U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

[coppertop1]

Wow, this thread is getting ridiculously hostile. What did people expect from the women? No one thought they were contenders. Bradie hasn't been to Worlds yet. This was really her debut so ninth is respectable. Chill out.

 

[Frida80]

Wow, this thread is getting ridiculously hostile. What did people expect from the women? No one thought they were contenders. Bradie hasn't been to Worlds yet. This was really her debut so ninth is respectable. Chill out.

The Olympics can bring the best and worst out of people.

 

[FSfan107]

The Olympics can bring the best and worst out of people.

For my part, I apologize.

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

It’s not a coincidence that Kaetlyn, Satoko, and Kaori had errors in the TE and then skated much better in the individual event. They were able to get their nerves out, while leaving their best skate for later. It’s a great strategy that clearly worked.

Given the small sample size we have in 2014 and 2018, there are instances of skaters skating well in both team and individual events, skaters skating poorly in both events, and everything in between.

I don't think there is any correlation, only hindsight and selection bias.

 

[Frida80]

Given the small sample size we have in 2014 and 2018, there are instances of skaters skating well in both team and individual events, skaters skating poorly in both events, and everything in between.

I don't think there is any correlation, only hindsight and selection bias.

I’m not just looking at that. I’ve looked at dozens of club, national, Challenger Series, Junior and Senior GP and ISU competitions over seven years. This pattern is very consistent. A competition with minor errors often yields better results just prior to a high level competition. And the opposite is often true too. If you have a perfect competition with you best results ever, the next competition will be considerably weaker.

It’s why I get so angry at people for expecting someone who just had their best skate to nail it every competition. It just doesn’t happen unless your super consistent. And that’s pretty rare. However, if that person is given space and allowed to fail, eventually those up and downs will start lessen until they gain the confidence to become consistent. But that doesn’t happen overnight.

 

[Frida80]

For my part, I apologize.

Emotions run high. We’ll all be back to normal come April.

 

[Spun Silver]

Bradie had a clean Team SP and the highest result in the individual competition, so I would hardly call Mirai the only one who did something great just because she landed her triple axel. Bradie could have done better, but this was her first Olympics or Worlds, unlike the others (and beat them). I don't think any of these ladies are lazy BTW. Not sure why you are raging.

Three answers to this.

1. Nothing Bradie did is remotely comparable to Mirai's doubly historic accomplishment in the team event of landing the beautiful 3A as well as completing the first clean 8-triple program by a senior lady anywhere. Anyone who thinks finishing 9th instead of 10th gives Bradie some kind of edge over Mirai is honestly not seeing straight. They both finished badly. They both began well. But only one is going down in the history books.

2. Being at her first Olympics is often an advantage, not a disadvantage, because of youthful strength and ignorance. Lipinski, Baiul, Hughes, Kim, Sotnikova, Zagitova were all at their first Olympics, for heaven's sake. Bradie isn't even that young. So no points for that excuse.

3. I can't speak for @bardtoob but from reading this thread what I *think* she was "raging" about (more like being sarcastic in my reading) is the unfairness of putting most of the blame for US ladies' disappointing IE on the shoulders of the one US lady who had the Olympic SOHL and made history and, yes, brought home the bacon, ie a medal, with a clutch skate in the TE. Had she skated worse--as she was generally expected to--and Carolina better, the Shibs might not have been able to make up the ground, at least that was my impression while following the event and FSU's PBP experts in real time.

I don't think #bardtoob really means Bradie and Karen are lazy, only using the logic that if 3A, 8-triple Mirai is going to be considered an underachiever, then by golly the other two have to share the same disgrace because there is no significant difference in how they performed in the IE. If anything, it can be argued that those two should have done better because they either didn't skate in the TE at all or when they did, didn't have the kind of technical or medal pressure on them that Mirai did, nor did they have to deal with the time and pressure of the media extravaganza that followed Mirai's achievement. I.e., they could have skated better being under the radar, but they didn't.

I don't necessarily agree with that analysis and I'm not sure @bardtoob does either since ai think she was speaking rhetorically. I'm just trying to point out the logic or illogic at work.

Myself, I don't think Bradie represents a shocking decline in US ladies' skating, she just had an uncharacteristic pair of skates and IMO needs a new coach with a lot of attention to PCS and packaging if she wants to fight for the podium internationally. As for Karen, I'm puzzled. She does seem to be in decline for reasons unknown, but given how great she's been in the past, maybe it's something she'll work through.

I think Mirai's overall performance is getting overshadowed by her disastrous post-IE interview as much as her weaker IE skates. I'm really hoping she can get past them both, remember what she achieved, get a ton of rest, and train for Worlds far from any cameras.

Sorry for the long post. I am having a bit of trouble letting go of the Olympics! It was fun if overwhelming and angsty at the end.

 

[bardtoob]

@Spun Silver I was using rhetoric to emphasize that Bradie and Karen are also responsible for the results.

 

[aftershocks]

TSL has posted a technical ladies Olympic event recap with Doug Haw, along with an artistic ladies Olympic recap with the wonderful Tom Dickson. How does Dave manage to rope these knowledgeable skating insiders? Perhaps they like some of Dave's irreverence and the respite from 'vanilla' status quo coverage. Or more likely, the contacts are being facilitated via Sandra Bezic, who appears to be charmed by Dave and forgiving of his excesses. I do think that Dave needs to be less harsh and more professional, as well as not making it so much about himself.

I posted the links to these recaps in TSL thread in Trash Can.

 

[quiqie]

You realize that in the event Bradie got a 6th rank while Mirai got a 2nd rank. In other words, Bradie did worse than Mirai in the Team Even by a lot.

How pathetic!

Actually, Bradie was 5th in the team SP, behind Medvedeva, Osmond, Kostner and Miyahara. Three of them (Medvedeva, Osmond and Miyahara) did not compete in the team FS, so technically, Nagasu was better than Bradie only in outskating Kostner.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

In dance too, there is one less hurdle to consider as well. Triples.

True. And overhead lifts. And throws.

 

[bardtoob]

Actually, Bradie was 5th in the team SP, behind Medvedeva, Osmond, Kostner and Miyahara. Three of them (Medvedeva, Osmond and Miyahara) did not compete in the team FS, so technically, Nagasu was better than Bradie only in outskating Kostner.

You realize that this makes Bradie look worse, right? ... Dumbass!

Why wasn't Bradie doing better? Isn't she the US National Champion?

(Still a rhetorical device, but Captain Dumbass didn't bother to read the rest of the thread!)

 

[quiqie]

You realize that this makes Bradie look worse, right? ... Dumbass!

Why wasn't Bradie doing better? Isn't she the US National Champion?

(Still a rhetorical device, but Captain Dumbass didn't bother to read the rest of the thread!)

No, I think it makes you look like an idiot who can’t count.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It’s why I get so angry at people for expecting someone who just had their best skate to nail it every competition. It just doesn’t happen unless your super consistent. And that’s pretty rare. However, if that person is given space and allowed to fail, eventually those up and downs will start lessen until they gain the confidence to become consistent. But that doesn’t happen overnight.

Agreed. There is no greater burden than potential.

Perhaps the biggest victim of all was Gracie Gold.

 

[berthesghost]

Wow, this thread is getting ridiculously hostile. What did people expect from the women? No one thought they were contenders. Bradie hasn't been to Worlds yet. This was really her debut so ninth is respectable. Chill out.

So a few people are ranting on a message board, so what? Compared to some sports where the fans freak out and trash a stadium or riot, this seems pretty damn calm and mature.

I also don't get why people keep telling fans to stop being emotional about a sport they love. Like we were all suppose to be detached and uninvolved and not care one way or the other how people did. Oh look, Mirai landed a 3a *yawn* now she's fallen in the LP and dropped out of top 10 *yawn* what's the weather like for tomorrow? That's not being a fan, that's being a channel surfer.

You don't have to work hard to convince me bradie is a middle of the pack, inexperienced skater lucky to crack the top 10, but that is no balm to lessen the burn that she was just yesterday crowned top dog and hyped as a savior even though I could see no evidence of it. Maybe you're comforted to see her be as pedestrian as you expected, but I'm not.

Yes, the fact that US ladies skating continues its downward spiral is beyond our control, but that doesn't mean fans should just shrug and walk away. Belive me, the fact that thousands have already is part of the problem, not the solution IMO.

 

[Sylvia]

So a few people are ranting on a message board, so what? Compared to some sports where the fans freak out and trash a stadium or riot, this seems pretty damn calm and mature.

Maybe you could go rant in the "American Women Used to Dominate in Figure Skating. What Happened?" thread and we can keep this one for current news?

ETA:

I usually enjoy Alice Park's figure skater profiles - here's her piece on Bradie Tennell before the individual competition started: http://time.com/5165739/bradie-tennell-olympic-figure-skating/

 

[ToFarAwayTimes]

Tom Dickson had some advice for Karen and Bradie in TSL interview.

 

[olympic]

Why would anyone want such a miracle when it's clear we shouldn't be sending more than 2 women skaters to Worlds based on the current level of talent? Yet I bet we will hear more hand-wringing from the likes of Phil, Christine, over the 3 spots.

Well, several arguments can be made that the 13 rule is silly and I have made them in different threads. Even if the US is down in the dumps, the US no. 3 is generally talented enough to finish in the penultimate group out of 24 in the final. But, that would require the ISU to change the rules.

For that reason, I personally would want to see 3 American ladies in 2019. I know journalists will wring their hands, but that is what they do.

 

[skatingguy]

Looking at the final standings I think the best that any of the American woman could have hoped for was 7th, and I can make a pretty good argument that the best they should have expected was 10th, so 9th for Bradie was not to bad. They'll get another chance to do better at the World Championships, which is a much more consequential event in figure skating than the Olympics. They weren't going to win a medal in the individual event, particularly the way the top six skated, but Bradie & Mirai helped the US earn a medal in the Team Event so they get to come home with a souvenir, that's about as much as could be expected at this Olympics. In addition, it's unlikely that Wagner would have done any better, and she certainly wasn't going to win a medal.

 

[Carolla5501]

TSL has posted a technical ladies Olympic event recap with Doug Haw, along with an artistic ladies Olympic recap with the wonderful Tom Dickson. How does Dave manage to rope these knowledgeable skating insiders? Perhaps they like some of Dave's irreverence and the respite from 'vanilla' status quo coverage. Or more likely, the contacts are being facilitated via Sandra Bezic, who appears to be charmed by Dave and forgiving of his excesses. I do think that Dave needs to be less harsh and more professional, as well as not making it so much about himself.

I posted the links to these recaps in TSL thread in Trash Can.

If we quit listening and promoting he would go away!

You realize that this makes Bradie look worse, right? ... Dumbass!

Why wasn't Bradie doing better? Isn't she the US National Champion?

(Still a rhetorical device, but Captain Dumbass didn't bother to read the rest of the thread!)

Are you old enough to post without adult supervision? Generally 4th graders should have their parents watch what they say on the internet. (I assume by your brilliant "Dumbass" name calling you are not an adult, if I am wrong and you are then perhaps you should act like one and not an upset 4th grader) Another one for ignore LOL!

 

[NoStefaniaNo]

Just because the placements were close to what we expected, doesn't mean we can't be disappointed there wasn't a single clean skate in the individuals. It leaves a bad perception.

Although, perhaps that is good because it might make officials think differently about how they approach selection and preparation for marquee events like Worlds and Olympics. I don't think we need to accept being in the happy to be there category just yet.

 

[berthesghost]

So many moms on FSU! Telling posters how to feel, what words they can and can not use, which thread they can post what comment in, what expectations we should or should not have had. It’s all so “...and clean your room!”

 

[Maximillian]

It is interesting, though, that just last year we had ladies 4th and 7th and the year before 2nd and 4th...so, I'm not yet ready to ring the death knell for U.S. ladies. The problem is that our top two ladies at the beginning of the quad (Gold and Wagner) had their 'Olympics' in the middle of the quad, with L.A. Worlds. There was so much hype about the medal drought and how close the two of them were to the podium and to each other. I really think that whether it was conscious or not both of them saw LA Worlds as THE event. And while it would be silly to blame Gracie's subsequent issues on her not medalling there, I think it is fair to say that she was deflated and lost motivation afterwards. Similarly, while I don't necessarily think it was a conscious choice, Wagner went into decline after that event. They had both gotten to that point (2nd and 4th in the World) by pushing each other over the previous two (three?) seasons.

With Gracie's departure, Ashley's decline and Polina's injury, this year was always going to be tough. Chen is inconsistent (to the point that it is pathological), and neither Nagasu nor Tennell have the PCS to stay with the top ladies, but I'm not yet convinced that this is the beginning of the end.

 

[bardtoob]

Are you old enough to post without adult supervision? Generally 4th graders should have their parents watch what they say on the internet. (I assume by your brilliant "Dumbass" name calling you are not an adult, if I am wrong and you are then perhaps you should act like one and not an upset 4th grader) Another one for ignore LOL!

Ok, Mom.

 

[bardtoob]

No, I think it makes you look like an idiot who can’t count.

Thank you for the constructive criticism. I corrected my post

 

[barbk]

USFS made the wrong bet. Tough luck. Ashley would at least have been interesting and created attention for the sport while the whole world was watching, like when she was made into a meme four years ago.

If I were Ashley, I wouldn't go to Worlds even if I was asked. You screw me, I screw you. Make USFS forever be the one who made the wrong decision in passing up on her ("if only" - "no one will ever know" - "only US world medalist in this quad"), instead of justifying its decision by placing poorly at Worlds which she most probably will (like Mirai at 4CCs in 2014). It doesn't appear like she has been training much. If US ladies were to lose a spot at this upcoming Worlds anyway, Ashley would be smart to avoid it.

Eh...no reason to believe that Ashley would have not blown it again, just like she did in three successive pre-Olympics National Championships, or just as the queen of underrotations. None of the US women were competitive for a medal at this Olympics even if they'd skated clean. Bradie was never going to get the high PCS scores with her skating. Mirai could have been close - I thought if she went clean in the short that she could have made it to 5th or 4th if she'd had the skate she had in the team event. Karen has never been tremendously consistent.

Ashley could sulk away and refuse Worlds, though I have no reason to believe that she will do so. She has a lot of grit. If she does go, I hope she does well and has the personal satisfaction of finishing the season on a high note. I'd still be surprised if she made the podium in Milan.

 

[Yazmeen]

First of all, in regard to bardtoob, to quote the immortal Charlie Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUEJ05BqLU

Second, found this today on Slate: https://slate.com/culture/2018/02/is-american-olympic-figure-skater-mirai-nagasu-a-jerk.html

Now, before anyone gets their back up, the "Jerk Watch" is done in a firmly tongue-in-cheek manner. However this is worth a read, especially for the points about athletes and press interviews and this: "It is dumb to criticize athletes for saying interesting things in press conferences, even (especially!) when those things do not reflect well on the athletes. Journalists go to press conferences because they want to hear athletes say interesting things, and most of the time the athletes say little of interest or value. When they do deviate from the standard answers, like Nagasu, they get in trouble for not saying something banal. The athletes can’t win! Truly, the members of the mainstream media are the real jerks here."

And that brings me to the one thing in these games that made me want to scream: the massive over-hyping of many of the athletes in hopes of great stories and ratings. I went "uh, oh" the moment I saw Phil the Drama King Hersh's article after the team event saying Mirai was now definitely in the medals mix. Good grief, she landed ONE triple axel in competition - did he even have a clue as to how her previous attempts had gone, and who she'd be facing in the individual event? Even when much more was expected of a competitor (Nathan Chen, who definitely gave off clues prior to the Olympics that all was not well in Quadland), do any of these writers actually pay enough attention to what the athletes have done prior to the Olympics before they put the drama machine in high gear? And then, of course, the athletes are losers for not living up to the writers' expectations. My biggest wish for the next quad is the we get some YOUNGER sports writers who actually study the sport in the manner that Jackie Wong does.

And in regard to the real Olympic sports jerk, read the article about Elizabeth Marian Swaney. Now THAT's someone the sportswriters should go after with their pocket knives.

 

[missing]

First of all, in regard to bardtoob, to quote the immortal Charlie Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUEJ05BqLU

Second, found this today on Slate: https://slate.com/culture/2018/02/is-american-olympic-figure-skater-mirai-nagasu-a-jerk.html

Now, before anyone gets their back up, the "Jerk Watch" is done in a firmly tongue-in-cheek manner. However this is worth a read, especially for the points about athletes and press interviews and this: "It is dumb to criticize athletes for saying interesting things in press conferences, even (especially!) when those things do not reflect well on the athletes. Journalists go to press conferences because they want to hear athletes say interesting things, and most of the time the athletes say little of interest or value. When they do deviate from the standard answers, like Nagasu, they get in trouble for not saying something banal. The athletes can’t win! Truly, the members of the mainstream media are the real jerks here."

And that brings me to the one thing in these games that made me want to scream: the massive over-hyping of many of the athletes in hopes of great stories and ratings. I went "uh, oh" the moment I saw Phil the Drama King Hersh's article after the team event saying Mirai was now definitely in the medals mix. Good grief, she landed ONE triple axel in competition - did he even have a clue as to how her previous attempts had gone, and who she'd be facing in the individual event? Even when much more was expected of a competitor (Nathan Chen, who definitely gave off clues prior to the Olympics that all was not well in Quadland), do any of these writers actually pay enough attention to what the athletes have done prior to the Olympics before they put the drama machine in high gear? And then, of course, the athletes are losers for not living up to the writers' expectations. My biggest wish for the next quad is the we get some YOUNGER sports writers who actually study the sport in the manner that Jackie Wong does.

And in regard to the real Olympic sports jerk, read the article about Elizabeth Marian Swaney. Now THAT's someone the sportswriters should go after with their pocket knives.

If you don't "criticize athletes for saying interesting things in press conferences, even (especially!) when those things do not reflect well on the athletes," then when the heck do you criticize athletes? If I should say, "Well if you think I stank, you should take a look at Skater X who stank even more than I did," I'd expect to be criticized. If I should say, "I know I didn't do so great but it didn't matter to me because really I was thinking about how great it would be to be someplace else," then I should expect some negative reaction, because those kinds of comments do not reflect well on me. The media isn't putting the thoughts or the words into my mouth. I'm the jerk, not the press.

I also am willing to assume reporters that have been covering figure skating for lengthy periods of time actually know that someone like Nathan Chen had "been giving off clues." I can't see why it's the media's fault if Nathan (or anyone else) does badly. Things couldn't have been too bad in Quadland, given the number of quads he was able to land in his free skate. And no one entered the Olympics with more pressure than Hanyu. Once he got to the Olympics, every move he made was subjected to the utmost scrutiny, and yet he still managed to win.

It was hardly only American skaters who came into the Olympics with other people's expectations weighing on them. And those expectations, quite reasonably, were generated by the skaters themselves. Who would have paid attention to Mirai (other than her fans) if she hadn't included a triple axel in her repertoire? Who would have paid attention (other than his fans) to Nathan if he hadn't included so many different quads in his? Who would have paid attention (other than their fans) to the return of retired skaters if they hadn't come back with the extraordinary skill and effort of Virtue and Moir?

I read and watched American coverage, and I had no problem with the fact that American coverage was going to be more focused on American athletes. I'm perfectly happy to assume Canadian coverage focused more on Canadian athletes, Japanese coverage on Japanese athletes, and Nigerian coverage on Nigerian athletes. That's the nature of media and the nature of the Olympics.

What I can't and won't accept is the idea that it's the media's fault if an athlete doesn't do well or that if reporters write things a reader disagrees with, it means the reporters are no good and uninformed. To me, that an insult to the athletes, both those who succeed and those who fail, and to reporters who've devoted years of their lives to writing about a sport that is often treated without respect.

 

[Yazmeen]

What I can't and won't accept is the idea that it's the media's fault if an athlete doesn't do well or that if reporters write things a reader disagrees with, it means the reporters are no good and uninformed. To me, that an insult to the athletes, both those who succeed and those who fail, and to reporters who've devoted years of their lives to writing about a sport that is often treated without respect.

I never said it was the media's fault it an athlete doesn't do well, I'm just tired of them over-hyping athletes and then getting bent out of shape when the athlete doesn't match the over-hype they've written. I had no problem with some of the reporters criticizing Mirai for her tasteless comments - she deserved the criticism, but it started to go overboard. Especially after the athlete apologizes, there's a point where it should be resolved and let go. But when you get a Phil Hersh, who over-hyped her as a medal threat and now is all over her on Twitter for doing "damage control" and is even now going on about how it wasn't just "misogynistic male writers who found her words off-putting," you start to realize that it's become about the reporter, not the athlete and what they said or did. Ever wonder why Jackie Wong is so beloved? He loves skating and makes his reports and comments about the skater and the actual skating, instead of about himself or just his opinions.

 

[Dobre]

To be fair, it's not like posters on FSU haven't hyped any of the U.S. ladies in this very thread throughout the season.

I'm proud of Mirai. I'm proud of her for sticking with the sport four years in the face of so many obstacles. I'm proud of her for reworking her jump technique. I'm proud of her for performing the triple axel, and frankly I think it is underrated in the ladies event and feel that Rika Kihira should be outscoring the Russian junior ladies or at least making them sweat a lot more as they don't have it. I'm proud of Mirai for having that great skate in the team event. And I am grateful to Mirai for taking off so much of the pressure before the Shibs had to skate their FD. I'm sorry that nerves showed up for Mirai in the individual event, but of course, I'm not surprised. Overall, though, I'm so proud of her.

Bradie performed about like I thought she would perform. An up & coming skater, not used to the hype or the pressure of expectations, but with a solid jump base and developing performance skills. The miracle is that she didn't have this performance back at Skate America or U.S. Nationals. She really stepped up under the pressure all season and even on this massive stage for her first international, she proved she had the right to be here.

Karen was Karen. I love her, and I wish she'd kept her new, Slow Dancing LP, and seen what she could make of it. That said, she made the team and I was proud of her for that. I think she has a beautiful artistic gift, and I hope she will continue competing & gathering experience for a long time.

Is the state of the U.S. ladies discipline a good one right now? No, I don't think it is. I think it's a real problem. I think we all know it's a real problem. The U.S. girls are getting crushed in the junior ranks. The Russian & Japanese fields are so much deeper, and the upcoming Korean ladies are ready to contend. I think the U.S. coaches & the younger girls are working on it. And I think there are some aspects of the U.S. senior ladies skating that are just gorgeous. But I also think this is a long-term job. I hope Karen/Bradie/Mariah will look at athletes like Mirai & Ashley as real role models. As athletes who refused to accept limitations and challenged themselves to always become better. And I hope the young ladies coming up will get the tools they need to fight for even more. And to blaze their own trails.