U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

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Bradie did well all things considered. It's not like she bombed and lost the team medal or had an embarrassing showing. Ninth is actually decent for her first major event.

One thing to remember is that it isn't entirely fair to compare past Olympics. Even as recently as 2010, most female skaters weren't doing triple-triple combos. Mirai was fourth then without one. But look at her now -- maybe she was tenth, but she still landed triple-triples and attempted the triple Axel. Even if the placements aren't stellar, I respect that they're attempting to keep up with the increased technical demand.
 
Still don't understand the Polina hate.

IMO, Polina earned her spot to Sochi. Let's not forget, as a junior, she competed against the likes of Medvedeva, Sotskova, and Sakhanovich (and also Karen Chen).

She made a big splash at Nationals, had very very respectable skates at the Olympics and Worlds, won Four Continents the following year and almost won Nationals the year after. Of all the juniors in the last five years, she's had the most success. She got injured and grew significantly, two things she can't be blamed for. She was hungry, competitive, and had the technical goods to compete -- all the things the USFS is being criticized for not instilling.

I like Ashley, but even if she went to Pyeongchang and skated her very best (with say only a few under-rotation calls and an edge call on the 3Lz), I'd still see her behind Zagitova, Medvedeva, Osmond, and Miyahara. Probably Kostner as well. She probably would've topped Sakamoto and Choi, so we're looking at 6th place. That's nowhere near the podium.

Our ladies didn't do their best, but realistically only one of them could've been 5th or 6th, tops, clean. Had they all done pretty well and gotten say 5th, 6th and 7th, there media would still cry doom and gloom.

Russia and Japan have "caught up" (they also share three of the last Olympic champs) with Korea fast on the rise. I think our ladies now the the technical requirements, they're just not hitting them regularly or consistently enough.
 
Karen--I like her so I don't want to pile on. I'm kind of angry she didn't get top 10. She deserved to be scored higher than Bradie and Mirai. There's so much to like about her, but the jumps are not consistent enough to be relied upon. Where to go from here?

Bradie--Johnny called her 'provincial' during the broadcast. That's kind or harsh, I don't know which. But she's 20 years old and she was wearing a junior costume skating to Cinderella. I couldn't stand to watch. If she continues to be on the U.S. scene in the coming years, I hope she improves her packaging a great deal and then I will take another look and give her a fair chance.

Mirai--I admired her guts in the SP. She mailed in the FS. To a point it's understandable, she wasn't going to medal anymore anyway and the competitive portion of her Olympic career was over. Sometimes it's hard to keep that fire when you've already accomplished everything you are going to accomplish and the end is near. It's not like if she had skated well it would have affected Team USA anyway.
 
Yep, it certainly isn't fair to compare and contrast past Olympics to what's happening today. But NYTimes reporters and editors apparently had time on their hands and didn't have any trouble doing so :drama:, likely with a lot of help from an intelligent computer algorithm :COP: :rolleyes: :duh: :yawn:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/22/sports/olympics/womens-figure-skating-jumps.html

I guess it figures that Pyeongchang organizers wanted to feature Korean skaters and other top stars and entertaining skaters such as Misha Ge, but gave Adam Rippon and Mirai Nagasu a pass.

Shame on snubby Pyeongchang. Also there was a lot of under the weather illness going on for other skaters who were invited but had to beg off: Nathan Chen (flu); Savchenko/Massot (illness); Hubbell/Donahue (illness).
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ting-gala-adam-rippon-mirai-nagasu/369814002/
Whoa-za re Zagitova's Goddess of Fire routine :watch: I don't know if she's performed that exhibition before since I don't get to see many exhibitions during the year. Most of the rest was standard fare. It was nice to see the Shibs bring out their Sinatra/Jay-Z hip-hop SD routine, and V/M & P/C were fun to watch. I didn't see the whole thing but what I caught was mostly anti-climactic. No fireworks. Why weren't the French team James/Cipres there if Marchei/Hotarek got an invite? They needed Adam, Mirai and Elladj out there or even Keegan to spice things up. Or better yet Jimmy 'Turn Down For What' Ma!
 
Polina hate.

What's hating by stating facts: Polina's injury deep-sixed her career momentum, and during her recovery period, she seemed to really enjoy college life. If not for the injury and the long period away, and her growth spurt, she may have prevailed. She was certainly a focused competitor. Like every skater, she had things to improve upon, which takes time. But sometimes life happens and takes you in a different direction, and there's nothing wrong with that. Had Polina been able to come back strong with some firepower it would have been great, but it didn't happen. As I said, I don't think Polina's loss to U.S. ladies is as impactful as Gracie's necessity to step away. Polina had a personal victory with her sp at U.S. Nationals in January, but she withdrew from the fp.

It's not hating on athletes to mention they didn't make it back to the Olympics. It's just an indication that a lot can happen in four years.

Korea fast on the rise.

Who exactly? Jun Hwa Cha is a very talented young skater in the men's division. He's still working on developing quads and building strength and experience. Choi and Hanul in ladies are pleasant skaters with some talent, but I don't see either as the second coming of Yu Na Kim. I think Choi was favored and over-scored in her home country. She performed fairly clean, but I don't see much about her that stands out or separates her from the pack. Min/Gamelin are a lovely ice dance team, but I'm not sure how far they will rise with the plethora of talent in the discipline.

6th place. That's nowhere near the podium

Ummm, I think 6th place is certainly somewhere nearer to the podium than 9th place. :P
 
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Choi and Hanul in ladies are pleasant skaters with some talent, but I don't see either as the second coming of Yu Na Kim. I think Choi was favored and over-scored in her home country. She performed fairly clean, but I don't see much about her that stands out or separates her from the pack.

I don't think Dabin was overscored at all, she was scored about right. With Kostner's ridiculous scores, if anything she should have placed 6th. Right now she's a solid, pleasant, top-10 skater, no more no less. Maybe she will get better in the future but it's not fair to compare her to Yuna, everyone should have their own style. That was one of the major problems with the way Gracie was handled, Frank Carroll and the others wanted to turn her into some bygone prototype instead of letting her become herself on the ice.
 
Someone else framing the argument so they can win. Bradie skated three programs. The most important of the three was the team event. There she skated a completely clean, solid program. That was her job and she did it well.
:lol: win? What do I win? Do I get a toaster?
Now all of a sudden all usfs cares about is the team event? :lol: will they not be sending any ladies to worlds next month because there's no team event there? Talk about reframing an argument! I didn't get the memo where all the us audience, the usfs, and the corporate sponsors care about is the team event.
Technically, the only people who did their "job" were the shibs. And I don't mean the medal as much as I mean skating their best for every event they were in. Unless her "job" was having her worst skates of the entire season at the ladies Oly event, she didn't do it.
 
Copying over this comment from another thread:
I was encouraged by the Junior Ladies medalists at Nats. Time will tell if they can continue to progress in Seniors, but I thought they showed a good combo of technical skill (3-3s) and presentation for their age.
USFS so far has given post-Nationals developmental international assignments to 4 junior ladies (not counting Junior Worlds).

3 U.S. ladies competed at Challenge Cup in The Hague this past week:

2018 Junior champ Alysa LIU, 12, won the silver medal in Advanced Novice Ladies with a total score of 129.78.
She won the SP (2A, 3F, 3Lz<+2T) and was 2nd in the FS (2A, 3Lz+3T, 3F+2T, 3Lo<, 3Lz, 3F) to the winner, Japan's Novice A champion who scored 134.77 total (note: Japan sent all 3 of their Novice A medalists to this comp. so this was a competitive field for Alysa).

Junior Ladies results:
4 Gabriella IZZO USA 153.62 2 4 (J6 at Nationals - her Team USA debut)
5 Akari NAKAHARA USA 143.00 6 5 (J8)

At the Bavarian Open in late January, 2018 U.S. Junior silver medalist Pooja KALYAN won the bronze medal with a total score of 156.45 (3rd in SP & FS).

I assume that the only other junior in the top 9 at Nationals who has yet to compete internationally, Emily Zhang (J5), may get her opportunity in the near future, along with Novice champion Beverly Zhu who dominated the field in January, landing 6 triples cleanly in her FS, including 3F+3T.

Ting Cui (J3; landed 7 triples cleanly in her FS at Nationals) and Emmy Ma (won a JGP bronze this past fall) are assigned to next month's Junior Worlds. The 3 listed subs are: Hanna Harrell (J4), Angelina Huang (J7) and Brynne McIsaac (S15).
ETA that all 5 of these ladies attended USFS' Junior Worlds camp several weeks ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/BeoRhSvFK3E/?hl=en&taken-by=usfigureskating (L to R: McIsaac, Cui, Ma, Harrell, Huang)
 
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By the way, after the emotions have worn off, I went back and looked at the ladies' scores. All things being equal, if Bradie had not fallen in the SP and had rotated / properly landed the 2 jumping passes in the LP, she would've finished somewhere in the 207 - 208 range, just behind Kaori. If Mirai had only stepped out of her 3A in the SP, cleaned up the 3L a tad, then had a team event 3A in her individual LP and a proper 3Z, she would have also been in this same ballpark.

That still ranks 7th and 8th. I think it would take a miracle for the US to retain 3 spots for 2019
 
What kind of twisted world do you live in where a national champion having the absolute worst Oly finish in the entire century long history of the sport is "just fine"? :scream:

Isn't this the first time ever where a US Nationals Champion wasnt on the radar 3 months prior, and had no MAJOR international (senior or junior) creds???

Lets face it not a lot of people knew who she was including judges...

And with all this she still beat all the US chicks who had cred and the judges knew....
 
I remember reading a post on either FSU or Goldenskate in which Eteri was noted as saying that she finds American skaters work harder than Russian skaters in practice. Does she give seminars or teach for brief periods of time in the U.S.? She's producing champions on the Jr. and Senior level. I wonder what her training techniques are. They would be worth analyzing
 
@olympic There's another thread in the trash can discussing it, but her training methods would definitely not fly in the US. It involves encouraging/ignoring eating disorders, "evaluating" and potentially firing skaters that aren't up to snuff every week, obvious favoritism (her response to Medvedeva vs. Alina), and other questionable things...
 
Gee, I thought some pressure would have been taken off. No excuses for these ladies. You are at the Olympics. I haven't seen anything interesting to watch yet from anyone. Hopefully, the final group will have some fireworks. :COP: Where's Ashley and La La Land when we need her? :drama: That didn't look like any fight at all from Karen and Mirai. I know the judges essentially put Mirai out of the running with the way they marked her in the sp, but at least show some fight for a personal victory if nothing else. If you're just there for the team event, then you don't need to compete in the singles event. Bradie was nervous again, but at least she fought through the rest of her program. I'm underwhelmed by Karen Chen. In figure skating, you need to come with some fight and some steel. No pressure was put on the final group. Nada.

It looks like Mirai succumbed to the distractions, and to the fact she already has a medal in her grasp. At least she performed in the team event. Start with a bang, end with a whimper.

You weren't in their heads. How would you know if they didn't fight or not Mirai in particular? You didn't skate, they did.
 
Who exactly? Jun Hwa Cha is a very talented young skater in the men's division. He's still working on developing quads and building strength and experience. Choi and Hanul in ladies are pleasant skaters with some talent, but I don't see either as the second coming of Yu Na Kim. I think Choi was favored and over-scored in her home country. She performed fairly clean, but I don't see much about her that stands out or separates her from the pack. Min/Gamelin are a lovely ice dance team, but I'm not sure how far they will rise with the plethora of talent in the discipline.

I think @all_empty was talking about ladies specifically. Young You and Eunsoo Lim are on the rise internationally and both of them may have made the team instead of the 2 that competed in Pyeonchang if they weren't too young.
I agree with @ToFarAwayTimes that Choi is a solid skater- nothing spectacular and on the same level as Sotskova, Daleman, and the US ladies. You and Lim have way more potential and I expect both to be squarely in the mix with the Russians and Japanese in the next Olympic cycle.
 
I wouldn't say complete package but 80% there. I tend to find her rushed and sloppy and, let's be honest, she has no business choreographing her own routines.

Karen worked with a new, highly respected choreographer this season. She just dumped the programs rather than work on them. I know that sounds harsh, but doing real choreography takes time to learn and lots of practice (this is why you see so many programs where by the end of the season all the choreography is gone.) If Karen wants to be a force on the international stage she is going to have to learn to work with a choreographer and put in the time and effort to polish the choreography.
 
Karen worked with a new, highly respected choreographer this season. She just dumped the programs rather than work on them. I know that sounds harsh, but doing real choreography takes time to learn and lots of practice (this is why you see so many programs where by the end of the season all the choreography is gone.) If Karen wants to be a force on the international stage she is going to have to learn to work with a choreographer and put in the time and effort to polish the choreography.
If you mean Mark Pillay, he's not new to her, at least according to her Wikipedia page. It says he did her Miss Saigon FS in 2013-14. But that was quite a while ago.
 
If you mean Mark Pillay, he's not new to her, at least according to her Wikipedia page. It says he did her Miss Saigon FS in 2013-14. But that was quite a while ago.

You are right, I forgot about that program. My point was she did work with a choreographer, she just chose not to use the programs.
 
I think @all_empty was talking about ladies specifically. Young You and Eunsoo Lim are on the rise internationally and both of them may have made the team instead of the 2 that competed in Pyeonchang if they weren't too young.
I agree with @ToFarAwayTimes that Choi is a solid skater- nothing spectacular and on the same level as Sotskova, Daleman, and the US ladies. You and Lim have way more potential and I expect both to be squarely in the mix with the Russians and Japanese in the next Olympic cycle.

Yep, I didn't say Choi isn't a solid skater. Right now though, she doesn't stand out from the pack, and she was overscored due to being in her home country, because she is talented and she skated fairly cleanly, if somewhat tentatively. She has a flowing, pleasant style to her skating, but I don't see much personality there. Kim Hanul I actually find somewhat more interesting than Choi. But sure, neither appear right now to outshine the potential of Eunsoo Lim and Young You. I think Young You still has a ways to go in developing in the younger ranks. I really enjoy Eunsoo Lim's skating. She is definitely outstanding, memorable and someone to watch. But once again, hopefully outsized expectations and pressure will not be overdone for these skaters. Also, we shouldn't completely ignore So-youn Park's contributions, even though she has not risen to the top tier like Yu Na. In general, South Korea is committed to developing in all of the disciplines and it's nice to see the progress they are making in some areas, particularly in ladies and with Jun Hwa.

There's always ebb and flow and unpredictability in skating. South Korea is obviously trying to make inroads again in ladies but I wouldn't characterize it as their ladies being 'on the rise.' If Eunsoo Lim continues to develop, I can see her as someone who can eventually challenge for top of the podium. I don't see that in Choi and Hanul, unless they each make some dramatically unexpected improvements.

I would not equate Choi at her current level with Gabby Daleman, simply because Gabby faltered at this event. :drama: Gabby is a much more powerful, dynamic, expressive and 'on-the-rise' skater than Dabin Choi, in my estimation. Gabby is hands down a better skater with more speed and ice coverage, plus Gabby is already a World bronze medalist. IMO, Choi does not stand up to any of the top Japanese ladies either, who have much more dynamic skills and are more 'on-the-rise,' including Sakamoto, Higuchi, Mihara, and Kihara, no matter whether or not Choi can beat one or more on a given day (fs is not only about talent, it's about political-based judging).

You can compare Choi to Sotskova if you will. I think Sotskova is a more dynamic jumper, but neither have a lot of spark or expressive personality to their skating. I think Choi has a softer and more lyrical quality to her skating, and their physicalities are completely different, since Sotskova is much taller. Sotskova also has the benefit of being Russian that unfortunately also comes with the inherently uncertain strife as a Russian lady, of having to battle domestically to stay viable competitively for more than a hot minute.

As far as U.S. ladies, Bradie is still new on the senior scene, but her jumps are a technical marvel, and I see top tier competitive potential in her. It does remain to be seen how Bradie's career trajectory will pan out. Further, Mirai is a veteran with a lot of ups-and-downs but she's way more talented athletically and artistically than Dabin Choi, whether or not Mirai's overall career results have actually lived up to her precocious potential. That said, certainly what Mirai has accomplished by this end-of-career point, is greater than Dabin Choi's current stats. Karen Chen also has more talent athletically and aesthetically than Choi, even despite the fact that Karen has foot/boot issues and she has routinely underperformed. In my view, even Mariah Bell has more dynamic talent than Choi, despite Choi showing to this point a bit more consistency and competitiveness.
 
I'm sure there's a clue to her issues in competition in the whole "I choreograph my own programs" thing.
 
Karen worked with a new, highly respected choreographer this season. She just dumped the programs rather than work on them. I know that sounds harsh, but doing real choreography takes time to learn and lots of practice (this is why you see so many programs where by the end of the season all the choreography is gone.) If Karen wants to be a force on the international stage she is going to have to learn to work with a choreographer and put in the time and effort to polish the choreography.

Sorry, but those programs were crap. People complained about them from the very beginning. She was right to drop them. Some times choreographer get it wrong.
 
There's always ebb and flow and unpredictability in skating. South Korea is obviously trying to make inroads again in ladies but I wouldn't characterize it as their ladies being 'on the rise.' If Eunsoo Lim continues to develop, I can see her as someone who can eventually challenge for top of the podium

South Korean ladies are most definitely on the rise. The Japanese and Russian ladies have dominated the Junior Circuit for the past couple of years, but the South Koreans haven't been far behind. Lim finished 4th at 2017 Junior Worlds, and has won two JGP medals in the past two seasons. Her lowest placement in the JGP has been 4th, so she has done consistently well. Young You had a solid debut season with two top 5 finishes. Lim wasn't as impressive as the top 2, but she's also placed consistently well in the JGP. Baring disaster, South Korea should be in the top 3 countries at Junior Worlds and get the full set of of JGP spots.

All 3 ladies were inspired by Yuna Kim. Maybe it will only be junior success, but I'd personally expect at least one of them to do quite well on the senior level internationally.
 
I honestly don’t remember the long, but the short to Tango de Roxanne (music aside) was not crap. It was a fabulous program that just needed a ton of work. Exponentially more sophisticated than what she ended up. Like I said, doing real choreography can be very difficult. Karen took the easy route out. The short she went with was, IMHO, very unsophisticated.
 
... the short to Tango de Roxanne (music aside) was not crap. It was a fabulous program that just needed a ton of work. Exponentially more sophisticated than what she ended up. Like I said, doing real choreography can be very difficult. Karen took the easy route out.
My understanding is that when Karen decided to go back to her 2016-17 Tango FS for Skate America in late November, her SP to El Tango de Roxanne, choreographed by Pillay, had to be replaced because the program styles were too similar.
 
I honestly don’t remember the long, but the short to Tango de Roxanne (music aside) was not crap. It was a fabulous program that just needed a ton of work. Exponentially more sophisticated than what she ended up. Like I said, doing real choreography can be very difficult. Karen took the easy route out. The short she went with was, IMHO, very unsophisticated.

I liked her Tango de Roxanne sp, but I also liked on On Golden Pond sp. Both were better than all her longs this year. I thought her Carmen that she debuted early this year even though it was pretty empty- it had potential. Again it was odd she was going with two Latin programs though.
 
My understanding is that when Karen decided to go back to her 2016-17 Tango FS for Skate America in late November, her SP to El Tango de Roxanne, choreographed by Pillay, had to be replaced because the program styles were too similar.

I hear things like this and just shake my head.

For one thing, it didn't hurt Zagitova to do two ballet inspired programs this year.

But beyond that, programs just don't matter like they used to. It's ridiculous to obsess over them if your goal is scoring more points.
 
I hear things like this and just shake my head.

For one thing, it didn't hurt Zagitova to do two ballet inspired programs this year.

But beyond that, programs just don't matter like they used to. It's ridiculous to obsess over them if your goal is scoring more points.

Sad, but true.
 
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