U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[kwanatic]

Why is the US so good in ladies gymnastics then? The government doesn't fund them either and i'm sure it cost a lot to be a top gymnast but their seems to never be a lack of talented girls ready to take over from the last World champion.

I would think it has a lot to do with gymnastics being more popular and more accessible than figure skating. I don't have the exact numbers but I'd wager it's less expensive to do gymnastics. More importantly, kids can do gymnastics in school--I know both my middle and high school had gymnastics teams--and those who are talented can get full rides to great universities. That makes it worth the investment as they can pursue their passion and earn a degree.

Skaters can't get a full scholarship to a university based on figure skating AFAIK. It's a sport that drains a ton of money but has very little to no real reward for the overwhelming majority. As much as I love figure skating if I had a child I'd steer them towards dance or gymnastics and a number of other things.

Unfortunately, in the long haul figure skating just isn't worth it.

 

[toddlj]

I know this is often said, but Mirai, Starr and Bradie are all top US skaters who don't come from wealthy families. Neither did Agnes Zawadski or, if I'm not mistaken Ashley Wagner, nor Nancy Kerrigan, nor Tonya Harding. This is just off the top of my head. I don't know how they do it. Maybe coaches or rinks give such talented kids a break.

It's pretty impressive, actually. All of the above had parents who were rock-stars in terms of putting aside most other priorities for their kids, and working their butts off to fund them. (ETA: Zawadski quit earlier than she could have at least partially due to financial issues.)

 

[kwanatic]

I know this is often said, but Mirai, Starr and Bradie are all top US skaters who don't come from wealthy families. Neither did Agnes Zawadski or, if I'm not mistaken Ashley Wagner, nor Nancy Kerrigan, nor Tonya Harding. This is just off the top of my head. I don't know how they do it. Maybe coaches or rinks give such talented kids a break.

In most cases it's a major sacrifice that's made for the skater. Not everyone is that invested in the off chance that their child may excel in figure skating to upend their entire family's life. It's a major gamble that sometimes pays off...though I can't imagine the nameless/faceless skaters it didn't pay off for. What happens when the family gets into massive debt chasing a dream that never comes true? Sad to think about...

 

[concorde]

Why is the US so good in ladies gymnastics then? The government doesn't fund them either and i'm sure it cost a lot to be a top gymnast but their seems to never be a lack of talented girls ready to take over from the last World champion.

Gymnastics is ALOT cheaper than ice skating.
In gymnastics much of the coaching is done as a group; in ice skating, it is through private lessons.

Gym time is also much cheaper than ice time.

One of my co-workers has a Level 8 gymnast and we compare pricing. Both of our girls are within a year in age of each other so I think it is an apples-to-apples comparison. Fyi. Mine is a Novice ice skater.

 

[Coco]

Also, a portion of the American gymnasts' success is due to their traditional competitors majorly regressing.

 

[Willin]

I think this is the huge part of it. Japan and Russian federations fund their talented youngsters. In the US, they have to have wealthy parents, or do some real scrambling with crowdsourcing and finding donors. Highly athletic/driven kids end up being encouraged to pursue less-expensive and more accessible endeavors.

Why is the US so good in ladies gymnastics then? The government doesn't fund them either and i'm sure it cost a lot to be a top gymnast but their seems to never be a lack of talented girls ready to take over from the last World champion.

I think a huge part of it has to do with the college scholarship. At least where I am (a wealthy district where many parents could afford skating costs and have access to top coaches) the parents have zero interest in skating both because it's not a sport many grew up doing and because it won't get their kid a sports scholarship. Yes the parents can pay for the kid's tuition, but why do that when you can spend less money and brag about your kid's athletic prowess? As a result most parents choose softball, soccer, lacrosse, basketball, and volleyball for their girls and football, baseball, and basketball for the boys.

Gymnastics is just easier to get into. I remember as a kid there were the cheap classes through the town/community center, cheap classes through the YMCA, open gym time to practice at the YMCA and community center (for cheap/free), and plenty of places to get cheap equipment (basically just leotards). I'd imagine that makes it a lot more accessible and cost efficient. And then with a potential college scholarship at the end? Why should parents rather do skating than that?

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah, skating just seems more niche and it seems like it requires much more of a commitment early on than many youth-oriented sports. Although I have a cousin raised in SoCal who did skating for recreation and was getting good at it but like many young people dropped it when she became a teenager.

 

[Spun Silver]

I think a huge part of it has to do with the college scholarship. At least where I am (a wealthy district where many parents could afford skating costs and have access to top coaches) the parents have zero interest in skating both because it's not a sport many grew up doing and because it won't get their kid a sports scholarship. Yes the parents can pay for the kid's tuition, but why do that when you can spend less money and brag about your kid's athletic prowess? As a result most parents choose softball, soccer, lacrosse, basketball, and volleyball for their girls and football, baseball, and basketball for the boys.

Gymnastics is just easier to get into. I remember as a kid there were the cheap classes through the town/community center, cheap classes through the YMCA, open gym time to practice at the YMCA and community center (for cheap/free), and plenty of places to get cheap equipment (basically just leotards). I'd imagine that makes it a lot more accessible and cost efficient. And then with a potential college scholarship at the end? Why should parents rather do skating than that?

I know it's not the same as a team sport, but don't a lot of US skaters get college scholarships due in part to their skating?

 

[Jayar]

I know it's not the same as a team sport, but don't a lot of US skaters get college scholarships due in part to their skating?

No.

 

[Debbie S]

I know it's not the same as a team sport, but don't a lot of US skaters get college scholarships due in part to their skating?

Not that I'm aware of. It's possible that some of the powerhouse college synchro teams (Miami U in OH, for example) may provide partial scholarships, as I think synchro has varsity status there, but from what I've heard, it doesn't sound like it. Individual/collegiate team skating is almost always a club sport, not varsity/Division I/II/III. USFS has some scholarship programs that skaters and former skaters can apply for, but b/c those are outside scholarships, the award goes to the school and is applied toward the school contribution, not the family's.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Well the problem in the US it seems to be a lack of little girls wanting to be skaters. Or perhaps parents just can't afford it. And unfortunately, the girls who do skate aren't as naturally talented or have other issues despite the talent..

The following is just a thought, an observation, not a study or formal statistics. I suspect there maybe a connection between an increasing role of internet & social media and reduction of teenagers willing to go far in sports (not just in skating). In my fairly large circle of people i know (mostly immigrants from Old World where sports results are considered a valued accomplishment), too many teenagers drop out of sports and become Gamers and Bloggers. They quickly become popular, see immediate results and make money! sometimes very good money.

For example, my close friends' son dropped his elite level ball-room dancing and became a gamer, winning 50-60K USD annually, which for a 15 year old boy is just fantastic. He is popular, has large circle of people where he is "somebody", each game when he wins is a "prize", etc. My other friends' daughter (14), competitive figure skater/Regionals/Sectionals level suddenly became a fashion blogger and her site makes 500+ USD per month.. She is now a fashion authority with her mates and in school; she has lots of pocket money to take friends to pizzas and places; she is popular and a "Star with money", without banging her butt on the ice and waking up at 6 o'clock in the morning.

Kids do love their sports, but it is also about results, accomplishments, popularity, ambitions, being somebody.... and when there are other options (physically less challenging) to accomplish all the above, more kids chose other options.

 

[VGThuy]

I know it's not the same as a team sport, but don't a lot of US skaters get college scholarships due in part to their skating?

I think there are certain scholarships but it's not nearly on the same level as gymnastics which is a NCAA sport where like 83 colleges have full-fledged teams. Division I schools can have up to 12 gymnasts on scholarships, Division II can have up to 6, while Division III doesn't offer athletic scholarships (but there are workarounds apparently). There are about 62 Division I colleges with gymnastics teams.

What U.S. figure skating has are privately-funded scholarships they can apply for (the way many college students can find their own private scholarships available for them to apply for):

https://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84155

So yes, being a skater will make one eligible for those scholarships, but it's a wholly different animal than having a NCAA athletic scholarship.

In terms of Synchro,

https://www.usfsa.org/Content/Synchronized Skating In College - A Fact Sheet for HS students.pdf

It seems to be treated as a club sport with only 2 colleges treating it as a varsity sport (meaning school pays for sports-related expenses BUT NOT TUITION). I don't think it's like a NCAA sport where athletes can get an athletic scholarship for participating in that sport.

 

[concorde]

I think a huge part of it has to do with the college scholarship.

I disagree with your theory. I also live in a wealthy area and whenever I tell the other parents that my child skates, the first comment I hear is "Wow. I could never get up so early!" Another common theme I hear is - we want to travel on breaks (translation who in their right mind would choose to stick around here for their kids to train). It's all about choices and how a family chooses to prioritize.

And wealthy families do not care about college scholarships since they have enough cash to pay for their child's college. Most have been paying those private school tuitions since kindergarten or before. What another couple more years.

 

[theredpepper]

I know it's not the same as a team sport, but don't a lot of US skaters get college scholarships due in part to their skating?

At least as of 10 years ago when I was skating for a college club team, there were zero college scholarships for skating, at least not in the way of an NCAA sort of scholarship. Did it make you look better from an application perspective? Probably (am pretty sure it helped me get into grad school later), but brings in zero $$$ at all.

 

[attyfan]

I also think the absence of any chance of a post-competitive "pro" career discourages people from pursuing skating as a sport-of-choice. Once,, there were plenty of earning opportunities even for skaters who didn't really make it big on the international scene (two tours, pro-ams and pro events, Disson shows, etc); Even though there were not college scholarships for skaters, the skaters could at least earn enough to pay for college later. Now, there are much fewer ways to earn.

 

[concorde]

I think there are certain scholarships but it's not nearly on the same level as gymnastics which is a NCAA sport where like 83 colleges have full-fledged teams. Division I schools can have up to 12 gymnasts on scholarships, Division II can have up to 6, while Division III doesn't offer athletic scholarships (but there are workarounds apparently). There are about 62 Division I colleges with gymnastics teams.

What U.S. figure skating has are privately-funded scholarships they can apply for (the way many college students can find their own private scholarships available for them to apply for):

https://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84155

So yes, being a skater will make one eligible for those scholarships, but it's a wholly different animal than having a NCAA athletic scholarship.

In terms of Synchro,

https://www.usfsa.org/Content/Synchronized Skating In College - A Fact Sheet for HS students.pdf

It seems to be treated as a club sport with only 2 colleges treating it as a varsity sport (meaning school pays for sports-related expenses BUT NOT TUITION). I don't think it's like a NCAA sport where athletes can get an athletic scholarship for participating in that sport.

What the USFS website suggests and reality regarding any college scholarships are two different universes.

How a synchro skater skates (down) vs. How a freestyle skater skates (out) are different. At the early levels, the two are interchangeable but at a certain point, they require two different skill sets. So I would be somewhat shocked if a college suddenly gave a sport scholarship to an elite skater to be on a synchro team.

Same issue with figure skaters and hockey players. Just because a skater has good skating skills does not make him/her into a good hockey player. But I have heard certain parents make comments about turning a figure skater into a hockey player for college scholarships.

 

[VGThuy]

Same issue with figure skaters and hockey players. Just because a skater has good skating skills does not make him/her into a good hockey player. But I have heard certain parents make comments about turning a figure skater into a hockey player for college scholarships.

But all the romantic movies make it seem like all hockey players can become a figure skater with like a few weeks of training (mostly learning not to fall with having a toe pick now), and not just any figure skater but a pairs skater to boot!

 

[concorde]

But all the romantic movies make it seem like all hockey players can become a figure skater with like a few weeks of training (mostly learning not to fall with having a toe pick now), and not just any figure skater but a pairs skater to boot!

Exactly!

 

[gkelly]

Once,, there were plenty of earning opportunities even for skaters who didn't really make it big on the international scene (two tours, pro-ams and pro events, Disson shows, etc); Even though there were not college scholarships for skaters, the skaters could at least earn enough to pay for college later. Now, there are much fewer ways to earn.

That was only really true for a few years around the turn of the century -- mid-1990s to mid-2000s at best. A mere blip in the history of skating.

Before the 1990s, figure skating was a strict amateur sport so many skaters ended up quitting or turning pro at college age or as soon as they'd accomplished the biggest result they expected, in order to stop needing their parents to support them in what was essentially a hobby.

"Turning pro" might mean touring in the ranks of a show, probably not as a headliner/soloist, or it might mean coaching -- or both. Those options are still available, probably just as much as 30 years ago. And they no longer lose a skater's eligibility, which allows some skaters to continue competing beyond high school age who would otherwise have needed to quit competing for financial reasons.

For that brief few years in the mid-late 90s, turning could mean name recognition for skaters who had reached an international competitive level but not won major medals, competing in a few televised pro competitions, and more money than they could make in other professions available to them in their 20s especially without a college degree.

But even during those brief boom years, while there were big payoffs for a handful of star skaters and a living to be made for a second tier of international skaters, there was no mass of employment opportunities for the majority of skaters who passed their senior tests and/or competed at sectionals and maybe nationals.

At best, there might have been a dream of the possibility of a big payoff, but it was always a gamble, with only slightly lower odds than before or since.

 

[aftershocks]

It's time for a new generation of ladies to carry US skating into the future... Time to stop looking in the past and look to the future.

I wouldn't phrase it in these terms. It's important to understand the past in order to chart a meaningful and well-directed future. This is exactly what the ISU as a whole fails to do, and the federations too. Skaters should also be much more respected than they are, both individually and collectively.

Please don't be so dismissive of the struggles, achievements, and lessons that can be learned from the arc and trajectory of the careers of talented and driven competitors like Mirai Nagasu and Ashley Wagner, and all of the many ladies who plyed their craft on the ice for U.S. ladies over the recent and the distant past. Each and every U.S. ladies competitor who have proudly and courageously represented their country and dared to dream, deserves respect and admiration for their passion, their tireless efforts and their many contributions, large and small.

 

[Spun Silver]

^ I would add that if Mirai or Ashley feel like coming back and giving it another try, more power to them. The younger ladies will beat them if they're better, if not they won't. I don't think the judges will hold the older skaters up unless they earn it.

 

[attyfan]

That was only really true for a few years around the turn of the century -- mid-1990s to mid-2000s at best. A mere blip in the history of skating.

Before the 1990s, figure skating was a strict amateur sport so many skaters ended up quitting or turning pro at college age or as soon as they'd accomplished the biggest result they expected, in order to stop needing their parents to support them in what was essentially a hobby.

"Turning pro" might mean touring in the ranks of a show, probably not as a headliner/soloist, or it might mean coaching -- or both. Those options are still available, probably just as much as 30 years ago. And they no longer lose a skater's eligibility, which allows some skaters to continue competing beyond high school age who would otherwise have needed to quit competing for financial reasons.
...

At best, there might have been a dream of the possibility of a big payoff, but it was always a gamble, with only slightly lower odds than before or since.

Prior to the "post-whack boom", there were the Ice Capades and Ice Follies, both of which employed a lot of skaters (essentially, similar to what we now see in synchronized skating), in addition to the headliners. I remember going to see Peggy Fleming in one of those shows.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I disagree with your theory. I also live in a wealthy area and whenever I tell the other parents that my child skates, the first comment I hear is "Wow. I could never get up so early!" Another common theme I hear is - we want to travel on breaks (translation who in their right mind would choose to stick around here for their kids to train). It's all about choices and how a family chooses to prioritize.

I hear similar very often, mostly from teenagers themselves, they want more free time and less discipline than what it takes to become an elite athlete. Some of them are now pushing an idea to "go to school virtually, via Skype" while sitting in bed in their pajamas.. and to find dates and friends like in "Logan's Run"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlRMDzHYgt4

 

[Sylvia]

I saw on Instagram that Gabriella Izzo, JGP competitor and the top scoring Junior lady of the 3 Sectionals, was accepted early admission to Harvard University last week - congrats to her!

 

[aftershocks]

No.

Exactly. While it might have been prestigious and beneficial (in a well-rounded sense) for Nathan to show his background as an internationally renowned champion figure skating athlete on his college admission applications, it was surely Nathan's prodigious academic talents that admissions administrators were mainly impressed by! ETA: Obviously in combination with Nathan's athletic prominence. The athletic prominence without his academic prowess would not be as impressive, IMHO. But sure @Spun Silver, I don't know exactly what was in the heads of Yale admissions officials.

Yale has shown a willingness to accommodate Nathan in his desires to continue competing in figure skating, and his Olympic achievements are surely admired, but it's his academic smarts that got him accepted. Yale does not have a full-fledged, well-funded college scholarship figure skating program. I believe Nathan even has to find other local rinks off-campus to get in all of his needed training time. Wasn't there an anecdote about students who were flocking to the skating program that does exist on campus, just to see Nathan, being turned away because Nathan is not on the college's team!?

 

[Spun Silver]

Exactly. While it might have been prestigious and beneficial (in a well-rounded sense) for Nathan to show his background as a champion figure skating athlete on his college admission applications, it was surely Nathan's prodigious academic talents that admissions administrators were mainly impressed by!

Yale is willing to accommodate Nathan in his desires to continue competing in figure skating, and his Olympic achievements are surely admired, but it's his academic smarts that got him accepted. Yale does not have a full-fledged, well-funded college scholarship figure skating program. I believe Nathan even has to find other local rinks off-campus to get in all of his needed training time. Wasn't there an anecdote about students who were flocking to the skating program that does exist on campus, just to see Nathan, being turned away because Nathan is not on the college's team!?

May I ask how you know the reasoning of Yale's admissions committee? I ask because from everything I've read a great deal of emphasis is placed on extracurriculars these days, and Nathan's are obviously beyond stellar.

 

[aftershocks]

May I ask how you know the reasoning of Yale's admissions committee? I ask because from everything I've read a great deal of emphasis is placed on extracurriculars these days, and Nathan's are obviously beyond stellar.

I'm not implying that Nathan's combined achievements are not stellar or that admissions committees are not looking for well-rounded students. You can see that I mentioned the importance of Nathan being 'well-rounded.' Of course, what Nathan has achieved in all aspects of his young life are beyond impressive. That's actually the point I was making. Too often, in sports like basketball and football, a young athlete can get into college with a subpar academic record because those sports are so huge in popularity and bring enormous financial rewards.

My main point is that Yale is an Ivy league institution which acknowledges the importance of sports to being well-rounded (witness Rhodes scholars who are admitted to their graduate programs). At the same time, I'm quite sure the people who get in are among the higher echelon of academically accomplished youngsters, whether or not they have athletic talent.

 

[concorde]

Not sure how true this is but I have heard that elite colleges do call top skaters to ask when they would like to come to their school. If a skater is "recruited," I have no idea how the finances play out.

Why would elite colleges want skaters? Here are my thoughts

1. Schools want diversity in the interests of their students
2. Elite skaters tend to be good students
3. Elite skaters have shown perseverance over time
4. Elite skates tend to have very supportive families
5. Schools know that if families have "found" the money to pay for skating, they can also "find" the money to pay for education

All I know is that my daughter's skating friends have wound up at much more prestigious universities (Princeton and Stanford) than the siblings of her non-skating friends.

I believe there is a link but exactly what, I am not sure.

 

[Coco]

I would imagine that amongst judges and officials in their forties and older, there are a lot of people who went to prestigious schools. Perhaps there is a network amongst these older skating officials and they look out for skaters who contributed something to the sport.

 

[Tahuu]

Yeah, it seems figure skaters are well-represented in Ivies, Stanford, MIT and the likes. Wonder if Karen and Vincent get in in the early rounds.