U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

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Willin said:
I think Mariah's a truly lovely skater. If she can skate clean, she's certainly a contender at any event. Her problem is her tendency to not skate cleanly. I think she could be the next Ashley - not in attitude, but in being a late bloomer.
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Hmm, I enjoyed reading Mariah's confident words re: 2022, but Ashley Wagner is not one I have ever associated with the term 'late bloomer.' She was hyped as a potential spoiler to the Nagasu-Zhang rivalry of 2007, skated great at what was a very weird Nationals, and was seen as the only real hope of a top 6 placement in... Stockholm? She then began building a pretty convincing argument for BOW consideration by winning Nats LP in 2009, but missing out on the team due to a flawed SP. Similarly, she entered 2010 Nats as a heavy favorite after being the sole American entry to the GPF but ended up exactly where she would 4 and 8 years later - 1 spot shy.

Just like this year, I think USFSA should have placed her on the World team. I see BOW holding up much more strongly when considering Oly vs. World assignments since there is not much harm in giving a skater trending upward a shot at the OG, whereas a proven vet is prudent when earning berths.

Anyway, AW is similar to Nagasu in that they both really went all-in technically this quad. She just went to Mills-Nicks before Raf which stunted the tech ability she had shown as a junior for the sake of improving pretty much everything else. Caro Kostner is a good example of a late bloomer, IMO. I don't know of any other skater who flipped fans' impressions of their skating 180 in the middle of a career. 2004 - 2010 Kostner was painful to watch, and you'd have never been able to convince me I would be rooting for her passionately by Sochi. Since Mariah is speaking of SS in particular, CK seems to be an even more obvious fit.
 
JJS5056 said:
Hmm, I enjoyed reading Mariah's confident words re: 2022, but Ashley Wagner is not one I have ever associated with the term 'late bloomer.' She was hyped as a potential spoiler to the Nagasu-Zhang rivalry of 2007, skated great at what was a very weird Nationals, and was seen as the only real hope of a top 6 placement in... Stockholm? She then began building a pretty convincing argument for BOW consideration by winning Nats LP in 2009, but missing out on the team due to a flawed SP. Similarly, she entered 2010 Nats as a heavy favorite after being the sole American entry to the GPF but ended up exactly where she would 4 and 8 years later - 1 spot shy.

Just like this year, I think USFSA should have placed her on the World team. I see BOW holding up much more strongly when considering Oly vs. World assignments since there is not much harm in giving a skater trending upward a shot at the OG, whereas a proven vet is prudent when earning berths.

Anyway, AW is similar to Nagasu in that they both really went all-in technically this quad. She just went to Mills-Nicks before Raf which stunted the tech ability she had shown as a junior for the sake of improving pretty much everything else. Caro Kostner is a good example of a late bloomer, IMO. I don't know of any other skater who flipped fans' impressions of their skating 180 in the middle of a career. 2004 - 2010 Kostner was painful to watch, and you'd have never been able to convince me I would be rooting for her passionately by Sochi. Since Mariah is speaking of SS in particular, CK seems to be an even more obvious fit.
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@JJS5056 Guess I am confused as to your reference "She was hyped as a potential spoiler to the Nagasu-Zhang rivalry of 2007, skated great at what was a very weird Nationals," Are you talking about 2007 Nationals where AW was still a junior (she finished 3rd, 10 points behind Nagasu, and 6 points behind Zhang)...
or 2008 Nationals, where AW was the bronze medalist behind Nagasu 1st overall (1st SP, 3rd LP) , Flatt 2nd overall ( 3rd SP, 1st LP), who were both too young to compete at 2008 Worlds and instead competed at 2008 World Juniors (Flatt 1st, Zhang 2nd, Nagasu 3rd), and Wagner finished 3rd overall at '08 US Nationals (SP 2nd, 2nd LP), who then went to 2008 Worlds, where she finished 16th overall (11th in SP, 15th in LP)? Wagner, Nagasu and Flatt all skated well at 2008 Nationals ;-) And, the only thing that was weird that year was 3 of the top 4 medalists were too young to go to Worlds. Wagner had a less than a stellar debut at Worlds in 2008. :-(

The BOW argument works only if AW had had a solid autumn international season in 2017, and it's hard to argue for that, Yes, she was bronze medalist at SC (7th in SP, 4th in LP, with < and negative GOE on a number of jump elements). Her W/D during the LP skate at SA did not help her build her case for BOD for 2017/2018 season, with similar jumping element issues at SA as at SC (< and negative GOEs). :-(

Going back one season, to 2016/2017, she had started out well, winning SA, but she struggled with both her SP and LP at 2016 CofC , 6th overall, and then rebounded and skated well at 2017 Nationals. At the 2017 World Championships in Helsinki, Wagner was 7th in the SP and in a sub-par long program, placing 10th, and 7th overall.

So, with the exception of 2016 SA (1st), and 2017 Nationals (2nd), where she skated well in both SP and LP , her other events ....she struggled with jump elements and as much as you want to look at placement, you also have to look at how she actually competed. Its helpful to go back and look at the judges protocol sheets. I am sure US Figure Skating tracks all of that data, and I think that data weighed against AW, in that her BOW for the last two seasons had not built a good case for her for the 2018 OLY or World teams.
 
Dr.Siouxs said:
Ok, so they all bombed but now the pressure is OFF. Imagine if they all go clean it they've all done it before :cheer2::cheer::cheer2::cheer:
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All of the US ladies have varying degrees of international experience. How they handle tomorrow could work (for or against them in) a number of ways.

Either, putting yesterday behind them, and really going for it like Nathan Chen did in his free skate.

Or, trying too hard to make amends, and making it worse.

Or, giving up completely.
 
Dr.Siouxs said:
Ok, so they all bombed but now the pressure is OFF. Imagine if they all go clean it they've all done it before :cheer2::cheer::cheer2::cheer:
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They all bombed? What are you smoking? Mirai rotated and almost stood up on a 3A! The rest of her program was clean - seriously, what more could you ask for. Bradie has been a trooper. She skated great in the team event, had to wait for over a week for this event. Yes, she fell, but seriously she is not a robot. Karen skated basically the way she always skates. Were you expecting them all to suddenly be 150% better than usual?
 
Dr.Siouxs said:
Ok, so they all bombed but now the pressure is OFF. Imagine if they all go clean it they've all done it before :cheer2::cheer::cheer2::cheer:
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sorry but the oly podium ship has sailed. Any Nathan style lp will be as his was, a calling card for worlds. Fingers crossed
mag said:
They all bombed? What are you smoking?
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apparently just cigarettes because hello they did bomb and if any one of them tells Andrea Joyce their lifelong dream since childhood is to come 12th at the Olys, she’d be telling lies
Iirc since 1976, this is the very first time no us lady will be in the final warm up group
 
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berthesghost said:
sorry but the oly podium ship has sailed. Any Nathan style lp will be as his was, a calling card for worlds. Fingers crossed apparently just cigarettes because hello they did bomb and if any one of them tells Andrea Joyce their lifelong dream since childhood is to come 12th at the Olys, she’d be telling lies
Iirc since 1976, this is the very first time no us lady will be in the final warm up group
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Yet just today I was explaining to some
young people, that someone comes last in every event at the Olympics. I asked if the last place person was a winner or a loser. Even children could work out that just being at the Olympics is a huge achievement.

Everyone has different goals, if the podium is the only goal, then most people should give up and we should only let the top group skate their freeskate.

Sure, you may be disappointed in their performances if you were hoping for medals, some of them may even feel the same way, but they sure as anything didn’t bomb.

Sport is about so much more than the podium.

Perhaps you’ve forgotten, it’s a phrase echoed by the founder of the Olympics, Baron Pierre de Coubertin, who said "The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not winning but taking part; the essential thing in life is not conquering but fighting well."
 
Thanks so much @clairecloutier for posting the link to the Katy Taylor article. :) Here's a tweeted photo of Katy's young daughter holding up the front page story of her mom! https://twitter.com/ReidLaymance/status/966398020987256832

Excerpts from the Katy Taylor article by David Barron (who covered her for the Houston Chronicle when she was at her prime):
A year after being the 2006 Olympic alternate, Taylor fell to the ice four times in four minutes at the national championships in Spokane, Wash. She suffered a stress fracture in her right foot. Her parents were divorced. She stopped training. She developed an eating disorder.
She went to college. She gave birth to a daughter. She put her skates away for four years. Along the way, she convinced herself she had let her country down, had failed her family and coaches, that she bore the scarlet "A" of alternate, never an Olympian.
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After enduring and discarding years of regret and self-doubt, Taylor, 28, is still skating, coaching at her Willowbrook Aerodrome home rink, joined by daughter Autumn, 51/2, who darts around the ice for fun while her mother works with students.
...
"That word 'alternate' really offended me, but now I take it with pride," she said. "It's hard to raise an Olympian. Now, I want to raise good human beings and help them learn what this sport can teach you and find whatever potential they have."
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U.S. ladies looking to bounce back (Tennell has flawless run-through): http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/02/21/266908174
Bradie Tennell skated a perfect outing of her Cinderella free skate in Thursday morning's practice, weaving in and out of skaters in her warmup group and landing [seven] triple jumps a few feet away from teammates Mirai Nagasu and Karen Chen.
Nothing fazed Tennell. It was like she was back home at the Twin Rinks Ice Pavilion in Buffalo Grove, Illinois, and had the ice all to herself.
"I think that makes run-throughs on the ice by yourself easier, because if I know I can do it with other people getting in my way, I know I can do it alone," Tennell said after practice.
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Tammy Gambill, who coaches Chen in Riverside, California, thinks the skater's disappointing short program was a result of her trying too hard.
"Her combination [3Lz+3T], it's been so nice and clean here, and so I think she just wanted to prove to everybody she can do it solid, and she tried a little bit too hard," Gambill said.
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Tom Zakrajsek, who coaches Nagasu in Colorado Springs, thinks missing the [3A] jump in Wednesday's short was a focus issue.
"She set it up really well, but there was hesitation from the back-outside edge to the initiation of the jump, and that is a big no-no with the axel," Zakrajsek said.
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berthesghost said:
... sorry but the oly podium ship has sailed. Any Nathan style lp will be as his was, a calling card for worlds. Fingers crossed
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There was a lot of hoping on the down low and fingers-crossing, but seriously and realistically with the depth in ladies as well as the politics not being in U.S. ladies' favor, the podium was always going to be just out of reach. I think for the difficulty Mirai went for (and having shown she can land that triple-axel beautifully), the judges should not have dinged Mirai so heavily! She has to be perfect with a freakin' 3-axel and everything else in order to get any consideration to be just on cusp of breaking 70+ points? :drama: The judges didn't feel the same about Mikhail Kolyada, as they consistently placed his hot mess performances over a clean Adam Rippon, with the excuse that Kolyada was going for more difficulty and was allowed falls. :rolleyes:

To be honest, after Mirai landed a perfect 3-axel in the Team Event, the judges knew they should reward her or else. But that scenario was a teaser to Mirai's fans and supporters hoping and anticipating she might be able to do it again in the singles event. The judges were never going to make it easy for any of the U.S. ladies. And unfortunately, Bradie had to go out there first in the first group, and did not have her feet underneath her on the first jumping pass. She certainly threw off the nerves thereafter and delivered so she was not completely buried in the standings. I didn't expect a perfect skate from Karen Chen, but she's been under the radar, so one always hopes a talented skater can overcome nerves and pull something special out of the hat. It was not to be.

However, to say that Mirai or any of the U.S. ladies' 'bombed' is an OTT and inaccurate characterization. With her difficulty and how she skated overall, Mirai should be in at least 6th or 7th place. There's no way South Korea's Dabin Choi should have been placed in front of Mirai (that's a political result partly based on home country venue, regardless of Choi's fairly clean but unspectacular performance -- some feel that Choi UR-ed one of her triples). Gabby Daleman faltered on her money jumping pass (which is not as difficult as a 3-axel). I don't see how Gabby should be receiving higher PCS than Mirai (discussed in Mirai thread in Trash Can). And I enjoy Gabby's skating.

I'm still trying to deal with Johnny Weir's claim that high 60s is average, low to mid 70s is good, and 80+ is Russian. :COP: Such conceit. Of course Medvedeva and Zagitova are talented, fiercely competitive and consistent technically, but their PCS scores are beyond realistic. :duh:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/SEG003.HTM
 
Just now on Karen Chen’s Instagram story... omg.. she’s having boot problems.. and she said ‘pray for me please’. if I could attach the screenshot that I took of it I would.. what a horrible time for boot problems
 
Gee, I thought some pressure would have been taken off. No excuses for these ladies. You are at the Olympics. I haven't seen anything interesting to watch yet from anyone. Hopefully, the final group will have some fireworks. :COP: Where's Ashley and La La Land when we need her? :drama: That didn't look like any fight at all from Karen and Mirai. I know the judges essentially put Mirai out of the running with the way they marked her in the sp, but at least show some fight for a personal victory if nothing else. If you're just there for the team event, then you don't need to compete in the singles event. Bradie was nervous again, but at least she fought through the rest of her program. I'm underwhelmed by Karen Chen. In figure skating, you need to come with some fight and some steel. No pressure was put on the final group. Nada.

It looks like Mirai succumbed to the distractions, and to the fact she already has a medal in her grasp. At least she performed in the team event. Start with a bang, end with a whimper.
 
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Wow. US ladies have become tier 2 (or maybe they have been for awhile and I didn't know). Penultimate group material. Hard to believe 2 years ago that Ashley and Gracie were 2nd and 4th in the World. I think another big hole has been blown in the ranks of US ladies similar to 2008.

ETA - But, I've kind of let it go. I don't get worked up for US ladies anymore. They will do what they do on the ice and there is no changing that as a fan. I have become freer to enjoy the skating of Kaetlyn, Satoko and the Russians w/o worrying whether Karen is going to land rotated jumps and not fall.
 
It just wasn't the Americans day. :( But even if they had skated perfectly none of them can touch the elite imho (i.e. Kaetlyn Osmond, Zagitova, Medvedeva). Still, I give them all props for trying. They made it to the Olympics and are not only Olympians but also Olympic Bronze Medalists. Furthermore, I'll never ever forget Mirai Nagasu's freeskate in the Team Event ~ one for the ages!!!! BRAVA!!!!:oksana1::plush::sarah1::sasha1::shizuka1:
 
RD said:
Welp, have fun picking up the pieces USFS...and good luck finding them all too.
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I mean why not go to Canadian ladies thread and opine over what happened to Gabriel Daleman?! Poor Gabby. She seemed off her stride for not being in the final group. She's got some pieces to pick up as well @RD -- not just U.S. ladies this time, eh. Even if U.S. ladies had performed, they might only have gotten slightly closer to the podium. So what!

I'm happy for Kaetlyn. She really attacked that fp, and skated really well in both programs. What a victory because Satoko could have pushed Kaetlyn off the podium if Kaetlyn hadn't fought and skated so brilliantly. Kaetlyn's jumps are really amazing with their height and distance.
 
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Ashley woulda been the highest scoring USA woman here..... Shame the USA Nats judges were all shady!

Now the USA judges can see how their Oly team members are scored in the REAL world....

Bradie deserved her Nats title, I think Mirai MOSTLY deserved the silver (it still had mistakes)... but Ashley??? 4th..over Karen... keep drinking the kool-aid US judges...

And then to hear about boot problems? again???? Child........... I can't rehash this story for the 17th time. #justcant

Ash would have had the highest SP and free here over all the USA ladies.

Shame they had to make up ways to keep her off the team. Well, now they can see it didnt pay off for them. Oh and did Johnny just say worst showing for American ladies ever?

USA judges keep the world silver medalist off this team and the one who gets the most respectable scores from an INTERnational panel.. you can lead horses to the water, but they choose kool-aid.
 
NadineWhite said:
Still, I give them all props for trying. They made it to the Olympics and are not only Olympians but also Olympic Bronze Medalists. Furthermore, I'll never ever forget Mirai Nagasu's freeskate in the Team Event ~ one for the ages!!!! BRAVA!!!!:oksana1::plush::sarah1::sasha1::shizuka1:
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I really appreciate your positivity! :cheer:

Onto Worlds!
 
You know I expected all the ladies who finished ahead to finish ahead (only surprise was Dabin Chio instead of Gabriel Daleman) so I guess its no surprise. Yeah a potential meltdown by Carolina, or another, which was not unrealistic at all, could have inched the US ladies a step higher but still 9th as the highest finisher is no surprise.

Ashley in her current competitive shape would have done no better! She would have needed to be in 2016 shape to get any higher then 6th here so I'm hoping we're spared a hundred pages of "they should have sent Ashley" posts
 
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