U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

[aftershocks]

omg that’s so depressing! Imagine, USA’s top lady only good enough to be #3 in Canada! How the nightly have fallen

Ah well, things always change with the passage of time. And let's not forget that Kaetlyn is taking a break and Gabby has shown vulnerabilities (that I expect her to shore up). Regardless, Bradie can compete technically with the best of the best, and she is not as weak presentation-wise as some prefer to dismiss her. That's obviously why SC would froth at the mouth to have Bradie representing them in any position! After Kaetlyn and Gabby, there's a huge talent gap unless by chance Alaine Chartrand can overcome her setbacks, or unless Larkyn Austman can up her tech arsenal, since she doesn't lack in grit and desire.

As far as cyclic changes re competitive results, go back in history and realize that U.S. pairs were the first NA team to land gold at Worlds after European dominance ended in the aftermath of WWII. Canada then followed in U.S. pairs' footsteps, but ultimately surpassed the U.S. in winning multiple Olympic gold medals and World medals, thanks largely to the legendary Barbara Wagner & Robert Paul. And this was before Belousova/Protopopov showed everyone how to skate two as one, and heralded in an era of Russian dominance in pairs that has slowed slightly but not abated.

Another thing to remember is that U.S. ladies' current recordbook medal dominance at Worlds and Olympics will still take awhile to catch up with, and even longer to surpass. This is true, even with U.S. ladies having been off the Worlds podium for 9 consecutive years (plus the past two years), and off the Olympics podium for the past 3 cycles (beginning in 2010).

 

[berthesghost]

you are bleak today

I’d image a more positive spin would be to compare it with dance, how the US started off in the mix, then lost lots of ground to European dominance, then came back strong and are currently amount the top.

Comparing it to pairs, who right up until SLC were still in the medal mix before Thelma and Louising it over a cliff, is too depressing a future to even contemplate for US ladies. US pairs: talk about digging yourself a hole that will take huge effort to climb out of!

 

[aftershocks]

you are bleak today

I’d image a more positive spin would be to compare it with dance, how the US started off in the mix, then lost lots of ground to European dominance, then came back strong and are currently amount the top.

Comparing it to pairs, who right up until SLC were still in the medal mix before Thelma and Louising it over a cliff, is too depressing a future to even contemplate for US ladies. US pairs: talk about digging yourself a hole that will take huge effort to climb out of!

Eh, you must not actually enjoy watching pairs that much, regardless of a country's medal cache. I'm a pairs fangirl regardless. And that's why I brought up U.S. pairs' changes of fortune. The fact is most 'what have you done for me lately' fans fail to recognize that historical perspectives are key in any sport. And that's excruciatingly true in figure skating for every discipline.

I disagree with your Thelma & Louising it analogy to characterize U.S. pairs fortunes, but sure it def has a nice twang to it and also a horrific existential dilemma kinda urgency. But lemme think of a better filmic analogy, cuz no U.S. pair in my memory has ever taken the 'over-and-out, there's no hope for the future' approach to competition, despite going on some bumpy thrill rides. Hmmm.... Give me a moment...

Meanwhile, have you checked out @clairecloutier's recent interview with Deanna & Nate? U.S. pairs will continue battling and never give up. None of them give two fcuks about what friggin' naysayers in the rest of the world think of them. Coming back from illness and injury, and building up recently-formed partnerships takes time. I personally don't care how things ultimately pan out over the course of the season placement and scoring-wise. I just know I'm going to enjoy watching U.S. pairs go to battle, while keeping fingers crossed they all stay healthy. Fcuk the political scoring and rep gift-giving that goes on. Regardless of what happens for U.S. pairs, the entire pairs discipline is the bomb, literally.

Ice dance discipline ain't shabby either. And historic U.S. ice dance reflectioins are always delightfully welcome!

We are in the wrong thread for this discussion, btw. I've cross-posted in U.S. pairs thread.

 

[mag]

Bradie can compete technically with the best of the best, and she is not as weak presentation-wise as some prefer to dismiss her. That's obviously why SC would froth at the mouth to have Bradie representing them in any position!

I agree that Bradie is “not as weak” as some make out, but she is still not what I would call an artistic skater nor does she have a commanding presence on the ice. Now if we are comparing her to the second rung Canadian Ladies, she is ahead of Chartrand technically and as a competitor but I would give Chartrand a very slight edge on the artistic side. Bradie is light years ahead Austman both technically and PCS wise. Austman has the services of a much better choreographer but she does the same programs year after year and always looks like she is doing as she is told without any understanding or feeling. (And don’t get me started on her SS and landing positions.) Bradie, i think, could handle much more sophisticated choreography and it remains to be seen what that would bring out in her.

ETA: I do think Bradie is one to watch this season. Last season I think it took all her energy just to get through the season. She had a massive learning curve to work through. Now with the touring experience and another off season under her belt I think we will see her come out of the gate swinging.

 

[RoseRed]

I agree that Bradie is “not as weak” as some make out, but she is still not what I would call an artistic skater nor does she have a commanding presence on the ice. Now if we are comparing her to the second rung Canadian Ladies, she is ahead of Chartrand technically and as a competitor but I would give Chartrand a very slight edge on the artistic side. Bradie is light years ahead Austman both technically and PCS wise. Austman has the services of a much better choreographer but she does the same programs year after year and always looks like she is doing as she is told without any understanding or feeling. (And don’t get me started on her SS and landing positions.) Bradie, i think, could handle much more sophisticated choreography and it remains to be seen what that would bring out in her.

ETA: I do think Bradie is one to watch this season. Last season I think it took all her energy just to get through the season. She had a massive learning curve to work through. Now with the touring experience and another off season under her belt I think we will see her come out of the gate swinging.

Larkyn works with Mark Pillay. I would think that he's someone who would be available to Bradie, if she was interested.

 

[vesperholly]

Well, no one really believed Kaetlyn Osmond could strike back after her 15-16 season were she didn't even make the world team. However, next season she won the silver medal at worlds. If Chen does work on her technical issues and proves her consistency throughout the challenger and grand prix series she might get a chance. Even with a much more flawed program at the olympics she got a higher PCS than Tennell.

They didn't? Because Osmond won the SP at Canadians and missed the world team by .12 points, not 20.

 

[aftershocks]

I agree that Bradie is “not as weak” as some make out, but she is still not what I would call an artistic skater nor does she have a commanding presence on the ice. Now if we are comparing her to the second rung Canadian Ladies, she is ahead of Chartrand technically and as a competitor but I would give Chartrand a very slight edge on the artistic side. Bradie is light years ahead Austman both technically and PCS wise. Austman has the services of a much better choreographer but she does the same programs year after year and always looks like she is doing as she is told without any understanding or feeling. (And don’t get me started on her SS and landing positions.) Bradie, i think, could handle much more sophisticated choreography and it remains to be seen what that would bring out in her.

ETA: I do think Bradie is one to watch this season. Last season I think it took all her energy just to get through the season. She had a massive learning curve to work through. Now with the touring experience and another off season under her belt I think we will see her come out of the gate swinging.

There's a tendency for whatever reason to dismiss Bradie outright in terms of presentation, whether or not that was your specific aim, which it apparently wasn't I certainly agree that Bradie has things to work on in terms of presentation and developing an authentic profile on the ice. There are not many skaters who can be characterized as above average artistically. Bradie needs to work on relaxing her arm movements, as do many skaters, because less is more effective. But the possibility for overall character growth and improving her presentation and interpretation skills is definitely there. I love Bradie's calm presence of mind in interviews, as well as her sticking to her guns on keeping her Disney fp because she enjoyed skating to it. There was actually some good choreo in there that was expressive to the music and to the Cinderella theme of racing against the chime of midnight. I appreciate Eurosport's Mark Hanretty's commentary during Bradie's performance at SA last year.

Toward the end of the Olympic season, Bradie surely had a learning curve with debuts at both Worlds and Olympics, and winning the team bronze in Pyeongchang. It was all a very heady and exhausting experience surely. After the missteps and learning process in the singles events at the Olympics, Bradie had the grit and presence of mind to come back very strong at Worlds, regardless of judges' stinginess due to rep politics and to her World stage newbie status. In the early part of last season, having come back strong from injury, Bradie obviously was feeling great in her training and she was confidently focusing on SA, while most fans unacquainted with her career to any great degree (including me) expected technically competent but middling results. Of course, she achieved better than that combining technical consistency with confident exuberance.

As far as Alaine Chartrand being ahead of Bradie on PCS, that's very subjective. I don't see Alaine as having any edge in that aspect frankly. It depends on their music, choreo and packaging. IMO, at the moment they would be about even in terms of presentation, with Bradie having the overall competitive advantage unless Alaine is at all able to come back swinging aggressively for the fences in repairing her rep and loss of momentum technically. I don't know a lot about Austman other than noting she has a striking look on the ice, and she exhibits strong desire despite lacking technically competitive weapons.

 

[VGThuy]

I'm rooting for Bradie because I like the way Bradie presents herself in interviews. Her being so matter-of-fact and "whatever" about the publicity side is really appealing to me for some reason.

 

[Dobre]

As far as Karen is concerned, she hasn't changed. She wasn't expected to make the World team two years ago or to make the Olympic team last year. (It takes real work to not be a favorite when you are the reigning champion, but there you go). She wasn't a favorite to finish top 5 last year. Finished 11th at the Olympics.

I've never thought of her this way before, but I guess I could say she's actually rather a female counterpoint to Denis Ten. (FYI, I'm a very big fan of Denis). Comes out of juniors with JGP medals but without any major international ones. Moves up to success very young. Goes through some rough times & growth-related/injury/equipment issues. Far exceeds everyone's initial expectations at his/her first Worlds. Has a hard time living up to the follow-up expectations. Tons of talent. Inconsistent. Capable of continued growth. Getting dismissed by fans when she is still younger than athletes being held up as passing her by.

Nope. Not counting her out at all. Or the international judges. Think she is the kind of athlete that will get the marks when she earns them. Not the kind that will get them for being a solid competitor that can build her scores, but the kind that will get them because she has the wow-factor and the presentation goods. When she puts out the great performance, which is just . . . unpredictable.

The kind of athlete that is very, very good at spoiling skating fans' predictions.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Bradie is what we have in USA and I am thrilled.

First USA chick in years where I dont have to look way from the screen when she jumps. Her carrots are well managed, and she isn't a nervous nelly. Ill take her on my team 1000%.

She doesn't double out or 2 foot.

Her artistry needs improving, true, but aside from Ashley what USA woman's doesn't????????? They all do.

 

[kwanfan1818]

unless you’re USA from 1980-2006

You mean over three Olympic cycles ago, going into the fourth, when there were still figures for the first decade of that period, and IJS was pretty nominal, even if in effect for the last two championships, and judges were still responsible for calling their own underrotation and flutzes?

QUOTE="lola10, post: 5378340, member: 49083"]Well, no one really believed Kaetlyn Osmond could strike back after her 15-16 season were she didn't even make the world team[/QUOTE]
Osmond was coming off a serious injury, and she didn't have to reengineer her jumping technique.

The only question about Osmond coming back was whether she could overcome the injuries.

 

[mag]

As far as Alaine Chartrand being ahead of Bradie on PCS, that's very subjective. I don't see Alaine as having any edge in that aspect frankly. It depends on their music, choreo and packaging.

I can agree with this. Alaine has been around a lot longer and has had some really good programs (as well as some terrible ones!) so that is really the advantage I see. Once Bradie has the same experience she may well end up ahead. This is the US Ladies thread so I will leave my speculation about Alaine by saying only it will be interesting to see what she does this year with her new coach.

 

[mag]

Larkyn works with Mark Pillay. I would think that he's someone who would be available to Bradie, if she was interested.

I think Mark Pillay would be great for Bradie! Some of his best work, IMHO, has been for some local skaters who have long slim limbs. He seems to really understand how to get them to move in a very visually pleasing way.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Tennell maintains better glide than Chartrand. You have to be able to skate through those great programs, and I think a lot of Chartrand's programs have been aspirational.

 

[berthesghost]

You mean over three Olympic cycles ago, going into the fourth, when there were still figures for the first decade of that period, and IJS was pretty nominal, even if in effect for the last two championships, and judges were still responsible for calling their own underrotation and flutzes?

yes, that 1980 to 2006, not the other 1980 to 2006

But what exactly are you trying to say here, because I think japan and Russia would both be a bit surprised to hear its impossible to get 3 ladies in the top 10 or *gasp* two on the podium at the same event under NJS

 

[kwanfan1818]

But what exactly are you trying to say here, because I think japan and Russia would both be a bit surprised to hear its impossible to get 3 ladies in the top 10 or *gasp* two on the podium at the same event under NJS

It's not impossible, but each one of them is a triple threat against the other, which was not the case for any other member from 1980-2006.

 

[berthesghost]

You mean like that unspoken rule where it was understood that Kwan was USA #1 in the pecking order hence why Tara, Sarah or Sasha never beat her at worlds or Olys?

 

[miav9]

I'm so excited for Starr to make her GP debut! Also happy to see that Gracie is returning - she's been favoriting tweets about her return on Twitter which is great to see

 

[aftershocks]

I can agree with this. Alaine has been around a lot longer and has had some really good programs (as well as some terrible ones!) so that is really the advantage I see.

Fair enough I suppose if you're referring to an 'experience' advantage. Still that's negligible and minimal now that Bradie has experienced Olympics and Worlds in her breakout season. Moreover, head-to-head at this point I don't necessarily see Alaine having an advantage over Bradie or any of her other competitors unless and until she's able to rebuild her confidence. As the saying goes, 'the proof is in the pudding.'

 

[Vagabond]

As the saying goes, 'the proof is in the pudding.'

That is a weak, nonsensical corruption of the correct saying, which is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

 

[aftershocks]

Ah well, thanks for your eagle-eye smarts and appropriately quick admonishment dear @Vagabond. There's always lots of misusage and corruption of all kinds of words and sayings, which is no excuse for my faux pas. I guess it pays to doublecheck. Now that you mention it, there was something that seemed off about my, as it turns out, misphrasing... Language is a living thing that's always undergoing change, often heedless of corrupt influences. But do let's strive to be proper as much as humanly possible.

As far as tasty pudding, Kozy Shack's rice pudding is light and yummy! And I repeat, the proof of the new season will be in the pudding, tasty or not. We will have to wait awhile for the eatin' alas.

 

[kwanfan1818]

You mean like that unspoken rule where it was understood that Kwan was USA #1 in the pecking order hence why Tara, Sarah or Sasha never beat her at worlds or Olys?

That's a non-sequitor.

It means that when the US had a shot at a podium sweep, which happened once at Worlds between 1980 and 2006, there was no other country that also had a shot at a podium sweep, in any order.

 

[berthesghost]

Exactly!

2007 onward we now have two countries japan and Russia clogging up the top tier podium blocking the way USA used to for decades, so it’s not only not such a unicorn but it definitely makes it harder for someone like Bradie to move up.

I don’t know why I started with 1980 actually, other than I was thinking of the LP Olys and all 3 us ladies in the final warm up. The more figures got decreased in value the better us ladies did, but really, especially in free skating, they were clogging up the top since 52. Idk about before that, maybe one could argue Austria was dominant, but there were so few competitors.

 

[mag]

As far as tasty pudding, Kozy Shack's rice pudding is light and yummy!

And for a while it was the official pudding of Skate Canada.

 

[clairecloutier]

A new article from International Figure Skating magazine reviews Team USA's performance during the 2017-18 season and discusses USFSA's strategies to help forward U.S. figure skating. I'm just putting this in ladies right now because U.S. ladies is discussed in detail. In ladies/singles, the strategy is to basically focus on youth, try and identify good prospects early and get them competing internationally. Also mentioned are the recent decisions to cancel Nationals below the junior level and replace it with a training camp, plus the decision to hold a pre-Junior Worlds camp at which the Junior Worlds team will be selected.

 

[Frida80]

A new article from International Figure Skating magazine reviews Team USA's performance during the 2017-18 season and discusses USFSA's strategies to help forward U.S. figure skating. I'm just putting this in ladies right now because U.S. ladies is discussed in detail. In ladies/singles, the strategy is to basically focus on youth, try and identify good prospects early and get them competing internationally. Also mentioned are the recent decisions to cancel Nationals below the junior level and replace it with a training camp, plus the decision to hold a pre-Junior Worlds camp at which the Junior Worlds team will be selected.

All discussions should start with underrotations. It’s a serious problem that many super talented US skaters have struggled with. We have talent, it’s about getting them to land jumps consistently and rotate them. Alysa has potential, but she underrotates and pre rotates jumps. She’ll be in for a rude awakening when she goes against Russian and Japanese juniors next year.

 

[Dobre]

Alysa has potential, but she underrotates and pre rotates jumps. She’ll be in for a rude awakening when she goes against Russian and Japanese juniors next year.

I think she already knows it's an issue. It's what dropped her off the novice podium at Nationals two years ago, and she had greatly improved there last season. She also had UR calls at the Asian Open last year so I doubt she has any awakening to do. Just keep working.

 

[Sylvia]

I think she already knows it's an issue. It's what dropped her off the novice podium at Nationals two years ago, and she had greatly improved there last season. She also had UR calls at the Asian Open last year so I doubt she has any awakening to do. Just keep working.

Right. Alysa's second international was this past February at Challenge Cup in The Hague (~6 months after the Asian Open) and she had fewer UR calls there. This is what I posted in the previous U.S. Ladies thread:

2018 Junior champ Alysa LIU, 12, won the silver medal in Advanced Novice Ladies with a total score of 129.78.
She won the SP (2A, 3F, 3Lz<+2T) and was 2nd in the FS (2A, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2T, 3Lo<, 3Lz, 3F) to the winner, Japan's Novice A champion who scored 134.77 total (note: Japan sent all 3 of their Novice A medalists to this comp. so this was a competitive field for Alysa).

 

[kwanfan1818]

Lynn Rutherford tweeted:

.@mirai_nagasu skated a dramatic program to music from Wicked in the #IceDreams show. She said she hasn't had 4 days off since Olympics so simply could not prepare for Champs Camp and the Grand Prix, but has not ruled out competing this season.​

 

[euterpe]

As far as Alaine Chartrand being ahead of Bradie on PCS, that's very subjective. I don't see Alaine as having any edge in that aspect frankly. It depends on their music, choreo and packaging. IMO, at the moment they would be about even in terms of presentation, with Bradie having the overall competitive advantage unless Alaine is at all able to come back swinging aggressively for the fences in repairing her rep and loss of momentum technically. I don't know a lot about Austman other than noting she has a striking look on the ice, and she exhibits strong desire despite lacking technically competitive weapons.

If you compare ACTUAL PCS scores from last season, Chartrand lags far behind Bradie on PCS, and it's because Alaine can neither rotate nor land her jumps with any kind of consistency.

Compare the PCS scores from Alaine's best performance (4CC) with the PCS scores from Bradie's worst (Olympics):

Alaine's PCS at 4CC: 28.58 SP, 57.67 FS
score: 59.86+112.55 = 172.41
Bradie's PCS at Olys: 29.51 SP, 62.93 FS
score: 64.01+128.34 = 192.35