U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

[AxelAnnie]

You've just described most of the ice dance field from worlds!

Irrespective of where they live, I actually see nothing wrong with pairing athletes that have the strongest potential. If it weren't for his coaches' foresight, Harley Windsor would have left the sport long before he was matched with Ekaterina Alexandrovskaya. Their technique, it has to be said, is almost identical, and allowed them to quickly progress. Prior to skating with her, he had very little pairs experience, too.

Hence the silliness of the Olympic team event.

 

[RoseRed]

I believe it's generally only about two years in Canada after getting permanent residency. (Five years is the American standard and I know that it's quite a bit longer than the Canadian standard. It's actually more complicated than that because it has to do with total time and your time prior to PR status counts as 50% and you can't count time you are out of the country but my recollection is a bit vague.) Regardless, you are correct that Canada does have an exception process for people with particular talents, and Lubov, Kaitlyn Weaver, and Piper Gilles all used this exception. That said, the exception is written into the law and is there for people who meet the qualifications of it as written and there are ways to meet it outside of sports (I recall artistic talent being on the list too). So it's not like a special exception is made for every potential Olympian.

It's five years for some group, maybe refugees? Because I know that the Syrian refugees brought in got an exception so it was only 3 years.

 

[Erin]

It's five years for some group, maybe refugees? Because I know that the Syrian refugees brought in got an exception so it was only 3 years.

The Government of Canada website (which I would consider a reliable source ) says you have to be physically present in Canada for 1095 days (3 years) during the five years right before the date you sign your application and confirms what I said about the time before gaining permanent residency status counting only 50%:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...ship/become-canadian-citizen/eligibility.html.

Basically, if you never left the country, you could do it in four years total - it usually takes two years to get permanent residency and that would count as one year, then you would need another two years after that. People usually do leave the country so it takes a few months longer. Also, if there are delays in getting permanent residency, then that would also slow the process down because your time doesn't count for as much, but could also mean less time after getting permanent residency. Although since you can only could up to a year before you get permanent residency, it's always going to be at least two years after PR status, which is probably how I came up with that number.

Anyway, sorry, this has nothing to do with US ladies.

 

[Bellanca]

(not questioning your right to think the way you do).. but do you really think it is acceptable for one country's sports Federation to bluntly try to steal (with money offers) athletes from another Federation?

Maybe not acceptable, but also not too surprising.

$$$ can talk in a way that loyalty and patriotism cannot. Pretty depressing, right? However, I’m not so sure it would be that cut-and-dried for the skater.

In the end, it is entirely up to the individual's conscience to guide them, and I am not suggesting that if the skater should accept the offer to compete for and represent China, they’ve made the wrong decision for themselves, personally…

We would not know their circumstances, unless shared, as to why they ultimately made that decision. I mentioned $$$ being the obvious enticement, but there could be numerous, viable reasons.

 

[ilovepaydays]

as you said, there is a diff. between "poaching" and athletes seeking alternatives when not wanted in their own country.

Maybe not acceptable, but also not too surprising.

$$$ can talk in a way that loyalty and patriotism cannot. Pretty depressing, right? However, I’m not so sure it would be that cut-and-dried for the skater.

In the end, it is entirely up to the individual's conscience to guide them, and I am not suggesting that if the skater should accept the offer to compete for and represent China, they’ve made the wrong decision for themselves, personally…

We would not know their circumstances, unless shared, as to why they ultimately made that decision. I mentioned $$$ being the obvious enticement, but there could be numerous, viable reasons.

In track & field, countries like UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Turkey, Azerbaijan, etc. had been offering money to athletes from places like Nigeria, Ethiopia, and Kenya for years. The IAAF has currently a pause in all country transfers because of concerns over possible exploitation.

And then there was the major ruckus over Belarus giving citizenship to two U.S. gymnasts because it was thought that they would be more likely to get Belarus spots for the 2016 Olympics. I heard there was anger from those on the Belarusssian national team.

 

[Willin]

@ilovepaydays That's a good point. Imagine how the Chinese girls training to compete in Beijing 2022 would feel knowing that their country lacks faith in their ability to be competitive. Imagine working so hard under the insanely strict Chinese training program - probably away from your family and friends and without a good education - and then being told it's a moot point because better girls from another country want your spot.
I feel so bad for those Belarussian gymnasts...

 

[Bellanca]

@ilovepaydays That's a good point. Imagine how the Chinese girls training to compete in Beijing 2022 would feel knowing that their country lacks faith in their ability to be competitive. Imagine working so hard under the insanely strict Chinese training program - probably away from your family and friends and without a good education - and then being told it's a moot point because better girls from another country want your spot.
I feel so bad for those Belarussian gymnasts...

A portion of this post could easily apply to USFS, too.

 

[kwanatic]

A portion of this post could easily apply to USFS, too.

Amen to that! Only difference is I think the US is too cheap to try to pilfer skaters from other countries.

 

[Sylvia]

My two cents: Since the skaters' families are footing the bills and making the day-to-day sacrifices for their skating children, I would never blame the skater or their family for choosing to represent another country internationally if the opportunity arises and especially if much-needed financial incentives are available. Obviously, if their parents or grandparents immigrated from that country, it "looks better" for switching to that particular country, regardless if the skater knows the language at all.

The bottom line is that competitive skaters who are serious about their training year-round all dream to have the chance to compete internationally, be it at a JGP, senior international, Euros/4CC, Worlds and maybe even an Olympics. If another skating federation and country's laws allow it and can make this happen, why not?

But, as @jlai succinctly put it earlier:

Having said that, the downside of someone paying is that you don't have as much say in this. WHat if you look promising now but get injured two years from now?

 

[Tinami Amori]

this is not official, but Raf Aratunyan in a conversation with a Russian journalist, said that "Ashley Wagner may stay 1 more year and is considering to remain in competition. she will give her final decision first week in August 2018".

 

[berthesghost]

That’s a bit crazy

 

[mag]

August seems to be a late start if she planning to skate on the GP Series.

 

[soogar]

Zijun Li was their best bet for a few years and was brilliant at times, with her FS at worlds in 2013 being the highlight of her career IMO. Sadly she struggled a lot her last few seasons before finally retiring recently.

China doesn't have any prospects. They had only one entry at junior worlds this year, Hongyi Chen, and she placed 18th. Senior level isn't much better. Xiangning Li didn't make it past the SP...

I don't know if 4 years is enough time to get someone into the ranks but it'd be sad if China doesn't even have a skater make it to the FS in Beijing. Dabin Choi's performances and top 10 placement in Korea was wonderful...if China hopes to come close to that they have a lot of work to do.

I don't understand why the Chinese don't recruit girls from the South for figure skating. They use all these tall northern Chinese skaters for pairs and the south is loaded with small girls who should have no problem learning triple jumps. They get most of their gymnasts from the South.

 

[VGThuy]

I guess they choose from a pool that they know best. Maybe it's harder to recruit young kids from areas in which skating hasn't been established.

 

[Tinami Amori]

That’s a bit crazy

August seems to be a late start if she planning to skate on the GP Series.

the following info is now in the article: https://rsport.ria.ru/figure_skating/20180507/1136543961.html

American skater, Ashley Wagner, will decide on the future of her professional (skating) career not before August, but it is likely she'll continue to skate, said RA.

Американская фигуристка Эшли Вагнер примет решение по поводу будущего своей профессиональной карьеры не раньше августа, но вероятно она продолжит выступления, рассказал РИА Новости тренер спортсменки Рафаэл Арутюнян.

 

[VGThuy]

I would love to see that La La Land program again.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

this is not official, but Raf Aratunyan in a conversation with a Russian journalist, said that "Ashley Wagner may stay 1 more year and is considering to remain in competition. she will give her final decision first week in August 2018".

YASSSSSSSSSSSSSSS MAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Possibly another season of Caro and Ash. Sign me up!!!! Oh pit crewwwwwww!!!!!!!!

 

[Frau Muller]

YASSSSSSSSSSSSSSS MAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Possibly another season of Caro and Ash. Sign me up!!!! Oh pit crewwwwwww!!!!!!!!

The Senior Skins circuit, as in golf!

 

[WillyElliot]

this is not official, but Raf Aratunyan in a conversation with a Russian journalist, said that "Ashley Wagner may stay 1 more year and is considering to remain in competition. she will give her final decision first week in August 2018".

I'm wondering "Why?" If the Olympic season didn't put a fire in her belly, why bother? I'm sure she's jealous as heck that Mirai got so much attention and DWTS. She needs to just move on IMO.

 

[cbd1235]

We don't know what was up with Ashley the past season and a half. But if the scrappy underdog of all underdogs wants to skate one more season and prove everything wrong. Let her strut her stuff.

I'd definitely pay to watch it.

 

[Willin]

I'd love to see the fire that this season lit under her butt. In 2016-2017 she said it was motivation problems caused by no longer being the underdog and personal drama. Last season it seemed to be the mix of an injury and continuing motivation problems (her and everyone else being so sure she'd make the team, she didn't seem to have much urgency in her training).

I'd also love to see her go head-to-head with Mirai. I know Ashley's a lot less drama prone than when she was 18, but she has to be pretty annoyed that suddenly she's nowhere with Adam and Mirai's been his "bff" forever and ever.
TBH other than the fact that they both went to the Olympics and Adam playing that up, I wondered where the heck that narrative came from. Yes, they're good friends, but there was none of this "bffs for life" being played up before they both went to the Oscars.

 

[wickedwitch]

I don't understand why everybody assumes that Ashley is so insecure and petty regarding her friendship with Adam.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't understand why everybody assumes that Ashley is so insecure and petty regarding her friendship with Adam.

It's probably because she's insecure and petty about so many other things, like when she said this and then posted a request on Twitter that she not be criticized for what she had said.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

It's probably because she's insecure and petty about so many other things, like when she said this and then posted a request on Twitter that she not be criticized for what she had said.

what does that have to do with being petty?

I would hope ANY sportsman/woman who competes in their sport would be furious at coming in 4th... epseiclaly when there may (ahem) have been a skater who placed above you that was extremely questionable.

Of the skaters who placed 2-4 at Nats only one of them had international success on GP. Ash. Ill give her an out for SkAm after I saw what her ankle looked like. Mirai and Karen didn't come in to Nats as more of a favorite over Ash. So if I think about it Id be furious of those hideous scores too. And you can criticize or not criticize it but theres no pettiness there.

 

[cbd1235]

It's probably because she's insecure and petty about so many other things, like when she said this and then posted a request on Twitter that she not be criticized for what she had said.

Huh? That's not really what happened.

She said that. And then after being decimated on social media, she said that she stands by her words, and that as an athlete having competed at the Senior level for that long, that she's allowed to question things.

This is the same girl who got tons of death threats on twitter after 2014. She's gotta keep people in check sometimes...

 

[Vagabond]

what does that have to do with being petty?about it Id be furious of those hideous scores too. And you can criticize or not criticize it but theres no pettiness there.

It certainly has everything to do with being insecure.

If you want to see her in petty mode, go read her Twitter comments about skaters who did what she signally failed to do, skate at the 2018 Winter Olympic Games.

Huh? That's not really what happened.

Actually, it is really what happened. From the Tweet to which I linked:

Lastly Twitter, before you eat me alive, don't forget there is a real person on the other end of your tweets.

ETA: And here is a video of another U.S. Ladies skater, who, though much younger than Wagner at the time, was more much secure and circumspect in her remarks.

 

[Marco]

I don't think it's petty and insecure for Ashley to be furious about the scores she got at nationals and be upset over missing the team. It was a surprise to many, considering how they skated at that competition and how they skated that whole season.

She carried the last quad and a half for US ladies (not just by herself ofcourse) and always had a role to play in the US keeping 3 spots at Worlds. She was the only World medalist in the quad and the only one to have medalled at the GPs that season. If the US Fed decided they no longer needed her at the last minute, then they deserved the results they got without her and losing that 3rd spot at Worlds.

I definitely felt the US ladies results at the Olympics / Worlds was a huge vindication for her. Bradie skated well for her debut championships but the judges were not ready to shower her with top scores. Mirai nailed the team event ladies free and then just lost it. She totally phoned it in at Worlds too and the judges weren't impressed. Karen of course was predictably a hot mess since Nationals like she had been all season.

If she comes back, it would be because she is hungry and she still loves to compete. But she should be prepared for Racheal Flatt level scores circa 2012.

 

[nubka]

August seems to be a late start if she planning to skate on the GP Series.

That's what I thought, too! Cutting it a bit close...

 

[kwanatic]

I definitely felt the US ladies results at the Olympics / Worlds was a huge vindication for her. Bradie skated well for her debut championships but the judges were not ready to shower her with top scores. Mirai nailed the team event ladies free and then just lost it. She totally phoned it in at Worlds too and the judges weren't impressed. Karen of course was predictably a hot mess since Nationals like she had been all season.

Aside from Mirai nailing her program and the 3A in the team event, no one else stood out in Pyeongchang. Bradie was dull; Karen was blah....granted Mirai making history as well as her personality was hard for either of them to get by so, there's that.

I would think Karen's results were definitely a huge vindication for Ashley. Essentially she skated a better FS than she skated at nationals (4 triples to the 3 she had at nationals) and received nearly 10 points less in Pyeongchang.

Though Mirai didn't score well at Worlds I thought she was excellent in the FS and had anyone other than Shin Amano been the caller, she'd have scored really well. My reasoning for that goes back to the fact she received a lot of +GOE in real time for her jumps; her score dropped after Amano reviewed her jumps under a nanoscope.

If she comes back, it would be because she is hungry and she still loves to compete. But she should be prepared for Racheal Flatt level scores circa 2012.

This I definitely agree with. It's clear the USFSA is done with her. If Ashley competes it'd be a farewell season. I believe she'll get a GP or 2 (someone who knows how that works correct me if I'm wrong) and then have her farewell performances at nationals. With only two spots to Worlds next year you know she ain't gettin' one of those. Still, given everything Ashley has done for US skating over the past 6 or 7 years, I think she deserves a nice send off.

 

[GullyGirl84]

I'm actually not convinced that Ashley wouldn't be able to get one of two worlds spots. If that's what she wants. She would have to go for it though. She could certainly still be competitive among US ladies, but I think she wants more. Nationals is always political unfortunately, and she has sometimes been a beneficiary of those politics. The scores between Ashley and Karen were really interesting at nationals. I think that judges took a chance on Karen last year and were happy to see it pay off and have her help get the 3 Olympic spots, so they may have been more willing to take another risk with her this year. It was extremely close. I think that Ashley not skating in the gala afterwards showed how hurt she felt over the whole thing.

I would selfishly like to see both Mirai and Ashley continue next season (but only for themselves), the US is in a transitional phase with some talent coming up, but it's also not like it's Russia. I'm sure there is way more going on with Ashley and Mirai's bodies at this point in their competetive careers in terms of injuries, etc., that they would care not to talk about publicly. I wonder about Raf's schedule though with taking on all of these skaters. I'm pretty sure that Ashley had always said that she would skate throughout the summer and then decide what she's doing after that, so I'm not sure it's new news. Theoretically she could use her LaLa land long next season. But I think that both Ashley and Mirai might be done...we'll see.

I also really doubt that Ashley cares about the Mirai and Adam BFF stuff and think it's laughable that people want Ashley to "take Mirai on next season" for anything having to do with that. Ashley most definitely did not lack for opportunities during the Olympics, even though she did not make the team. She made a lot of money. I remember Adam saying in his TSL interview in 2013 that he was close to Christina Gao and Mirai, but that Ashley is like his family. The Mirai and Adam stuff is not wholly invented for tv either though. They spent time together when Mirai used to train in California, and he has choreographed for her/they have matching tattoos. Mirai has also called Max Settlage and Alex Johnson her "best friends".