U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

[berthesghost]

These are people who choose their coaches and if things don’t work out as expected, they all know where the door is.
Chris, Tim, Dennis, Mirai, Michelle... is there anyone who actually improved in competition results after they left Frank? Just curious.

 

[attyfan]

Mirai's competition results seem similar (at least to me) to the results she had under Frank. Michelle is harder to judge --- at first, her results also seemed similar, with nat titles, no OGM, and winning worlds in alternate years (first 2001 then 2003) -- but in her case there are so many other issues (the then-new-IJS and her-body-breaking-down) that it is hard to pin point.

 

[berthesghost]

^thats probably true of all of them. The tsl interview he talked about all of dennis’ foot problems, boot issues, injuries etc. Also Tim’s physical issues, Chris’ addiction problems, etc. They all had better competition results with frank but he also had them when they were at their peak.

Mirai was 4th at Olys, 7th at worlds with frank, 10th, 10th and 10th with Tom.

Gracie: if she makes a successful comeback, and does better than before, that will be story of the century!

 

[wickedwitch]

I think much of what is reported from both sides has to be taken with a grain of salt. The reality is that some coaches are fabulous with some students and simply don’t work with others. The relationships can also change over time especially when skaters are only teens when the start and eventually grow to be adults. It is always nice to see someone land somewhere that fits. Mirai seems to have found that with Tom; hopefully Gracie can fine the same.

This.

Sometimes, when a coach/skater pairing doesn't work out, it's not because the skater did anything wrong or because the coach did anything wrong. It's just not a good match. And that's okay. Skaters shouldn't have to worry about leaving a coach they don't click with without seeming problematic.

 

[attyfan]

...

Mirai was 4th at Olys, 7th at worlds with frank, 10th, 10th and 10th with Tom.
...

When I said that I thought the results were similar, I was thinking of Mirai's results at Nats (making Oly teams with a silver), and, some credit for her skate at the TE at this Olys under Tom as equivalent to the better placements under Frank.

 

[Coco]

Base value under Frank (wow, I'm procrastinating!)

2010 results have 1 additional element worth up to 3.4 points, so this is not a true head to head comparison.

2010 OG
SP - 31.8
FS - 57.33

2018 OG
TFS - 64.57
SP - 36.41
FS - 50.63

 

[LarrySK8]

Gracie's activities ... hmmm ... quits. Gets a job in AZ. Tweets job is 12 hour days. Lasts at said job a few weeks. Attends a seminar/clinic. Meets VR. Moves to train in PA without all her double jumps. Along the way has tweet vomit syndrome.

 

[Willin]

@LarrySK8 What's your point? We have no idea what her agreement with the rink was like - short term, long term, guest coach, seasonal coach, etc. And no one says she doesn't have her double jumps, just that they're rusty. I'm sure she can get them (and her triples) back.

^thats probably true of all of them. The tsl interview he talked about all of dennis’ foot problems, boot issues, injuries etc. Also Tim’s physical issues, Chris’ addiction problems, etc. They all had better competition results with frank but he also had them when they were at their peak.

Mirai was 4th at Olys, 7th at worlds with frank, 10th, 10th and 10th with Tom.

Gracie: if she makes a successful comeback, and does better than before, that will be story of the century!

Well, I also think part of it is that she wasn't getting called for URs then, but she certainly is now...

I also think a big issue is the level of competition. As with US Pairs, it's not necessarily that she's gotten worse, it's that the rest of the world has gotten a lot better. Although with Mirai I'd venture a guess that if she improved her PCS she'd be more competitive even with the URs, but that's not the Tom Z way. For reference, if you compare scores:
-2010 Olympics: 190.15 (4th)
-2010 Worlds: 175.48 (7th)
-2016 Worlds: 186.65 (10th)
-2018 Olympics: 186.54 (10th)
-2018 Worlds: 187.52 (10th)

So her scores haven't changed at all, they're pretty consistent with where they were under Frank. If you discount the extra element at the 2010 Olympics, that score's right in line with what she's getting right now. We should also consider her competitors.
Points needed for a podium finish (3rd Place) at the competitions (in parentheses is where they would've landed at 2018 Worlds):
-2010 Olympics: 202.64 (6th)
-2010 Worlds: 178.62 (12th)
-2016 Worlds: 213.69 (2nd)
-2018 Olympics: 231.02 (1st)
-2018 Worlds: 210.08 (---)

See the jump in scores needed to be competitive? So while Mirai's scores are about even, her competitors are not.

 

[bardtoob]

Mirai's competition results seem similar (at least to me) to the results she had under Frank. Michelle is harder to judge --- at first, her results also seemed similar, with nat titles, no OGM, and winning worlds in alternate years (first 2001 then 2003) -- but in her case there are so many other issues (the then-new-IJS and her-body-breaking-down) that it is hard to pin point.

Mirai was 4th at Olys, 7th at worlds with frank, 10th, 10th and 10th with Tom

When I said that I thought the results were similar, I was thinking of Mirai's results at Nats (making Oly teams with a silver), and, some credit for her skate at the TE at this Olys under Tom as equivalent to the better placements under Frank.

Base value under Frank (wow, I'm procrastinating!)

2010 results have 1 additional element worth up to 3.4 points, so this is not a true head to head comparison.

2010 OG
SP - 31.8
FS - 57.33

2018 OG
TFS - 64.57
SP - 36.41
FS - 50.63

@LarrySK8 What's your point? We have no idea what her agreement with the rink was like - short term, long term, guest coach, seasonal coach, etc. And no one says she doesn't have her double jumps, just that they're rusty. I'm sure she can get them (and her triples) back.


Well, I also think part of it is that she wasn't getting called for URs then, but she certainly is now...

I also think a big issue is the level of competition. As with US Pairs, it's not necessarily that she's gotten worse, it's that the rest of the world has gotten a lot better. Although with Mirai I'd venture a guess that if she improved her PCS she'd be more competitive even with the URs, but that's not the Tom Z way. For reference, if you compare scores:
-2010 Olympics: 190.15 (4th)
-2010 Worlds: 175.48 (7th)
-2016 Worlds: 186.65 (10th)
-2018 Olympics: 186.54 (10th)
-2018 Worlds: 187.52 (10th)

So her scores haven't changed at all, they're pretty consistent with where they were under Frank. If you discount the extra element at the 2010 Olympics, that score's right in line with what she's getting right now. We should also consider her competitors.
Points needed for a podium finish (3rd Place) at the competitions (in parentheses is where they would've landed at 2018 Worlds):
-2010 Olympics: 202.64 (6th)
-2010 Worlds: 178.62 (12th)
-2016 Worlds: 213.69 (2nd)
-2018 Olympics: 231.02 (1st)
-2018 Worlds: 210.08 (---)

See the jump in scores needed to be competitive? So while Mirai's scores are about even, her competitors are not.

I think you all fail to take into account that Russia began producing 4-5 world class female skaters per Olympic cycle since 2010, which means there are always three or more of these skaters at Worlds and the Olympics.

 

[Frida80]

@LarrySK8 What's your point? We have no idea what her agreement with the rink was like - short term, long term, guest coach, seasonal coach, etc. And no one says she doesn't have her double jumps, just that they're rusty. I'm sure she can get them (and her triples) back.


Well, I also think part of it is that she wasn't getting called for URs then, but she certainly is now...

I also think a big issue is the level of competition. As with US Pairs, it's not necessarily that she's gotten worse, it's that the rest of the world has gotten a lot better. Although with Mirai I'd venture a guess that if she improved her PCS she'd be more competitive even with the URs, but that's not the Tom Z way. For reference, if you compare scores:
-2010 Olympics: 190.15 (4th)
-2010 Worlds: 175.48 (7th)
-2016 Worlds: 186.65 (10th)
-2018 Olympics: 186.54 (10th)
-2018 Worlds: 187.52 (10th)

So her scores haven't changed at all, they're pretty consistent with where they were under Frank. If you discount the extra element at the 2010 Olympics, that score's right in line with what she's getting right now. We should also consider her competitors.
Points needed for a podium finish (3rd Place) at the competitions (in parentheses is where they would've landed at 2018 Worlds):
-2010 Olympics: 202.64 (6th)
-2010 Worlds: 178.62 (12th)
-2016 Worlds: 213.69 (2nd)
-2018 Olympics: 231.02 (1st)
-2018 Worlds: 210.08 (---)

See the jump in scores needed to be competitive? So while Mirai's scores are about even, her competitors are not.

You’re comparing apples to oranges. What you aren’t taking into account is the trend of her scores with Frank dropped after the first year, as did her results and with Tom Z they gradually rose. Also her scores at the Olympics and worlds were her best performance in the Long and Short until recently. So it looks like she hasn't improved when it’s clear she has.

And she was definately Getting underrotation calls under Frank. It’s why she was the 2010 US silver medalist instead of gold.

The fact was, Frank wasn’t good for Mirai. Her performance abilities were somewhat better, but her performances went down each year with him. Went she left him, she was seventh at US nationals. This was with no illness, hitting the board, or boot issues. Sometimes a training environment can hurt a skater while others can help.

The difference between Mirai’s national silver FS couldn’t be more different. She had three under rotations in 2010. In 2018, just one, and also had a 3F+3T and a 3A. She’s improved a great deal under Tom Z. It’s just the ladies around her have gotten a lot better.

 

[Willin]

@bardtoob Exactly my argument. Mirai hasn't gotten worse, as the poster I was replying to argued; she's gotten better but the field has as well. Back in 2010 the Russian ladies were in a major slump, and that's certainly not the case now.

@Frida80 I was arguing that exact thing. I have no opinion on whether or not Frank was bad for her - I've heard things that make me dislike Frank's methods, but obviously he did get her to that 4th place at the Olympics. I believe your misconception about my post comes from the fact that it was a reply that only singled out those 5 competitions I included.

I do have one issue with your post, and that's that her URs have improved. They haven't. Sure, at Nationals the caller was more lenient, but all season she's been getting a lot of URs called. For me to consider URs improved for any skater, the decrease in URs would have to be a consistent thing throughout a season across many callers as opposed to one or two programs.

 

[Frida80]

@bardtoob Exactly my argument. Mirai hasn't gotten worse, as the poster I was replying to argued; she's gotten better but the field has as well. Back in 2010 the Russian ladies were in a major slump, and that's certainly not the case now.

@Frida80 I was arguing that exact thing. I have no opinion on whether or not Frank was bad for her - I've heard things that make me dislike Frank's methods, but obviously he did get her to that 4th place at the Olympics. I believe your misconception about my post comes from the fact that it was a reply that only singled out those 5 competitions I included.

I do have one issue with your post, and that's that her URs have improved. They haven't. Sure, at Nationals the caller was more lenient, but all season she's been getting a lot of URs called. For me to consider URs improved for any skater, the decrease in URs would have to be a consistent thing throughout a season across many callers as opposed to one or two programs.

Actually, she’s gotten far fewer unders over the course of the season. Yes, her competition at the USIC has lots of unders. However, her Long programs at CoR, NHK, and the Olympics had a lot less under rotations than she normally gets. Compare her 2016 results at SC and NHK to her results at CoR and NHK and you can see fewer underrotations and also higher scores as well. In fact, these are her highest scores ever during a GP season. Also, she got no calls at Japan Open either.

As for her short program, I think that had more to do with a bad layout than anything. In the CoR, she thought she landed her 3A. What happened after is 100% normal. Many skaters who land a jump for the first time fall apart after landing it. She had way less problems with her FS and landing her 3F+3T.

I think that Worlds was a combination of mental fatigue and a case of Shin Amano. She’s not the only one that fell prey to mental fatigue after the Olympics. Look at the Last group of men at worlds!

Her combos are way more consistently rotated than in the past. Her Lutz edge is better. And she her 3S is way more consistent. I was very impressed with her jump improvement this year. Not to mention in practice her jumps are far more consistent. I don’t think it was a case of one or two lenient callers. Five different technical callers think her jumps are cleaner than in the past. I think she made a marked improvement this year, but got Shin Amano’ed at the end of the season.

 

[Wyliefan]

Gets a job in AZ. Tweets job is 12 hour days.

Where are you getting that? I don't see one word about her job on her Twitter.

 

[Yazmeen]

Where are you getting that? I don't see one word about her job on her Twitter.

That makes two of us.

 

[LarrySK8]

Where are you getting that? I don't see one word about her job on her Twitter.

That makes two of us.

see her Feb 20 tweets

 

[Willin]

@LarrySK8 Nowhere does she say that this was a permanent job or coaching position. For all we know it could've been a two-month coaching residency at a rink or something she was only intending to do for a couple months while she decided what to do next. Heck, most coaching jobs are pretty transient. We have a lot of 30+ year coaches at our rink, but we also get some that come for a couple months to a year and leave for other rinks or to move on to other things. Particularly with younger coaches it's practically expected - people in their early 20s are liable to go to college, take frequent vacations, get married/pregnant, move around the country, etc. etc.

All those February 20th tweets say is that she coached for 8 hours and had a red eye flight followed by a 12-hour coaching day. How does that translate into "this is a full time job I'm contracted to stay at"?

 

[nimi]

Ah, I see. Gracie mentioned a 12 hour coaching day, and somehow that got twisted as "tweets job is 12 hour days" etc.

@LarrySK8 Nowhere does she say that this was a permanent job or coaching position. (...)
All those February 20th tweets say is that she coached for 8 hours and had a red eye flight followed by a 12-hour coaching day. How does that translate into "this is a full time job I'm contracted to stay at"?

So yeah I wondered about the same thing... (With selective memory and/or some bad faith, perhaps?)


ETA: To shift gears... Amber Glenn retweeted this and it made me think, has she ever tried a +3Lo combo in competition? (I haven't really watched her that much, can't remember.)

 

[kwanfan1818]

One of the things that Carroll emphasizes is control and pacing going into jumps, and if it means slowing skaters down to accomplish it, that is his process. He did it with Gold as he had done before with Kostner, who, no matter how much the Italian podcast guys like to excoriate him, did have more control over her speed after she left him.

It was clearly a shotgun wedding after Gold left her coach, and how many coaching changes made in haste work out that well? However, they were the USFS's wet dream couple on paper, and that's not easy on either side on a day-to-day basis.

 

[Yazmeen]

It was clearly a shotgun wedding after Gold left her coach, and how many coaching changes made in haste work out that well? However, they were the USFS's wet dream couple on paper, and that's not easy on either side on a day-to-day basis.

THIS. I don't care what anyone says, never mind Evan, IMO Frank badly wanted a LADY OGM. And Gracie was the picture perfect ice princess for that in the minds of USFS. Except that wasn't the real Gracie, just a cardboard image projected on her and more than a few ladies skaters before her.

 

[Sylvia]

14-year-old Hanna Harrell, 4th in Junior Ladies at Nationals, is the lone Team USA representative assigned to Egna Spring Trophy, April 5-8, near Bolzano, Italy (site of the 7th and last JGP this past fall where she also made her JGP debut). This will be her 3rd international assignment of the season.

Link to the competition thread in the Kiss & Cry section: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...april-5-8-egna-neumarkt-bolzano-italy.103674/

"Zhang (w/d 3/23)" is listed on USFS' International Assignments page along with Harrell for Egna - Emily Zhang was 5th in Junior at Nationals (2nd in SP, 8th in FS) and this would have been her Team USA debut. Hopefully she will get another opportunity to make her junior international debut (next season).

Harrell will skate #12 of 26 junior ladies in the SP on Friday (2nd in the 3rd group of 5).

 

[bardtoob]

THIS. I don't care what anyone says, never mind Evan, IMO Frank badly wanted a LADY OGM. And Gracie was the picture perfect ice princess for that in the minds of USFS. Except that wasn't the real Gracie, just a cardboard image projected on her and more than a few ladies skaters before her.

Yes, Frank did want to train a ladies OGMist.

However, I don't think who Gracie is or wants to be is known to anybody.

 

[Bellanca]

Meanwhile, Frank is sitting at home wondering why his ears are on fire and ready to fall completely off his head.

 

[Stephanie]

"Zhang (w/d 3/23)" is listed on USFS' International Assignments page along with Harrell for Egna - Emily Zhang was 5th in Junior at Nationals (2nd in SP, 8th in FS) and this would have been her Team USA debut. Hopefully she will get another opportunity to make her junior international debut (next season).

Harrell will skate #12 of 26 junior ladies in the SP on Friday (2nd in the 3rd group of 5).

I'm hoping the same for novice champ Beverly Zhu. I'm surprised she didn't get a post-nationals international.

 

[Frida80]

I'm hoping the same for novice champ Beverly Zhu. I'm surprised she didn't get a post-nationals international.

That is odd. Novice champs normally go an international competition by April.

Well, she’ll still be high on the list of JGP candidates in the fall. Looking forward to summer competitions!

 

[vesperholly]

That is odd. Novice champs normally go an international competition by April.

Well, she’ll still be high on the list of JGP candidates in the fall. Looking forward to summer competitions!

Beverly is a high school sophomore and international novices can't be older than 15, so I'm guessing she's already aged out of novice.

 

[bardtoob]

Meanwhile, Frank is sitting at home wondering why his ears are on fire and ready to fall completely off his head.

I think Frank is probably an expert as handling this by now as it is implicit with making figure skating a career.

 

[Frida80]

Beverly is a high school sophomore and international novices can't be older than 15, so I'm guessing she's already aged out of novice.

Normally that means they ask her go as a junior. I think both Hailey and Emily Chan went as juniors after they won.

 

[mag]

Normally that means they ask her go as a junior. I think both Hailey and Emily Chan went as juniors after they won.

Perhaps she has a conflict with a school commitment or her junior programs aren’t ready?

 

[Frida80]

Perhaps she has a conflict with a school commitment or her junior programs aren’t ready?

She would've been told back at nationals so she could get ready. Kids normally make extended versions of their current novice program.

...

I hope everything is ok.

 

[Debbie S]

Let's not make assumptions about Zhu (or anyone) and why she may or may not have received a spring assignment. USFS may have opted not to send out Novices this spring for multiple reasons, including budget/finances. If Zhu monitors well over the summer, she'll likely get consideration for a JGP.