U.S. Ladies [#22]: No More Carrots!

[DimaToe]

Some thoughts:

I think Wagner had us so spoiled for such a long time that most expected her to be guns blazing from her 1st GP. Had her nationals LaLaLand performance happened at her 1st GP like it would most years she would have been given the benefit of the doubt that Karen Chen was given at nationals.

Maybe it is time to accept a "non artistic" skater as the leader for U.S. ladies. If Tennell can be a contender with just her TES so be it. We're not under 6.0 anyone so let the Zayaks and Hardings be themselves (although wouldn't we be lucky to have such talents show up in the U.S these days? please hold on Alyssa Liu )

I hope Karen gets her #bootproblems in check, too much potential there for it all to go down the Gracie Gold route

I ready for the but I am disappointed that Nagasu's olympic cycle of hard work has ended up with her placing all weight on a team medal and her aiming for TV fame.

I really hope that this upcoming olympic cycle has our leading ladies (whoever they may be) finding their own competitive advantage under IJS, and that people don't loose their sh!t after one good competition and let them develop at their own pace.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In a way, I secretly think that Wagner stuck it to the USFSA by turning down worlds. Given how proceedings in Milan turned out, there was a huge chance she could have helped them retain three spots for next year.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Karen Chen's training was all over the store in the 2017/18 season. Faulty boots and switching between programs really disrupted any kind of routine she had. I am surprised she made the Olympic team, and salvaged what she could.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Some thoughts:

Maybe it is time to accept a "non artistic" skater as the leader for U.S. ladies. If Tennell can be a contender with just her TES so be it. We're not under 6.0 anyone so let the Zayaks and Hardings be themselves (although wouldn't we be lucky to have such talents show up in the U.S these days? please hold on Alyssa Liu )

Watch one of Elaine's free skates some time. It is so ironic that Tennell skates to Cinderella and it irks her detractors. Yet Zayak was always unfairly compared to Rosalynn Sumners, for not being more of a princess.

Jealous old Evy Scotfold may have claimed Zayak was a one - trick pony with a triple toe loop. But she would have made an incredible IJS skater, with connecting moves, difficult spins on outside edges, and transitions in and out of every element.

 

[Willin]

In a way, I secretly think that Wagner stuck it to the USFSA by turning down worlds. Given how proceedings in Milan turned out, there was a huge chance she could have helped them retain three spots for next year.

Given Shin Amano being on the tech panel, I'd say it wasn't a huge chance, but rather a small one.

 

[olympic]

Watch one of Elaine's free skates some time. It is so ironic that Tennell skates to Cinderella and it irks her detractors. Yet Zayak was always been unfairly compared to Rosalynn Sumners, for not being more of a princess.

Jealous old Evy Scotfold may have claimed Zayak was a one - trick pony with a triple toe loop. But she would have made an incredible IJS skater, with connecting moves, difficult spins on outside edges, and transitions in and out of every element.

Elaine Zayak was IMO one of the most underrated skaters in the US. She was more than the 3T, having as you said a lot of great edges, connecting moves and transitions. She was Jr. World Champion in 1979, a 3-time world medalist and come-from-behind champion in 1982. She saved the USFSA's bacon at 1984 Worlds when Roz retired, Chin was injured and the USFSA forgot to fill in the substitutes on the entry form. Remember that? She skated to a bronze and kept the US on the podium (Something that doesn't seem to be getting done these days )

 

[Coco]

Yes, that medal let the US send two skaters, Chin and Debi Thomas. Debi got valuable experience that no doubt played a role in her world title next year

 

[AYS]

Elaine Zayak was IMO one of the most underrated skaters in the US. She was more than the 3T, having as you said a lot of great edges, connecting moves and transitions. She was Jr. World Champion in 1979, a 3-time world medalist and come-from-behind champion in 1982. She saved the USFSA's bacon at 1984 Worlds when Roz retired, Chin was injured and the USFSA forgot to fill in the substitutes on the entry form. Remember that? She skated to a bronze and kept the US on the podium (Something that doesn't seem to be getting done these days )

She also looked pretty darn good when she came back to eligible skating a decade after retirement, at the pre-Lillehammer nationals.

 

[berthesghost]

She may not have been a baby-ballerina but Elaine was one of a kind who brought an excitement and dynamism to skating, and won several world medals for usfs, all of which makes the original comparison to Bradie that brought her name into this thread all the more

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Elaine Zayak was IMO one of the most underrated skaters in the US. She was more than the 3T, having as you said a lot of great edges, connecting moves and transitions. She was Jr. World Champion in 1979, a 3-time world medalist and come-from-behind champion in 1982. She saved the USFSA's bacon at 1984 Worlds when Roz retired, Chin was injured and the USFSA forgot to fill in the substitutes on the entry form. Remember that? She skated to a bronze and kept the US on the podium (Something that doesn't seem to be getting done these days )

We can thank Claire Ferguson for that **** up. Katherine Adams was 1st alternate, and it was probably her best and only shot of making the US Team. There is an extended YouTube clip about it somewhere, which I should dig up.

 

[Sylvia]

There is an extended YouTube clip about it somewhere, which I should dig up.

If you find it, maybe you could start a separate thread in the Trash Can for discussing the U.S. ladies of the past? I think it would be a popular thread for the off season.

Choreographer news so far:

Rohene Ward recently choreographed Karen Chen's SP: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg4hCgGBkgV/?taken-by=roheneward
As well as Vivian Le's SP and FS: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg4GigwBVIQ/?taken-by=roheneward

 

[Maximillian]

Elaine Zayak was IMO one of the most underrated skaters in the US. She was more than the 3T, having as you said a lot of great edges, connecting moves and transitions. She was Jr. World Champion in 1979, a 3-time world medalist and come-from-behind champion in 1982. She saved the USFSA's bacon at 1984 Worlds when Roz retired, Chin was injured and the USFSA forgot to fill in the substitutes on the entry form. Remember that? She skated to a bronze and kept the US on the podium (Something that doesn't seem to be getting done these days )

This! Zayak was doing a 2a-3r combo in 1981! Plus a 3t-3t sequence! Add to that, the terrific in betweens, the 3 sal ANd the 3 loop. She was royally jacked in both the '82-83 and '83-84 seasons and the USFS put all its backing behind Sumners who really wasn't capable of keeping up with Witt technically (or psychologically) if Witt wasn't too far behind in figures.

 

[Maximillian]

We can thank Claire Ferguson for that **** up. Katherine Adams was 1st alternate, and it was probably her best and only shot of making the US Team. There is an extended YouTube clip about it somewhere, which I should dig up.

Actually, no she wasn't, Jill Frost was the first alternate. Adams was first alternate in '85.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Actually, no she wasn't, Jill Frost was the first alternate. Adams was first alternate in '85.

Given that Jill placed 4th at US Nationals in 1984, I would have thought that as well. I'll need to dig up the YouTube clip which details Adams' exclusion.

I am guessing that with her bronze medal, Caryn Kadavy was first alternate in 1985.

 

[Sylvia]

14-year-old Hanna Harrell, 4th in Junior Ladies at Nationals, is the lone Team USA representative assigned to Egna Spring Trophy, April 5-8, near Bolzano, Italy (site of the 7th and last JGP this past fall where she also made her JGP debut). This will be her 3rd international assignment of the season.

Link to the competition thread in the Kiss & Cry section: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...april-5-8-egna-neumarkt-bolzano-italy.103674/

 

[Maximillian]

Given that Jill placed 4th at US Nationals in 1984, I would have thought that as well. I'll need to dig up the YouTube clip which details Adams' exclusion.

I am guessing that with her bronze medal, Caryn Kadavy was first alternate in 1985.

Oh, yeah! I always forget that Kadavy didn't go to Worlds in '85.

 

[Clay]

We can thank Claire Ferguson for that **** up. Katherine Adams was 1st alternate, and it was probably her best and only shot of making the US Team. There is an extended YouTube clip about it somewhere, which I should dig up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68WT1WXSuKs

 

[Maximillian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68WT1WXSuKs

Frost was first alternate but was sick so then Adams was supposed to go...

 

[nimi]

Don't know what to make of this piece of (alleged) second-hand info about Gracie... but I guess I'm going to drop this (alleged) news here anyway... https://twitter.com/Jacobskatee/status/979754540726652928

So today I was informed by my friends in Aston that Gracie Gold is permanently training with Vincent Restencourt, Ting Cuis coach, in Aston PA. She is training for a comeback!!!

It might take a while till we see her compete again tho bc she lost her triples and struggling with the harder doubles

 

[olympic]

Actually, no she wasn't, Jill Frost was the first alternate. Adams was first alternate in '85.

It is sad that Jill Frost missed her one shot at Worlds in 1984 due to the screw up. IIRC, she was a pleasure to watch and was a skater with nice lines. Miss Debi Thomas was 6th at 84 Nats. Who was 5th??? Would Debi have conceivably reached Worlds?

 

[Wyliefan]

It would be really nice to have Gracie back. I hope she's feeling healthy emotionally and physically.

 

[Stormy]

Don't know what to make of this piece of (alleged) second-hand info about Gracie... but I guess I'm going to drop this (alleged) news here anyway... https://twitter.com/Jacobskatee/status/979754540726652928

Didn't Gracie just accept a coaching job in Arizona? It really seemed like she was done competing.

 

[Sylvia]

Didn't Gracie just accept a coaching job in Arizona?

Yes, their press release was dated February 9th. Perhaps it was a short-term contract?

It really seemed like she was done competing.

Skaters (human beings) change their minds all the time. Gracie hasn't said anything publicly about her plans yet but, IF she does indeed want to compete again, I'm sure she'll let the world know on her own time.

 

[Bellanca]

Re: Karen: It's a shame that her season had to end on such a sour note. Hopefully, next season will be more productive and less dramatic.

In the future, I sincerely hope that Karen does not choose to openly discuss or share any boot issues, if (heaven forbid) she has any. Better to reboot (no pun intended) and start anew... clean slate, with the goal of representing the U.S.A. as either lady number 1 or 2. Good luck to Karen!

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Frost was first alternate but was sick so then Adams was supposed to go...

I am happy to admit to sort of being wrong. But wow, Claire Ferguson really dropped the ball here. What a lost opportunity for Kathryn Adams.

I remember seeing clips of Adams skate, and for some reason, she reminded me of a young Kristi Yamaguchi. (No surprises to find out her coach was Christi Ness.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpsU8WhAupI

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It is sad that Jill Frost missed her one shot at Worlds in 1984 due to the screw up. IIRC, she was a pleasure to watch and was a skater with nice lines. Miss Debi Thomas was 6th at 84 Nats. Who was 5th??? Would Debi have conceivably reached Worlds?

Kathryn Adams was 5th (and second alternate after Frost). Frost was sick, so Adams in theory, should have joined Zayak in Ottawa to compete at the 1984 World Championships.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

This! Zayak was doing a 2a-3r combo in 1981! Plus a 3t-3t sequence! Add to that, the terrific in betweens, the 3 sal ANd the 3 loop. She was royally jacked in both the '82-83 and '83-84 seasons and the USFS put all its backing behind Sumners who really wasn't capable of keeping up with Witt technically (or psychologically) if Witt wasn't too far behind in figures.

It's so bizarre.

The USFSA wanted Elaine to be more like Sumners. Yet at the end of the day, their leading princess, Sumners, really should have been more like Zayak.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, Sumners was the reigning World Champion by Sarajevo and was one judge away from winning the gold there, so it wasn’t a total wasted effort to support her. The USFS should have figured out a way to support both AND make it known by everyone (including Zayak and Sumners) that both were being supported.

Btw, how bad was the rivalry between Zayak and Sumners? I don’t hear much about it but I read online that it was pretty bad at least between the in-sport supporters and fans of the skaters if not between them personally. Everything Zayak is mentioned on the forums throughout the years, it seems there’s some residual resentment about Sumners even 30 years later.

 

[Maximillian]

Well, Sumners was the reigning World Champion by Sarajevo and was one judge away from winning the gold there, so it wasn’t a total wasted effort to support her. The USFS should have figured out a way to support both AND make it known by everyone (including Zayak and Sumners) that both were being supported.

True, but to be fair, both Sumners' SP and FS were judged VERY generously and she shouldn't have been as close to Witt as she was. She received the scoring benefit of being the top U.S. lady.

Btw, how bad was the rivalry between Zayak and Sumners? I don’t hear much about it but I read online that it was pretty bad at least between the in-sport supporters and fans of the skaters if not between them personally. Everything Zayak is mentioned on the forums throughout the years, it seems there’s some residual resentment about Sumners even 30 years later.

It was built up in the media, and both of the skaters tried to downplay it. In both their TSL interviews, Zayak and Sumners acknowledge it, though I think Elaine is being a bit disingenuous in her interview when she says that Roz saw it as more of a rivalry than she did. But I believe both said that their respective 'teams' (basically Sumners' coach, Lorainne Bormann and Zayak's coaches Peter Burrows and Mary Lynn Gelderman) got caught up in it more than they did themselves.

The '84 Winter Games was really the first Olympics I watched seriously and my mom told me beforehand that she was excited to watch the skating because of the rivalry between Zayak and Sumners. I wasn't skating yet, so my mom would have been a total four year fan, but she was very aware of the rivalry going in.

 

[olympic]

Kathryn Adams was 5th (and second alternate after Frost). Frost was sick, so Adams in theory, should have joined Zayak in Ottawa to compete at the 1984 World Championships.

Aww. Frost was ill? That's so sad. Theoretically, a team of 3 Americans in Ottawa '84 would've been Zayak, Adams and Thomas? I would be interested to know what Thomas looked like competitively in '84.

Well, Sumners was the reigning World Champion by Sarajevo and was one judge away from winning the gold there, so it wasn’t a total wasted effort to support her. The USFS should have figured out a way to support both AND make it known by everyone (including Zayak and Sumners) that both were being supported.

Btw, how bad was the rivalry between Zayak and Sumners? I don’t hear much about it but I read online that it was pretty bad at least between the in-sport supporters and fans of the skaters if not between them personally. Everything Zayak is mentioned on the forums throughout the years, it seems there’s some residual resentment about Sumners even 30 years later.

I remember Zayak stating that they had a cordial relationship, that they understood that each one had a job to do: Skate well. That was it. Little drama. I don't recall one talking about the other much in their TSL interviews a couple of years ago.