be tough and take it while not so much with girls.

Not quite, I think where I am the young girls get harsher criticism, they're nicer with boys because there's a lot less of them. The problem is that FS at a lower level just has way more girls, so competition is tougher. You need to progress faster so they don't always address technical shortcomings because you need to stand out of 50 girls at the rink while the boys only compete with maybe 7-10 others.

 

[vesperholly]

There are also a lot of lower level coaches who either don’t know how to teach good technique or don’t care to - because if you’re strict, kids get discouraged and quit so there goes your livelihood. Teaching a single which will become a double or triple is different than teaching “just” the single.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Not quite, I think where I am the young girls get harsher criticism, they're nicer with boys because there's a lot less of them. The problem is that FS at a lower level just has way more girls, so competition is tougher. You need to progress faster so they don't always address technical shortcomings because you need to stand out of 50 girls at the rink while the boys only compete maybe 7-10 others.

Just like in ballet.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Regarding gymnastics vs skating... Basically everyone I know who has a daughter has had them in gymnastics at some point. I do not know one person with a child in figure skating. It seems like it is a much more affordable sport to participate in.

That can be region specific. I am in upstate NY and almost every kid gets at least a few years of learn to skate lessons in elementary school. Hockey is huge here and there's a big culture of ice skating - lots and lots of rinks.

My friends with kids would pick figure skating over gymnastics or skiing any time (and it’s not a matter of money, or regional or rink proximity). It’s about safety and injuries. The perception is: in skating first few years one can hurt one's butt or break a leg or an arm and need a surgery. In gymnastics and slalom skiing you can break your spine and become quadriplegic even in entry level.

.. why should Liu be pushed to a new coach? Should she go to someone like Gambill and Tom Z who are delivering those world medalists non stop? Beyond the skater, it’s time to give unproven coaches a chance and we might be pleasantly surprised.

I had to look up Alysa’s coach, and she is Lora Lipetzkaya, who as a young girl came here with her parents from Russia.. I’ve met her parents once at a party… small world. (no wonder I like Alysa’s style).

That said, while I believe in coach-pupil partings if done decently, privately and mutually respectably, i do not believe that a skater must “sacrifice him/herself” to give coach a chance… One has a right to move up to “better” and not as a private individual be a experiment in “spread the wealth” or “equal distribution” scheme.. one has only one life.

 

[Frida80]

Not quite, I think where I am the young girls get harsher criticism, they're nicer with boys because there's a lot less of them. The problem is that FS at a lower level just has way more girls, so competition is tougher. You need to progress faster so they don't always address technical shortcomings because you need to stand out of 50 girls at the rink while the boys only compete with maybe 7-10 others.

Same here. The girls got it hard. There always so many of them. They all slowly peeled off. Which is a shame since in my state there isn't a large figure skating presence like Colorado or California.

 

[VGThuy]

My friends with kids would pick figure skating over gymnastics or skiing any time (and it’s not a matter of money, or regional or rink proximity). It’s about safety and injuries. The perception is: in skating first few years one can hurt one's butt or break a leg or an arm and need a surgery. In gymnastics and slalom skiing you can break your spine and become quadriplegic even in entry level.

I don’t know if it’s rational, but that’s how I would feel or do feel as well. I remember gymnast Tabitha Yim’s mom saying she made her daughter pick one between figure skating and gymnastics as she did both for a long while and they chose gymnastics. Her mom said something about her feeling safer with that choice as she was seriously worried about her physical health and I remember thinking I wouldn’t have come to that same conclusion. However, does gymnastics have a lot of concussion issues? Figure skating seems to have a lot of that which is also a serious fear.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don’t know if it’s rational, but that’s how I would feel or do feel as well. I remember gymnast Tabitha Yim’s mom saying she made her daughter pick one between figure skating and gymnastics as she did both for a long while and they chose gymnastics. Her mom said something about her feeling safer with that choice as she was seriously worried about her physical health and I remember thinking I wouldn’t have come to that same conclusion. However, does gymnastics have a lot of concussion issues? Figure skating seems to have a lot of that which is also a serious fear.

I am sure different parents have different concerns and perception about dangers of each sport. I personally understand why parents would think that gymnastics and slalom has higher probability of permanent spinal damage, vs. broken arm/leg.

 

[VGThuy]

I am sure different parents have different concerns and perception about dangers of each sport. I personally understand why parents would think that gymnastics and slalom has higher probability of permanent spinal damage, vs. broken arm/leg.

I have a friend who played football through college before law school and he said he’ll never put his kids in football because he’s absolutely afraid of concussions.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I have a friend who played football through college before law school and he said he’ll never put his kids in football because he’s absolutely afraid of concussions.

I am sure you're right. i know nothing about college football, nor do the people and their kids that i am friends with, who have kids in sports. I can see football is a very dangerous sport too.

 

[Marco]

Ummm i think Gracie was medaling on the GP a lot more then Bradie has and she made the GPF a couple of times which Bradie has yet to do.

Factually yes, but looking at statistics:

From 2012/3 to 2016/7, Gracie medalled 5 times (6 if you count the time in France when the event was cut short) over 5 seasons. That is 6 medals over 10 tries. I am not counting 2017/8 and 2018/9 for obvious reasons.

Bradie has been to 3 GPs and medalled in 2. We will probably get a better sense once she is given more opportunities. She did also win a couple of senior Bs this season.

Anyway, my original point was Ashley has been much more sure-in on the GPs than any lady that has emerged since, and she has great longevity, and that includes both Gracie and Bradie. Ashley's stat was 14 medals over 22 tries, or 17 medals over 27 tries including GPF.

 

[DimaToe]

My friends with kids would pick figure skating over gymnastics or skiing any time (and it’s not a matter of money, or regional or rink proximity). It’s about safety and injuries. The perception is: in skating first few years one can hurt one's butt or break a leg or an arm and need a surgery. In gymnastics and slalom skiing you can break your spine and become quadriplegic even in entry level.



I had to look up Alysa’s coach, and she is Lora Lipetzkaya, who as a young girl came here with her parents from Russia.. I’ve met her parents once at a party… small world. (no wonder I like Alysa’s style).

That said, while I believe in coach-pupil partings if done decently, privately and mutually respectably, i do not believe that a skater must “sacrifice him/herself” to give coach a chance… One has a right to move up to “better” and not as a private individual be a experiment in “spread the wealth” or “equal distribution” scheme.. one has only one life.

You always are very able to twist someone’s words @Tinami Amori I feel like most of us get your rant of “The supreme will rise” “the weak are useless” “equality is stupid” or whatever version of what I said fits your mood on said day. I just pointed out that if a said coaching system hasn’t given results then it’s time to go give a chance to something new, it’s how your beloved Titberidze rose to fame isn’t it?

 

[Tinami Amori]

You always are very able to twist someone’s words @Tinami Amori I feel like most of us get your rant of “The supreme will rise” “the weak are useless” “equality is stupid” or whatever version of what I said fits your mood on said day. I just pointed out that if a said coaching system hasn’t given results then it’s time to go give a chance to something new, it’s how your beloved Titberidze rose to fame isn’t it?

Then explain to me what your phrase means?
".. why should Liu be pushed to a new coach? Should she go to someone like Gambill and Tom Z who are delivering those world medalists non stop? Beyond the skater, it’s time to give unproven coaches a chance and we might be pleasantly surprised."?

It reads to me as following: One should not immediately look for a coach who delivers medalists non-stop, because it leaves less accomplished coaches without a chance to prove them selves. In other words, take a chance with your career, to help a career of another.....

Re Tutberidze's rise. while she was a starting coach, those who stayed with her had their reasons other than "to help Eteri's career"...