U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

[Vagabond]

It's been a week or two. Stars have been made. And, for those with the right Body of Work ("BOW"), Taipei, Sofia, Pyeongchang (Gangneung, actually), and Milan beckon.

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting the updated assignments for 4CC and Junior Worlds, plus Olympics/Worlds in this new thread:

2018 Four Continents Championships (Jan. 22-27 in Taipei City)
Starr Andrews
Mariah Bell
Angela Wang (replaced Wagner)

Bradie Tennell, Mirai Nagasu, Karen Chen: U.S. FIGURE SKATING ANNOUNCES LADIES NOMINATIONS FOR 2018 U.S. OLYMPIC FIGURE SKATING TEAM (same 3 are assigned to Worlds (March 19-25 in Milan)

2018 World Junior Championships (March 5-11 in Sofia BUL)
Ting Cui
Emmy Ma (replaced Andrews)

 

[JJS5056]

In the last thread, comments were made to the tune of "Ashley has nobody but herself to blame," that she slacked off in some way, and made mention of her approach all 3 of her Olympic seasons.

If you followed AW's career, the fact that she was in form to essentially pull off [very close to] the tech base maximum for Ladies for 3 straight years shows there is NO way she was not working her butt off. In her physical peak, she lost 2 World medals because she couldn't get a SP 3-3 or LP 2A-3T. She spent years just trying to get the bare minimum to contend, switched 3-3's 3 times and switched flip technique 3 times. She was CAPABLE of hitting her Boston layout at Nationals, which included a 3-3 and a 3-1-3. URs were a problem for her since 2008 so the possibility of "<" does NOT = "slacking off." She worked damn hard to maintain that level of content, even if it failed her.

When LLL failed to deliver what she was after, I think she let her last 2 Olympic seasons play with her mind and said "I am going with my gut; ML it is" rather than work on a failed program until the last second a la R&J. Had ML been used 1 season or had she gotten a new SP, it could have worked out, but she had to know how stale the package had become and I think it was extremely risky and admirable of her to debut LLL for whatever it was and not let the R&J demons make her look back with regret.

When AW described the program she wanted for this season, I knew exactly what she meant. It had to be character-driven, showcase emotional low culminating in strength. BBC always referenced the Oscars during her best skates of ML, and that is what she has/had if not the intricate transitions. To convingly throw down your arms and let 'everything go' desperately moments before a 3-1-3 is AW personified. It was easily apparent that this LLL lacked the kind of up-down-up arc that she wanted to show total ownership of this year and that's a huge shame. She wasted last year's programs to not suffocate the audience with the same style, and this year was ultimately a bust. Ultimately, as I have stated elsewhere, she is/was a skater more impacted by her team than most. Had she had a Mills-like member of her current team, maybe they could have nailed down the perfect LPs for '17 and '18 at least.

Her SS/TR may not be in the top tier but she is nowhere near as bad as some say, and if anything, outside Boston, her IN/CH/PE were stingy at times. She WAS, overall, a top-tier PCS skater; just as she was, at her worst, a top 7 skater in the World for 6 Worlds running. Something tells me U.S. fans will miss having that reliable of a bet very soon.

 

[JJS5056]

Anyone remember when, after being the sole Lady at the 09-10 GPF, USFSA gave AW a JUNIOR WORLDS assignment after she won bronze at Nationals? I still think she should have gotten Worlds that season.

I said in an earlier thread that USFSA's approach to team selection was counterintuitive. Athletes need to know when they have to push their bodies to be in peak form, which hurt skaters during the "100% Nats" era as they played it easy earlier in the season and often faded out in the post-season. But, this ambiguous system is even worse. IMO, they should create their own SB and "NS" (Nats Standing) list to provide an objective view of the skaters with momentum and the skaters with a record. Assign points and weights to competitions or even something like PCS abroad; just make it transparent. Ultimately, how they use those lists to pick their teams will never be a mathematical formula or else they'll be just as stuck as using Nats placements! The final selection must be somewhat open, but what is being favored should be obvious to all.

For example, the Ladies may have looked like:
1. SB 17-18: Tennell, Wagner/Nagasu, Chen, Bell
2. NS 15-18: Chen/Wagner, Bell, Nagasu, Tennell

My team would have been: Tennell, Wagner, Chen; the strongest IRL, IMO. I really wish this discussion was about the true 2018 team as it should have been: 1. Wagner (2015 World Champion, 2016 World Bronze); 2. Gold (2015 World Bronze, 2016 World Silver), 3. Edmunds (2014-2017 Worlds: top 8), but should be interesting to watch regardless and hope those 3 are all proud of their own successes.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

I am of the school who thinks Nationals should ponder a lot, more so in an Olympic year as the the big O are so close to Nationals. You want to send the skaters who are bang on. Not the ones who peaked too early and have no gas left, the ones who are on the top of their game. The problem is when you have 4 skaters performing more or so equally for a three ticket team...

 

[vesperholly]

I am of the school who thinks Nationals should ponder a lot, more so in an Olympic year as the the big O are so close to Nationals. You want to send the skaters who are bang on. Not the ones who peaked too early and have no gas left, the ones who are on the top of their game.

Sure, but one could equally argue that those skaters have already peaked at Nationals and cannot reproduce the same results again in a month.

If you look at the US's recent singles Olympic champions (Lysacek, Hughes, Lipinski), none of them did particularly well at Nationals before the Olympics. Lysacek was a distant second (21 points back) to Abbott in 2010, Hughes was 3rd in 2002 and Lipinski fell in the SP and ended up 2nd in 1998.

 

[clairecloutier]

Charlie White shared this great blog post from 2001 U.S. Junior Ladies Champion Joan Cristobal.

Life After Skating: A Very Raw and Real Look into the Mind of a Former Athlete
https://joancristobalphotography.wo...-real-look-into-the-mind-of-a-former-athlete/

 

[Maximillian]

Charlie White shared this great blog post from 2001 U.S. Junior Ladies Champion Joan Cristobal.

Life After Skating: A Very Raw and Real Look into the Mind of a Former Athlete
https://joancristobalphotography.wo...-real-look-into-the-mind-of-a-former-athlete/

Really cool blast-from-the-past, glad to see she's moved on and is able to celebrate her success in the sport as opposed to focusing on 'what could have been...'

 

[jlai]

Sure, but one could equally argue that those skaters have already peaked at Nationals and cannot reproduce the same results again in a month.

If you look at the US's recent singles Olympic champions (Lysacek, Hughes, Lipinski), none of them did particularly well at Nationals before the Olympics. Lysacek was a distant second (21 points back) to Abbott in 2010, Hughes was 3rd in 2002 and Lipinski fell in the SP and ended up 2nd in 1998.

Also, more often than not, skaters who do better at nationals have been placing behind skaters who do less well at nationals at Four Continents.

That said, I think a poor skate at a skater's last international that season, plus a poor skate at nationals, IS a sign of problem, even if that skater does extremely well at some earlier competition. e.g. Meissner 6th at gpf in 07-8, Flatt 6th gpf at 10-11, Czisny 6th GPF at 11-12.
That opposed to some skaters who have up and down performance like M Bell last season or Max Aaron in 2015-6 (2nd at national, so so at 4cc then top 10 at worlds).

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Sure, but one could equally argue that those skaters have already peaked at Nationals and cannot reproduce the same results again in a month.

If you look at the US's recent singles Olympic champions (Lysacek, Hughes, Lipinski), none of them did particularly well at Nationals before the Olympics. Lysacek was a distant second (21 points back) to Abbott in 2010, Hughes was 3rd in 2002 and Lipinski fell in the SP and ended up 2nd in 1998.

Pint made. I had more in head Chartrand's case where it is clear she has not been back to her old competitive self. Making an error, even two is not that dramatic for me. Presenting yourself with most of your jumps cheated, that indicates me the sound technique is not there yet at this time.

 

[Willin]

@ChiquitaBanana @vesperholly We'll also have to see how Karen does. She tends to be a bit of a roller coaster. For instance - last year she did great at Nationals, then she finished 12th at 4CC (in Korea in mid-February) and then was much better at Worlds. The year before that she also had problems at 4CC - also in Asia in mid-February. So certainly she doesn't seem to do the best in Asia in February. But maybe Nationals being earlier will help?

@jlai I don't think Flatt's 10-11 GPF was a sign of anything. The reason she didn't do as well in years after that was simple: she went to Stanford and chose to focus on school as opposed to skating. She kept skating and competing because she loved it, even if school was taking up a lot of time and energy.

 

[jlai]

@ChiquitaBanana @vesperholly We'll also have to see how Karen does. She tends to be a bit of a roller coaster. For instance - last year she did great at Nationals, then she finished 12th at 4CC (in Korea in mid-February) and then was much better at Worlds. The year before that she also had problems at 4CC - also in Asia in mid-February. So certainly she doesn't seem to do the best in Asia in February. But maybe Nationals being earlier will help?

@jlai I don't think Flatt's 10-11 GPF was a sign of anything. The reason she didn't do as well in years after that was simple: she went to Stanford and chose to focus on school as opposed to skating. She kept skating and competing because she loved it, even if school was taking up a lot of time and energy.

I'm saying that skaters who have had a poor gpf and then a so so nationals should not get sent to worlds simply because of a strong earlier season. We've had numerous instances where this is an indication of trouble for the next competition. (not two years after)YMMV.

 

[aftershocks]

Charlie White shared this great blog post from 2001 U.S. Junior Ladies Champion Joan Cristobal.

Life After Skating: A Very Raw and Real Look into the Mind of a Former Athlete
https://joancristobalphotography.wo...-real-look-into-the-mind-of-a-former-athlete/

Cristobal offers some very wise words. Thanks for sharing.

What Cristobal shares about her experiences can be helpful, not just for former athletes, but for anyone having difficulty releasing from a past career and/or going through a challenging life transition.

It's rather scary hearing about the injuries Cristobal suffered. I wonder if the transition is easier for skaters who are able to have at least one other thing off the ice they enjoy doing as a respite, and if they receive some guidance and encouragement about having to eventually make a transition? It might also be somewhat different for skaters who have been able to achieve many of the goals they set for themselves in skating (like D/W and also Grant and Caroline who have getting married to look forward to; G/C have the satisfaction of knowing they persevered through tough careers with individually challenging highs and lows).

 

[Coco]

Do you think that USFSA should have sent Bradie to 4ccs to get her into the top 15 (World Standings)? As it is, she'll skate anywhere from 1st to 15th. If she was in top 15th, (top 12 was out of reach) she would skate anywhere from 16th-18th, out of 30 skaters.

 

[olympic]

Do you think that USFSA should have sent Bradie to 4ccs to get her into the top 15 (World Standings)? As it is, she'll skate anywhere from 1st to 15th. If she was in top 15th, (top 12 was out of reach) she would skate anywhere from 16th-18th, out of 30 skaters.

Mirai skated early in Vancouver in the SP and still ended up 4th. So, there is a good chance w/ a great SP that Bradie will be fine.

 

[Jarrett]

Do you think that USFSA should have sent Bradie to 4ccs to get her into the top 15 (World Standings)? As it is, she'll skate anywhere from 1st to 15th. If she was in top 15th, (top 12 was out of reach) she would skate anywhere from 16th-18th, out of 30 skaters.

I think Bradie will be fine, she just needs to be clean to make the top 10. I think the final group after the SP would be surprising but possible.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Mirai skated early in Vancouver in the SP and still ended up 4th. So, there is a good chance w/ a great SP that Bradie will be fine.

Sasha Cohen and Sarah Hughes skated early too - even earlier than Mirai did in 2010! They were in the first group IIRC. Both ended up 3rd and 4th in the SP at the end of the evening. And the 2002 Olympics was Sasha's first major Senior international - just like it will be for Bradie! Sarah had already competed, and won bronze at Worlds so she had some experience at the highest levels going into the Games. And of course, she won the Olympics! And Sasha came in 4th! Again - at her first major senior international!

As consistent as Bradie is she should have no problem scoring well in the SP.

 

[Red Hot Chili Keegan]

Sasha Cohen and Sarah Hughes skated early too - even earlier than Mirai did in 2010! They were in the first group IIRC. Both ended up 3rd and 4th in the SP at the end of the evening. And the 2002 Olympics was Sasha's first major Senior international - just like it will be for Bradie! Sarah had already competed, and won bronze at Worlds so she had some experience at the highest levels going into the Games. And of course, she won the Olympics! And Sasha came in 4th! Again - at her first major senior international!

As consistent as Bradie is she should have no problem scoring well in the SP.

This is great! After watching Bradie in San Jose with my husband, we think she has a great chance for a medal at the Olympics. Her scores are so high!

Is Courtney Hicks going to skate next year? We were sad she didn't make the Olympics. We liked her Amazing Grace program. So nice to see a Christian skater skating to Christian music.

 

[nimi]

This is great! After watching Bradie in San Jose with my husband, we think she has a great chance for a medal at the Olympics. Her scores are so high!

Is Courtney Hicks going to skate next year? We were sad she didn't make the Olympics. We liked her Amazing Grace program. So nice to see a Christian skater skating to Christian music.

I just have to ask: Is @StasiyaGalustyanLove your husband? You sound like brain twins, i.e. a perfect match!

 

[SmallFairy]

I just have to ask: Is @StasiyaGalustyanLove your husband? You sound like brain twins, i.e. a perfect match!

You spoke my mind! Or, you know, there is another option

 

[Coco]

I know in past Olympics, people have skated early in the SP and ended up placing well. But there is sooooooooo much depth now.

For the final 12 skaters, judges are conceivably going to hear high score after high score. This will subconsciously elevate the scores. I believe it is called the anchor effect. It's going to be super competitive to get into the final 6.

Although who knows, we may have a medalist come from the penultimate group if SP scores are close.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

You spoke my mind! Or, you know, there is another option

 

[olympic]

Congrats to Mariah finishing 5th at 4CCs. That was Japan's A team, so she finished well IMO. Silly falls keep her from reaching higher. Going clean would allow her to get close to 200 points.

 

[nimi]

Congrats to Mariah finishing 5th at 4CCs. That was Japan's A team, so she finished well IMO. Silly falls keep her from reaching higher. Going clean would allow her to get close to 200 points.

I've never really gotten into that FS but that messy pop aside, she did perform it well and I was impressed. Or at least semi-impressed.

She has no intention of retiring from competition, right?

I was bummed although not exactly surprised to see Angela wilt in FS. I really like her skating so I hope she'll stick around, but she's going back to college, so who knows...

Wang has already enrolled as a full-time spring semester student at the University of Colorado at Colorado Springs. A junior who is majoring in exercise science, Wang hopes to take a “pre-physical therapy route.”

She said she can see a number of futures for herself, both with and without pursuing elite-level figure skating.

“I feel like I’ve grown a lot as a skater, even in the past three or four years,” she said. “I feel like I keep making improvements. If I stop now, I feel like I wouldn’t be sad. I’d feel like I’m leaving on a good note. But if I continue, I definitely feel like I still have more to offer.”

https://www.deseretnews.com/article...-an-alternate-for-US-team-but-shell-also.html

You spoke my mind! Or, you know, there is another option

Huh? I'm stumped! Two 29-year-olds from Socorro, NM, who share a great taste in skaters and a wonderful writing style -- obviously a very harmonious couple, what another option there could possibly be?!?

I bet there's a highly entertaining backstory about how they met at some sequin studded B-comp somewhere... Who knows, maybe they will eventually share it with us! *wink wink nudge nudge*

 

[Sylvia]

Congrats to Mariah finishing 5th at 4CCs. That was Japan's A team, so she finished well IMO. Silly falls keep her from reaching higher.

Mariah Bell fell in the SP (back half of her 3Lz+3T) but not in the FS (her 1 major jump mistake was a popped loop, also had an off-balance landing/step back on her 3F in the 2nd half). The good news is that despite the very tough 4CC technical panel, Mariah got full credit for her opening 3Lz+3T and second half 2A+3T, plus had all level 4s in her spins and footwork, in her FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v71O9vNOANM
Her 122.94 in FS was just below her ISU SB at Rostelecom Cup (124.71).

 

[Vagabond]

@nimi , Bell said right after her Free Skate at Nationals that the competition had been a learning experience and that she had every intention of continuing on.

 

[nimi]

@nimi , Bell said right after her Free Skate at Nationals that the competition had been a learning experience and that she had every intention of continuing on.

Oh that's good to hear.

 

[Sylvia]

ISU Quick Quotes from the 3 U.S. ladies after their respective 4CC free skates:

Starr Andrews (112.04 is her ISU PB/SB in FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy9wrck6kGw
I felt good about the program, I made two mistakes, but I kept pushing and I kept going and I can fight for everything.
(On singing the song for her the program today herself) I sing the song because I relate more to my program and the music, so singing it helps me bring more emotion out in my performance. When I skate to the song, it feels like my moment on the ice to shine. I want people to remember me by how emotional I skate and they can feel the emotion in the program.

Angela Wang:
Not the skate I wanted, the training was definitely better than that, but it was great to get to the Championship. A lot to be learned. It was a great experience, I’m very honored to be here, and hopefully this can be a lesson for the future. For now, I am enrolled full time in university for this semester, so I’m going home and getting back into that, and just going from there. Again, this was a great stepping stone in my career, so hopefully, just be able to build on that.

Mariah Bell:
I am still learning so much this whole year and as my goal was to be in the Olympic team, I don’t think I am quite ready in this year. So I take this as an experience doing something under pressure so that I can prepare myself for the future when I am competing in the Olympics, since there is no more pressure than that. I keep learning from my new coaching team and I’ve been really enjoying my life in California and enjoy working hard. I am proud of myself although I had a few silly mistakes. I am really proud of what I did and the arena is so cool. In Taipei, I really have a good time and it’s an honor to represent Team USA and I can travel the world and do what I love. After the competition, I’ll go home and keep training but I’m really excited to give back and get working the next season. I really want to develop my skating skills and the program.

Quick Quotes after the 4CC SP:

Starr (60.61, just shy of her ISU PB): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR7t1NPeUqY
It was really fun. I think I probably could have done a better toe-toe (triple-triple combination) but I’m happy with what I put out today.
(on saving the combination) I just had to tell myself to get over to the right side and don’t go back to the left side, because you have a chance of popping it or falling. I just had to make sure I readjusted myself before I did my second triple toe. My goal is to skate my best and to place, who doesn’t want to place.
(on singing the music for her Free Skating) I sing half of the song and Whitney Houston sings the other half. I thought that if I sing it I would have more of a relation to the song. (on choosing not to go to Junior Worlds) I just kind of wanted to stick to senior. Junior Worlds is a great competition, but I just wanted to keep going to senior internationals.

Angela:
I had a mistake on the triple loop [doubled, no points] but I was really proud of what I performed. My aim at this championship is to gain experience. For the long program, I hope that I can perform what I have practicing. My love for skating will help me to overcome difficulties, and the score can show how hard I have worked in this season.

Mariah:
Overall it is ok. Although I had no problems in practice I missed the triple-triple combination (3Lz+3T) today. But this experience helps me to skate better and although I was not chosen for the Olympic team this year, I believe I will be in 2022. So this year I just keep learning from this experience.

4CC Final standings:
5 Mariah BELL USA 185.84 4 5
7 Starr ANDREWS USA 172.65 7 7 (ISU PB total score)
9 Angela WANG USA 161.04 9 11

 

[Willin]

I think Mariah's a truly lovely skater. If she can skate clean, she's certainly a contender at any event. Her problem is her tendency to not skate cleanly. I think she could be the next Ashley - not in attitude, but in being a late bloomer.

 

[clairecloutier]

I am glad that Mariah mentioned wanting to work on her skating skills. That would be a good area for her to focus on, if she's going to continue.