U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

[aftershocks]

South Korean ladies are most definitely on the rise. The Japanese and Russian ladies have dominated the Junior Circuit for the past couple of years, but the South Koreans haven't been far behind. Lim finished 4th at 2017 Junior Worlds, and has won two JGP medals in the past two seasons. Her lowest placement in the JGP has been 4th, so she has done consistently well. Young You had a solid debut season with two top 5 finishes. Lim wasn't as impressive as the top 2, but she's also placed consistently well in the JGP. Baring disaster, South Korea should be in the top 3 countries at Junior Worlds and get the full set of of JGP spots.

All 3 ladies were inspired by Yuna Kim. Maybe it will only be junior success, but I'd personally expect at least one of them to do quite well on the senior level internationally.

Eunsoo Lim has exquisite potential, as I said. She is a delightful skater, and she's someone to watch. If Eunsoo continues to develop, she should definitely be contending for the top in seniors. That is what I said in my previous post. But aside from Lim, and Young You, who else at this point is there coming up in the lower ranks for South Korea? I see Choi and Hanul as being more like So-youn Park, good talent but so far more ensconsed in the second and third tier in seniors unless they make dramatic improvements. As I also said in my previous post, I currently see more talent 'on-the-rise' in seniors among the Japanese ladies. And yes, talent in juniors does not always translate into senior success.

I personally was discussing seniors and the current Olympic results initially, so unless the poster I was originally addressing speaks in more specifics without others trying to explain what she meant by 'on-the-rise,' there's no argument here, just varying viewpoints and semantics.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Disappointing results for our American women at the Olympics. They do not deserve to be crucified,but some of the hand-holding and excuse-making in this thread is systematic of the problems with USA figure skating today.

Mirai was tired? So were the Russians,Osmond,Miyahara,Kostner,and Choi,yet they all placed ahead.

I think Bradie had the only acceptable result,although that Cinderella program was too young even for my conservative taste.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

@olympic There's another thread in the trash can discussing it, but her training methods would definitely not fly in the US. It involves encouraging/ignoring eating disorders, "evaluating" and potentially firing skaters that aren't up to snuff every week, obvious favoritism (her response to Medvedeva vs. Alina), and other questionable things...

That reminds me of a hilarious but politically incorrect sketch from The Tracey Ullman Show. In it, Tracey played a ballerina who replaces the star at the last minute. Her Russian instructor, played by Julie Kavner, said that in order to succeed, she must always remember the three Bs.

Balance, breathing, and bulimia.

 

[Frida80]

It’s hard to say how to improve US ladies, but trust me I think they did a good job considering. Their results could’ve been better, true but all this not picking after the fact overlooks the much more complex problems that existed even before they arrived.

 

[Frida80]

I honestly don’t remember the long, but the short to Tango de Roxanne (music aside) was not crap. It was a fabulous program that just needed a ton of work. Exponentially more sophisticated than what she ended up. Like I said, doing real choreography can be very difficult. Karen took the easy route out. The short she went with was, IMHO, very unsophisticated.

It had several empty spots, flat choreography, and didn’t have a grand moment for her spiral. Her Golden Pond SP is far better.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

What's sad is that Mirai's and Bradie's medals from the Team Event will ultimately go unappreciated.

Imagine if they had given exactly the same performances they did in the individual events.

Then, if the Team Event was actually scheduled after all of the individual competition was completed, how great it would be to see them rebound and close out the Olympics with a group medal for their country.

 

[FSfan107]

By the way, after the emotions have worn off, I went back and looked at the ladies' scores. All things being equal, if Bradie had not fallen in the SP and had rotated / properly landed the 2 jumping passes in the LP, she would've finished somewhere in the 207 - 208 range, just behind Kaori. If Mirai had only stepped out of her 3A in the SP, cleaned up the 3L a tad, then had a team event 3A in her individual LP and a proper 3Z, she would have also been in this same ballpark.

That still ranks 7th and 8th. I think it would take a miracle for the US to retain 3 spots for 2019

Why would anyone want such a miracle when it's clear we shouldn't be sending more than 2 women skaters to Worlds based on the current level of talent? Yet I bet we will hear more hand-wringing from the likes of Phil, Christine, over the 3 spots.

 

[Dr.Siouxs]

Balance, breathing, and bulimia.

And Bunions.

 

[FSfan107]

What's sad is that Mirai's and Bradie's medals from the Team Event will ultimately go unappreciated.

Imagine if they had given exactly the same performances they did in the individual events.

Then, if the Team Event was actually scheduled after all of the individual competition was completed, how great it would be to see them rebound and close out the Olympics with a group medal for their country.

I don't think the Team Event should have had any affect on the performances for the women. They had sufficient rest time between events. I do agree the Team Event should be last though. Never quite understood why they schedule it first. Funny, the Pairs had the least amount of rest and seemed to do fine.

 

[Wyliefan]

What's sad is that Mirai's and Bradie's medals from the Team Event will ultimately go unappreciated.

I'm not so sure about that. Mirai landing that triple axel was one of the first great moments of this year's Games. I think that will be remembered even after her subpar individual events are forgotten.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm not so sure about that. Mirai landing that triple axel was one of the first great moments of this year's Games. I think that will be remembered even after her subpar individual events are forgotten.

I hope so. Christine Brennan and Phil Hersh behaved like total c**** after the US women didn't skate up to expectations.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I don't think the Team Event should have had any affect on the performances for the women. They had sufficient rest time between events. I do agree the Team Event should be last though. Never quite understood why they schedule it first. Funny, the Pairs had the least amount of rest and seemed to do fine.

Keep in mind that skaters are limited to two 45 minute sessions a day. Which is a massive difference between the 4 - 5 hours they spend training each day when they are at home.

The Olympics are a shit storm, with media commitments, and other, constant distractions.

Back in the day, Doug Leigh said of Brian Orser's Calgary experience, that his student ran out of mental space with every second person screaming, "Bring home the gold".

I can't even begin to imagine what that kind of pressure would be like.

 

[Former FS FAN]

Sorry, but those programs were crap. People complained about them from the very beginning. She was right to drop them. Some times choreographer get it wrong.

Didn't Daleman go back to last years LP because the new one wasn't working for her ? Did Ashley change hers in late 2017 ? Sometimes the choreographers try to fit the square peg in the round hole.

 

[aftershocks]

Back in the day, Doug Leigh said of Brian Orser, that his student ran out of mental space with every second person screaming, "Bring home the gold".

Maybe the difficulty of his own Olympics experiences is part of the key to what makes Brian a good coach (along with his organizational skills) and other coaching talents that can't be taught ...

 

[Frida80]

I don't think the Team Event should have had any affect on the performances for the women. They had sufficient rest time between events. I do agree the Team Event should be last though. Never quite understood why they schedule it first. Funny, the Pairs had the least amount of rest and seemed to do fine.

But it does. It’s all about peaking and the amount of mental energy a skater puts in an event. Mirai clearly peaked at the TE. Other competitors like Kaetlyn and Satoko didn’t put as much emphasis on it and made errors in the TE. There’s a lot of factors at play here, but when Julia competed in Sochi, she too peaked at the TE and couldn’t recover by the individual event. I think if they were staying outside of the Olympic village and in Japan like the Russians, it would’ve helped them refocus and reenergize.

But it’s way too hard to come down from a skate like Mirai’s and duplicate it a week later. In all cases like this, you should always expect the skater to have a weaker skate that immediately follow. I call it winners head.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Maybe the difficulty of his own Olympics experiences is part of the key to what makes Brian a good coach (along with his organizational skills) and other coaching talents that can't be taught ...

True. Brian and Tracy can speak from their own competition experience. It sounds like they run a no - nonsense training environment, too.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

South Korean ladies are most definitely on the rise. The Japanese and Russian ladies have dominated the Junior Circuit for the past couple of years, but the South Koreans haven't been far behind. Lim finished 4th at 2017 Junior Worlds, and has won two JGP medals in the past two seasons. Her lowest placement in the JGP has been 4th, so she has done consistently well. Young You had a solid debut season with two top 5 finishes. Lim wasn't as impressive as the top 2, but she's also placed consistently well in the JGP. Baring disaster, South Korea should be in the top 3 countries at Junior Worlds and get the full set of of JGP spots.

All 3 ladies were inspired by Yuna Kim. Maybe it will only be junior success, but I'd personally expect at least one of them to do quite well on the senior level internationally.

Agreed. The Junior Grand Prix Series was so exciting this season. It was a joy to watch and follow.

 

[FSfan107]

But it does. It’s all about peaking and the amount of mental energy a skater puts in an event. Mirai clearly peaked at the TE. Other competitors like Kaetlyn and Satoko didn’t put as much emphasis on it and made errors in the TE. There’s a lot of factors at play here, but when Julia competed in Sochi, she too peaked at the TE and couldn’t recover by the individual event. I think if they were staying outside of the Olympic village and in Japan like the Russians, it would’ve helped them refocus and reenergize.

But it’s way too hard to come down from a skate like Mirai’s and duplicate it a week later. In all cases like this, you should always expect the skater to have a weaker skate that immediately follow. I call it winners head.

I just don't completely buy it. I mean Kaetlyn made an error in the TE, that doesn't mean she didn't put focus on it. It's like we're saying a skater can only skate clean once, and I just don't believe that. If you're trained enough and don't play into distractions, you should be able to do both. If they were only there to focus on the team event, why even go out and compete in the individual? LOL. A lot of excuse-making is going on.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Didn't Daleman go back to last years LP because the new one wasn't working for her ? Did Ashley change hers in late 2017 ? Sometimes the choreographers try to fit the square peg in the round hole.

A reliable source said that when Ashley showed La La Land at Champs Camp, that TPTB from US Skating hated it. Which is potentially the reason why she went back to Moulin Rouge for a third season.

Maybe, that she returned to a tinkered version of La La Land for US Nationals, may have factored in why she didn't do as well as she expected, and could explain where her post - competition disappointment came from, too.

 

[Frida80]

I just don't completely buy it. I mean Kaetlyn made an error in the TE, that doesn't mean she didn't put focus on it. It's like we're saying a skater can only skate clean once, and I just don't believe that. If you're trained enough and don't play into distractions, you should be able to do both. If they were only there to focus on the team event, why even go out and compete in the individual? LOL. A lot of excuse-making is going on.

If you follow skating closely enough, you’ll find that it’s true that most skaters can only skate clean rarely per season. Most skaters have one or two clean programs in them. The rest will have minor errors. It’s rare to have a very consistent skater that doesn’t make mistakes. The Eteri ladies are the exception.

I wish it were that easy. But it’s not easy to do at all. That’s what makes this a sport.

The team event is very new, and federations are still learning how to handle it. China avoided sending their potential medalist entirely. But I doubt that Bradie or Mirai intended to only focus on the TE. They and their team just didn’t understand how much of an impact it would have on them. It’s something Team USA will have to prepare for.

 

[Choupette]

Maybe the difficulty of his own Olympics experiences is part of the key to what makes Brian a good coach (along with his organizational skills) and other coaching talents that can't be taught ...

There was some "Memories from the 1988 Olympics" (wasn't called exactly that but you get the idea) and one of them was about the Orser vs. Boitano battle. Orser said precisely that about his Olympic experience.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I just don't completely buy it. I mean Kaetlyn made an error in the TE, that doesn't mean she didn't put focus on it. It's like we're saying a skater can only skate clean once, and I just don't believe that. If you're trained enough and don't play into distractions, you should be able to do both. If they were only there to focus on the team event, why even go out and compete in the individual? LOL. A lot of excuse-making is going on.

Actually, Kurt Browning put it best in his autobiography when he was asked if winning once made winning again any easier. He said, that when everything is going well, it can. When it isn't, you just don't know if you can reproduce the same performance again, no matter how good you are.

Skating at the technical level it is now, is rife with so many interior and exterior variables. No one day is the same, no matter how much preparation you put in. With triple triple combinations and triple triple sequences the norm, there are simply no guarantees.

Given that Mirai skated so well in the team event, would have put even greater pressure on her to reproduce what could very well be a once in a lifetime skate.

It isn't fair to compare Kaetlyn and Mirai. We can't assume to know how Nagasu processes what she does.

 

[Former FS FAN]

But it does. It’s all about peaking and the amount of mental energy a skater puts in an event. Mirai clearly peaked at the TE. Other competitors like Kaetlyn and Satoko didn’t put as much emphasis on it and made errors in the TE. There’s a lot of factors at play here, but when Julia competed in Sochi, she too peaked at the TE and couldn’t recover by the individual event. I think if they were staying outside of the Olympic village and in Japan like the Russians, it would’ve helped them refocus and reenergize.

when Julia competed in Sochi, she too peaked at the TE and couldn’t recover by the individual event.

Unfortunately that team LP by Julia was her career peak. She never skated at that high level again.

 

[RoseRed]

I don't think the Team Event should have had any affect on the performances for the women. They had sufficient rest time between events. I do agree the Team Event should be last though. Never quite understood why they schedule it first. Funny, the Pairs had the least amount of rest and seemed to do fine.

I think it was Brooke Castile on IceTalk who said that although she thought the pairs were in the hardest situation in terms of physical recovery, she actually felt that they had it easiest mentally. I forget her exact reasoning, but she thought it would be a lot easier mentally to just go straight into the individual than to have to wait for a while.

That being said, it's very individual. I know Kaetlyn Osmond said it was helpful for her having the gap, because she left the village to train, which helped her see the individual as a brand new competition. That made it easier for her to move past the less than ideal TE SP.

 

[FSfan107]

If you follow skating closely enough, you’ll find that it’s true that most skaters can only skate clean rarely per season. Most skaters have one or two clean programs in them. The rest will have minor errors. It’s rare to have a very consistent skater that doesn’t make mistakes. The Eteri ladies are the exception.

I wish it were that easy. But it’s not easy to do at all. That’s what makes this a sport.

The team event is very new, and federations are still learning how to handle it. China avoided sending their potential medalist entirely. But I doubt that Bradie or Mirai intended to only focus on the TE. They and their team just didn’t understand how much of an impact it would have on them. It’s something Team USA will have to prepare for.

Of course I didn't mean "perfect" programs, but relatively clean. It may have had an affect, but I'm not convinced it (the team event) is solely to blame for these performances. For Bradie it just seemed like nerves finally hit her a bit, but she at least pulled it back together.

 

[RoseRed]

Actually, Kurt Browning put it best in his autobiography when he was asked if winning once made winning again any easier. He said, that when everything is going well, it can. When it isn't, you just don't know if you can reproduce the same performance again, no matter how good you are.

Skating at the technical level it is now, is rife with so many interior and exterior variables. No one day is the same, no matter how much preparation you put in. With triple triple combinations and triple triple sequences the norm, there are simply no guarantees.

Given that Mirai skated so well in the team event, would have put even greater pressure on her to reproduce what could very well be a once in a lifetime skate.

It isn't fair to compare Kaetlyn and Mirai. We can't assume to know how Nagasu processes what she does. This was her first Olympics, and Osmond's second, anyway.

No it wasn't. Mirai went to Vancouver, where she came 4th. Now yes, that was a long time ago. More importantly perhaps, Kaetlyn had done the TE in Sochi, so she had some experience with it.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I just don't completely buy it. I mean Kaetlyn made an error in the TE, that doesn't mean she didn't put focus on it. It's like we're saying a skater can only skate clean once, and I just don't believe that. If you're trained enough and don't play into distractions, you should be able to do both. If they were only there to focus on the team event, why even go out and compete in the individual? LOL. A lot of excuse-making is going on.

Remember that this season, Kaetlyn was all over the place, too, and rarely produced clean free skates.

You have to wonder if being the 2017 World Silver medal winner, impacted her mindset, too.

 

[Jammers]

Actually, Kurt Browning put it best in his autobiography when he was asked if winning once made winning again any easier. He said, that when everything is going well, it can. When it isn't, you just don't know if you can reproduce the same performance again, no matter how good you are.

Skating at the technical level it is now, is rife with so many interior and exterior variables. No one day is the same, no matter how much preparation you put in. With triple triple combinations and triple triple sequences the norm, there are simply no guarantees.

Given that Mirai skated so well in the team event, would have put even greater pressure on her to reproduce what could very well be a once in a lifetime skate.

It isn't fair to compare Kaetlyn and Mirai. We can't assume to know how Nagasu processes what she does. This was her first Olympics, and Osmond's second, anyway.

Ummm no this was Mirai's second Olympics too.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

No it wasn't. Mirai went to Vancouver, where she came 4th. Now yes, that was a long time ago. More importantly perhaps, Kaetlyn had done the TE in Sochi, so she had some experience with it.

Thank you for the correction.

Good to see Kaetlyn come through and take a medal. Before the event, I was thinking it would be a Russian sweep.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Ummm no this was Mirai's second Olympics too.

Original post corrected. Thanks for that. 8 years is a long time between drinks, though.