U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[Sylvia]

I hope Amber Glenn (sb 56) and Hanna Harrell (sb 68) are given another shot to improve their SB this season. And happy that Ting Cui gets a shot in a couple weeks as she is at 45. All belong at least in the high 30's IMO.

Hanna Harrell only turned 15 in September so the only way for her to improve her ISU SB scores this season is to be assigned to Junior Worlds.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

So is Liu old enough to go to worlds should she be top 2 at Nat's??

 

[Sylvia]

Alysa Liu will be only be old enough for the JGP/Junior Worlds starting next season.

 

[Sylvia]

The 8 ladies who will be making their respective debuts in Senior at Nationals are:

Alysa Liu, 13
Hanna Harrell, 15
Pooja Kalyan, will be 16 next week
Ting Cui, turned 16 in Sept.
Akari Nakahara, turned 16 in April
Sierra Venetta, turned 18 in August
Rena Ikenishi (around 18 - she was born in Tokyo and graduated from a private NYC area high school this past year)
Julia Biechler, 20 (eta: competed in the Senior ice dance event at 2018 Nationals )

 

[rinettoii]

The 8 ladies who will be making their respective debuts in Senior at Nationals are:

Alysa Liu, 13
Hanna Harrell, 15
Pooja Kalyan, will be 16 next week
Ting Cui, turned 16 in Sept.
Akari Nakahara, turned 16 in April
Sierra Venetta, turned 18 in August
Julia Biechler, 20
Rena Ikenishi (around 18 - she was born in Tokyo and graduated from a private NYC area high school this past year)

Wow just noticed that the entire junior podium from last year are competing at Seniors.

 

[Dobre]

Wow just noticed that the entire junior podium from last year are competing at Seniors.

The same was true last year.

 

[Sylvia]

In case anyone was wondering about 2017 U.S. junior champion Kaitlyn Nguyen, she missed all of this season due to injury but is training again and hoping to be back next season.

 

[million$momma]

Canada doesn’t have this. We have SC Challenge which is the next step for those who qualify from Sections (we do not have regionals, anyone can register and compete at Sections.)

In Ontario the Sectional system has changed. You now have to qualify for Sectionals by competing in the sectional series events held in the summer/early fall. For singles, top 60 Pre-novice and Novice skaters in the province advance to Sectionals, top 40 Junior skaters. Top 16 out of Sectionals advance to Challenge.

 

[mag]

In Ontario the Sectional system has changed. You now have to qualify for Sectionals by competing in the sectional series events held in the summer/early fall. For singles, top 60 Pre-novice and Novice skaters in the province advance to Sectionals, top 40 Junior skaters. Top 16 out of Sectionals advance to Challenge.

Right, I had forgotten that the Ontario Sections were combined into one big section. Ontario population wise is more like the big Sections in the US. I like that it is a series of competitions rather than a single event in each region.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm not happy about young skaters training enough hard content to compete with it without limits like Orser is putting on Gogolev -- and that isn't a proven approach yet -- whether they are pushed by their parents and/or coaches or not.

When they do land the hard content, with proper technique, good run out, including between jumps in combination, proportional height and distance, ie, the same things I'm looking for in a 26-year-old or even the 18-year-old to whom they're being compared, I have to respect what they're doing.

 

[Tinami Amori]

The 8 ladies who will be making their respective debuts in Senior at Nationals are:

Alysa Liu, 13

I don't know the rules, so asking if 13 is allowed age for Seniors at Nationals? If yes, then great, if one can do it, then why worry about "age".

 

[gkelly]

There are no age limits for novice or higher competition levels within US domestic competitions. Eligibility to compete at regionals/sectionals/Nationals at those levels is strictly by tests passed.

And for ladies especially, the skill level it takes to qualify for sectionals let along Nationals is far far above what it takes to pass the tests. So skaters choose to take the freestyle tests only when they're choosing to move up in competition level.

 

[vesperholly]

I don't know the rules, so asking if 13 is allowed age for Seniors at Nationals? If yes, then great, if one can do it, then why worry about "age".

Age not a factor at Nationals, but it's good information because it will affect their ability to get international assignments.

 

[Willin]

@gkelly I'm really split on the freestyle tests. I think it's great for USFS participation to make the tests achievable and passable to a greater variety of skaters (because the vast majority of skaters can't get all their triples or a 3-3) - not just those who are on an international competition track. There's a huge gap between test content and what a skater actually needs to be competitive. Having a separate test track/Open competition accounts for this difference at competitions, however, think there needs to be some test track that accounts for the gap.
From observing current and past top skaters moving through the ranks the test seems to be a complete afterthought because it's so easy for them to pass. I don't think it should be that way. I think it should be used as a development tool for these potential future stars.
Maybe they should create a separate set of measures that aren't necessary to pass the test but will create a pattern for young ladies skaters to know what they need to be on track for the top echelons of US skating. (eg. "The skater should have all doubles but the axel when taking the Juvenile FS test") I think it will help keep skaters and parents realistic about what's needed to be competitive at this level.

At the men's levels I've found it less a problem than for the ladies.

 

[vesperholly]

@gkelly I'm really split on the freestyle tests. I think it's great for USFS participation to make the tests achievable and passable to a greater variety of skaters (because the vast majority of skaters can't get all their triples or a 3-3) - not just those who are on an international competition track. There's a huge gap between test content and what a skater actually needs to be competitive. Having a separate test track/Open competition accounts for this difference at competitions, however, think there needs to be some test track that accounts for the gap.

There is a "test track" competition setup, now called Excel. http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/Excel Free Skate Requirements Final.pdf

I could not disagree more about the tests, but that's OT for this thread.

 

[gkelly]

If USFS really wanted to weed out noncompetitive skaters at the regional level, or to make more meaningful hoops for would-be competitive skaters to jump through, the current freestyle tests could remain as is as a measure of "graduating" from the freestyle testing track and then there could be a separate more difficult test required to enter regionals. E.g., a short program in which the skater needed to execute all the required SP elements, maybe either in a program performance or with 1 or 2 reskated elements allowed. Especially at junior and senior level. For novices and intermediates, even if they only have the minimum skills to pass the tests, those would also meet the minimum skills to skate a legal intermediate or novice SP -- though not to be competitive at those levels.

Didn't Canada do something like this a number of years ago? What are Canadian testing procedures like now?

I don't think there is or ever has been any move to do this within USFS.

Requiring a minimum technical score in addition to sectionals placement in order to qualify for US Nationals will be one step in that direction.

It might be possible to allow skaters to test up to senior freestyle and earn their gold medals whenever they like even if they want to continue competing at juvenile or intermediate levels (if age eligible for those levels). Or to skip standard freestyle tests entirely if they want to focus on competition. In order to move up, they would need to achieve some other measure of a competitive skill level, such as a clean SP and/or minimum score.

A move to weed out skaters who have always competed at regionals every year since juvenile, just because they have grown up and tested up to levels that require double axels and triples but they have never quite mastered those jumps, or lost them after growth spurts or injuries, would likely lead to more skaters quitting the sport by mid-teens.

It remains to be seen whether the Excel competition track series will prove more attractive than the Test Track competition track it replaces to skaters who are aiming just to pass tests as soon as they're able, or skaters aiming to excel at difficulty levels that were more comparable to the average freestyle skills at those levels during figures era (but without the attendant figures skills).

 

[Willin]

@vesperholly I didn't realize they changed the name, but yes, I do know it exists - I as well as several of my friends competed in it back in the day.

I wouldn't mind setting up another thread about the tests, since I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

If USFS really wanted to weed out noncompetitive skaters at the regional level, or to make more meaningful hoops for would-be competitive skaters to jump through, the current freestyle tests could remain as is as a measure of "graduating" from the freestyle testing track and then there could be a separate more difficult test required to enter regionals. E.g., a short program in which the skater needed to execute all the required SP elements, maybe either in a program performance or with 1 or 2 reskated elements allowed. Especially at junior and senior level. For novices and intermediates, even if they only have the minimum skills to pass the tests, those would also meet the minimum skills to skate a legal intermediate or novice SP -- though not to be competitive at those levels.

Didn't Canada do something like this a number of years ago? What are Canadian testing procedures like now?

I don't think there is or ever has been any move to do this within USFS.

Requiring a minimum technical score in addition to sectionals placement in order to qualify for US Nationals will be one step in that direction.

It might be possible to allow skaters to test up to senior freestyle and earn their gold medals whenever they like even if they want to continue competing at juvenile or intermediate levels (if age eligible for those levels). Or to skip standard freestyle tests entirely if they want to focus on competition. In order to move up, they would need to achieve some other measure of a competitive skill level, such as a clean SP and/or minimum score.

A move to weed out skaters who have always competed at regionals every year since juvenile, just because they have grown up and tested up to levels that require double axels and triples but they have never quite mastered those jumps, or lost them after growth spurts or injuries, would likely lead to more skaters quitting the sport by mid-teens.

It remains to be seen whether the Excel competition track series will prove more attractive than the Test Track competition track it replaces to skaters who are aiming just to pass tests as soon as they're able, or skaters aiming to excel at difficulty levels that were more comparable to the average freestyle skills at those levels during figures era (but without the attendant figures skills).

This is exactly what I'm proposing with the test idea. I think it's perfectly fine to have skaters compete at those levels if they pass the tests, and I think it's fine to have the testing requirements lower than what is needed to be competitive. I just think that having the freestyle testing structure how it is doesn't help the elite skaters that are competitive, and shouldn't there be a way to have a testing structure that does benefit them?

For instance, ice dancers have the standard dance tests they can pass and that are perfectly passable for most dancers, but for those wanting to compete at a high level there's also the international dance tests to learn and work through. Maybe we need an "international freestyle" level of tests or an "international test track" that will better prepare interested athletes for potential international or national competitiveness.

 

[Debbie S]

Ice dancers are not required to pass the int'l dances to compete at the elite level. Most don't, at least while they are still competing, b/c they just don't have the time in addition to all of the training they have to do to be competitive.

Skaters now have the option to submit a comp FS protocol in lieu of taking a test. There is a minimum TES for each level and some other requirements for passing. That's what my club's competitive skaters did this year. Skaters who aren't competing, for whatever reason, and want to pass the tests for achievement's sake still have the option to take the freestyle test at a test session. The rule change is designed to avoid the situation where competitive skaters would have to water down their programs to take the test and add an extra endeavor to their competitive season.

Any skater looking to compete, and their coach, knows what it takes to be competitive at each level. Skaters looking to compete internationally know what the Russian juniors, and others, are doing. They will push the envelope and practice 3-3s, 3As and quads as soon as they are ready, regardless of what test they have to pass. And with the new testing option, testing in and of itself will be even less of a factor in their practice and training.

 

[gkelly]

If it's not intended as a gatekeeper to keep skaters out of regionals, then, like the International dance tests, these tests would be optional.

So some skaters would choose to take extra tests, and others would choose to keep their competitive development separate from their testing.

Skaters do now have more options for which elements to include in their test programs, so that they can use the competition versions of their programs and not have to water them down for tests. Many skaters do water them down at least somewhat, to make sure that they personally are consistent with the elements in their test programs and can execute what they need to on test day. But they can now use the test day as another opportunity to put the full competitive version of their programs in front of judges and challenge themselves to avoid multiple errors.

(And also now they don't even need to skate a freestyle test at a test session. They can submit protocols from an IJS nonqualifying competition. Which means that if there is a specific requirement on a test that they struggle with, in this method they could make up for it by earning extra points in base value and GOE on other elements.)

 

[Sylvia]

I wouldn't mind setting up another thread about the tests, since I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

Yes please.

ETA:

This thread has information about the upcoming changes to the U.S. qualifying system starting in 2019-20 and the link to USFS' 2017-18 Combined Report of Action document: 2018 USFS Governing Council meeting & board initiatives (proposed changes to the current U.S. Nationals qualifying pipeline & more)

 

[vesperholly]

I just think that having the freestyle testing structure how it is doesn't help the elite skaters that are competitive, and shouldn't there be a way to have a testing structure that does benefit them?

Because tests aren't for elite skaters, tests are for the rest of us.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Thank you for the info @Debbie S!

 

[concorde]

@DimaToe. It depends on the level.
At the lower levels, it is much harder to qualify for Nationals if you are from Easterns rather than Pacifics. I think around Novice, it is pretty balanced. By Junior/ Senior, Pacifics/ Midwest are the hard ones. I think that is because the big training centers are in Colorado Springs and California.

 

[concorde]

I thought USFSA was looking at changing the qualifications process to address skaters who were finishing 5th or lower in one sectional, but outscoring qualifiers from another section.

I have not heard that one.

I know that starting next year, there will be a revised qualifying pipeline. As part of that revamp, there was a proposal that Seniors would need to obtain minimum scores to skate at Nationals even if they finished in the top 4 at Sectionals. I think I heard that the minimum scores proposal passed am not positive.

 

[Coco]

@concorde Thanks! That is what I had heard, I just was temporarily confused.

 

[concorde]

@concorde Thanks! That is what I had heard, I just was temporarily confused.

After I wrote that, I had a thought. If a would be National skater does not have the minimum score, would the fill-up rule still apply provided that the skater(s) from the other Sections have the minimum score?

 

[million$momma]

Canada's Gold Freeskate test is what is required for competition in Novice and up. Any decent Juvenile skater can easily pass this test. There are minimum scores to compete at Challenge though which keeps the 'shouldn't be skating at that level' skaters from competing at a National event. Apparently there are changes to the test track coming next year though. I'm not sure what those changes are though.

 

[layman]

Alysa Liu's PC Sectional LP:
https://youtu.be/QnLp1zSwhqE

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Alysa Liu's PC Sectional LP:
https://youtu.be/QnLp1zSwhqE

That was impressive. Not only the jaw-dropping technical content but the solid musical understanding, too.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Alysa Liu's PC Sectional LP:
https://youtu.be/QnLp1zSwhqE

That is a whopper of a program. There's nothing she cannot do. Wow too bad she just can't go out there and compete in seniors now