U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

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soogar

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What I hope they’re doing is telling their student “See, she can do it! So can you!”

The reason that no one but Miki Ando landed a quad isn’t because no one could, it’s because no one committed to doing it. They played it safe and either didn’t train it or didn’t attempt it.

Mirai was clearly interested in landing a 3A very young, in fact she personally asked Mao how to land it when Mirai was just 13. So why didn’t she have one? Because her coaches didn’t want to take the risk or the challenge.

Many coaches don’t want to take the risk. Eteri has forced all these “play it safe” coaches out of their comfort zones. I see lots of girls attempting 4S and 4T online just for fun, but not seriously. Now girls will demand that their coaches teach them 3A and quads.

Finally, we’re advancing jumps in ladies too.
Agreed, the women are committed to landing these jumps and they are going to do it. Remember how in 2010 for the men guys were just playing around with 1-2 quads per program. Then the scoring system changed and all of a sudden all quads up to the quad lutz are being done. I'm sure the axel will be next. I just hope the boot manufacturers keep up with all these technical advances.

One thing that genuinely bothers me is how vulnerable these skaters look doing these big elements. Watching Hanyu's legs crumple under him when he fell on that quad. The sport has advanced but the safety hasn't. Gymnastics has all these mats and the equipment has really changed. In snowboarding the participants wear helmets and other protective gear. Skaters are out there with just a little costume and no padding.
 

Seerek

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As much as I like Starr, I just don't see her holding up going forward-- her lutz and flip technique need some serious reworking in order to be competitive on an international level.
Yes, I have to agree with this, and it's kind of too bad, cause Starr does appear to have an innate ability to tack on a 3-toe to anything - but it's not going to matter without a reliable 3 lutz or 3 flip.

Still, I am excited for Ting Cui. It's great to see Ting be able to throw a 3-1-3 in her LP a couple of elements after missing it earlier and do 'Tano jumps left, right and center. Good musicality.
I know that Emmy and Kaitlyn had slightly more buzz in the fall, but Ting was that one that stood out me the most as far as potential during the Junior Grand Prix.
 

Sylvia

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Yes, I have to agree with this, and it's kind of too bad, cause Starr does appear to have an innate ability to tack on a 3-toe to anything - but it's not going to matter without a reliable 3 lutz or 3 flip.
Starr has landed 3F with positive GOE several times in competition this past season. It's the Lutz she is aiming to improve (entry edge).
 

Lizziebeth

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Starr has landed 3F with positive GOE several times in competition this past season. It's the Lutz she is aiming to improve (entry edge).
Starr strikes me as a very determined young lady. It would not surprise me at all if she gets that lutz and I hope she is working on it right now. I know it will be difficult but she knows what she needs to do.
 

Frida80

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Starr scares me a little. Each year she struggles with a jump and the next year she fixes it over the summer. I often make predictions and she's the one I always underestimate. I'm sick of being wrong.
 

Frida80

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Into each life, some rain must fall. :violin:
The fun part of having sources like Sylvia and skating scores is that you can track skaters and make predictions early. I got a read on most skaters early. It's why I could see that Bradie was on the rise. But during the Team event, I was so busy crunching numbers that I wasn't just enjoying just watching anymore.

It's easy to get caught up in predicting who will go far and who won't. But the truth is we don't know who will rise and who won't. Did we really see Ashley coming? Sometimes it's just more fun to let the chips fall.
 
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Tinami Amori

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Lets see Trusova land those quads at 16,17 when she actually has hips then i will be a believer. Like Frank Carroll once said girls her age and build rotate can like a bat out of hell that older ladies can't when they get older and get mature bodies.
:D there are US and Canadian girls who are 12-13-14-15 years old ... so why are they not doing 3x3's and Quads while they are light, thin and "without hips"?
 

Sylvia

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The top 5 junior ladies at U.S. Nationals (age range 12 to 15) all landed at least one successful 3-3 in their free skates (ETA), along with the top novice lady, 15.
 
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VIETgrlTerifa

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Although I get people expressing skepticism of a quad revolution in ladies due to history and what we keep hearing about puberty affecting jumps, I do think it's cool that a lady just did two quads in one LP AND I do think this will inspire more skaters to try it out. The more skaters that do it means the more likely we'll see it on the senior level...I mean they can't ALL lose their jumps once they grow. With the way people talk, they make it sound like EVERY ladies skater loses all of her triples and ability to jump once they go through puberty.

Also, can we please STOP calling it the "puberty monster"? I saw it in a few posts or something close to calling it a monster. We just need to kill that now and encourage better body images and encourage skaters that their bodies maturing can be great for their skating and jumping if they have the technique that makes it so. I mean in gymnastics, bigger and more powerful bodies have allowed gymnasts to gain new heights technically speaking. We know that some of our best ladies jumpers in history were not tiny and pencil-shaped. Why must we hold on that notion?
 
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mag

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So wasn’t there a similar reaction when women first started doing triple jumps? A lot of hand wringing about how dangerous it was for them and how difficult it would be for them to keep the jumps?

I enjoy Trusova immensely. She has nice skating skills and interpretation for a 13 year old. She seems to enjoy what she is doing and her relationship with the coach who travels with her appears to be warm and supportive. I am looking forward to seeing her programs next season.
 

Tinami Amori

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A 12 year girl at US Nationals did a clean 7 triple program with a 3-3.
Well, there you go.... and nobody is concerned about her "puberty monster".... i get it, she is American, so everything good that happens to her is "going in the right direction", and all good that happens to Russians must have something wrong with it... this attitude will eventually be very costly to your side.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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Well, there you go.... and nobody is concerned about her "puberty monster".... i get it, she is American, so everything good that happens to her is "going in the right direction", and all good that happens to Russians must have something wrong with it... this attitude will eventually be very costly to your side.
I think you bring up a solid point. Although American, from 2016-on many also said the same thing about Nathan Chen and although I felt some sentiments were sincere, I felt a lot of it was said to vent some sort of negative feeling that Chen was going to displace some preferred competitors for an Olympic spot for Pyeongchang...which happened. It happened with Vincent Zhou as well but there seemed less "concern" about his health and more criticisms of his actual skating (granted those were pretty valid to some degree).
 

giselle23

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Well, there you go.... and nobody is concerned about her "puberty monster".... i get it, she is American, so everything good that happens to her is "going in the right direction", and all good that happens to Russians must have something wrong with it... this attitude will eventually be very costly to your side.
I think people who know about her are holding back from anointing her the next Michelle Kwan. Phil Hersch hasn't jumped on her bandwagon like he did on Trusova's.
 

skateboy

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Trusova has just accomplished something extraordinary. Can't we all just be happy and enjoy it instead of being so negative about what may (or may not) happen in the future? (Especially when it is under the guise of being "concerned" for her, which I'm not buying.)

If she and other Russian ladies/girls have set the bar higher, more power to them!
 

Dr.Siouxs

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Also, can we please STOP calling it the "puberty monster"? I saw it in a few posts or something close to calling it a monster. We just need to kill that now and encourage better body images and encourage skaters that their bodies maturing can be great for their skating and jumping if they have the technique that makes it so. Why must we hold on that notion?
Many successful young skaters careers go off the rails when their bodies change...that's the reality. It has nothing to do with discouraging "body image", they simply can't land the jumps they were once easily capable of. Hence the "puberty monster", it's not meant to be denigrating.

But the solution isn't policing everyone's language on a message board, it's up to skating federations to support their seasoned athletes to continue the sport. In ladies, the most celebrated skaters have always peaked well into their 20's....Kwan, Kerrigan, Chen, Yamaguchi, Kostner, Ito, Arakawa, Rochette, Manley, Butyrskaya, Suguri, Osmond, Cohen, Slutskaya, Yu-Na, etc etc etc.
 

Coco

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VietgrlTerifa is hardly the police.

I've always hated the phrase. It sends the message that something external to you is taking over your body and wrecking it. That is not what happens.

If someone has health eating habits before puberty, and maintains them throughout, it shouldn't be the complete life destroying event that the phrase 'puberty monster' implies. Losing your physical abilities for a while doesn't mean losing them permanently.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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VietgrlTerifa is hardly the police.

I've always hated the phrase. It sends the message that something external to you is taking over your body and wrecking it. That is not what happens.

If someone has health eating habits before puberty, and maintains them throughout, it shouldn't be the complete life destroying event that the phrase 'puberty monster' implies. Losing your physical abilities for a while doesn't mean losing them permanently.
Exactly. Calling it the puberty monster implies that it's something to fear and one needs to hold off as long as possible because a pencil-shaped non-developed body is the ONLY body that can succeed in this sport. We know that's not true, but we keep perpetuating that attitude which may develop unhealthy outlooks on puberty, develop or continue disordered eating, a negative view on a woman's body, and one's ability to continue in this sport. We know young girls in this sport are vulnerable to these things and we're not helping matters by telling them that their changing bodies is something to fear and something they need to delay as far as possible. Even Michelle Kwan felt embarrassed and self-conscious during the 1996-1997 season when journalists in print media kept reporting on her changing body being the reason for her bad competitions from Nationals to Worlds (though her LP at Worlds was a redemption). It actually turned out to be a real boot issue according to Frank Carroll.
 

AxelAnnie

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VietgrlTerifa is hardly the police.

I've always hated the phrase. It sends the message that something external to you is taking over your body and wrecking it. That is not what happens.

If someone has health eating habits before puberty, and maintains them throughout, it shouldn't be the complete life destroying event that the phrase 'puberty monster' implies. Losing your physical abilities for a while doesn't mean losing them permanently.
Unless you are trying to land your jumps.
 

B.Cooper

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:D there are US and Canadian girls who are 12-13-14-15 years old ... so why are they not doing 3x3's and Quads while they are light, thin and "without hips"?

Because it's really, really, really hard! There's only even one Russian girl doing it.
Funny you posted this.... (and I mean ladies.....over age 15)....looking the OLY team ladies going back 2-3 cycles....

Ashley Wagner has intermittently had clean 3x3 combos, going as far back as 2008 ( 18 yo) , but has chosen over the years to pull the 3x3 (it has varied as to what combo she does) when it has been inconsistent. Most recently, as a 26 yo, she has used a 3x3 sequence with a loop in the sequence to link the 3's

Mirai Nagasu has utilized various 3x3s over the years, (but with issues on UR over the years), going back to her 2008 National Championship season at age 14....so not 16). Her move to Zakrajsek has helped clean up the UR on the 3x3's

Gold, as short as her SR international career has been (or is over), did have very nice 3x3 combos when she was healthy

Christina Gao used the 3Tx3T back in 2010 (16 yo)

Bradie Tennell has certainly demonstrated solid 3x3's this season (as a 20 yo)

Karen Chen has also incorporated 3x3's, but with some inconsistencies over the years.

Polina Edmunds also had nice 3x3's in her OLY season in 2014, as a 15 yo (since 2014, she had reoccurring foot injuries which prevented consistent combos)

Rachael Flatt had consistent 3x3's, going back to her first season as a Sr lady as a 14 yo (domestically 2007 US Nationals, but still not on the international circuit) And, in 2010, as a 17 yo, she had a decent 3Lz-3Lp (she posted it on a #MotivationMonday twitter post recently...I think it was from US Nationals practice session https://www.facebook.com/RachaelFlattUSA/videos/10155472808733434/


So, it isn't as if the US ladies are not doing 3x3's once they go thru puberty. It seems to be an issue of finding which 3x3 combo is consistent for each skater, and sticking with that combo. Some of the skaters train both 3T and 3Lp on the back half of combos.... but for years, few 3x3Lps were ratified at international competitions for the ladies (think Miki Ando).

Now that we see very young RUS ladies (and I use that term loosely) doing quads and multiple 3x3's....one has to wonder about longevity in the sport. (Yevgenia Medvedev announced her w/d from Worlds still dealing with foot injury) Maybe one of the reasons we have seen Wagner and Nagasu still in the sport, as they did not fully embrace 3x3 combos as a mandatory part of their repertoire until recently, and they did not deal with the nagging lower limb/foot injuries that crop up from excessive training of jumps as their bodies have matured (i.e. stress fractures). Nagasu dealt with a stress fracture in her foot back in the early part of 2010, and it took most of the summer to recover from it.

I think it isn't that the younger US girls aren't trying the 3x3's....it is a matter of sticking with the training, staying injury free, as they go thru puberty. Perhaps with Nagasu's 3A achievement, it will spur more US girls to give the harder jumps more emphasis, and to place them in the programs (not all jumps mind you) in the second half to garner the increased value. It is also about choreography/skating skills...we don't want robotic jumping beans ;-)
 

Sylvia

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Congrats to Ting CUI for landing 7 clean triples in her FS today! :) 2A+3T, Rippon 3Lz-half loop trip/fall (so no 3S), 3Lo / 3F-half loop-3S(added!), 3F+2T, 2A, 3S - all triples were solid with + GOE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMXm3VbF5A

7 Ting CUI USA 118.17 65.16 54.01 6.82 6.50 6.79 6.79 6.86 1.00 #16
Thanks to @RFOS for explaining the rule change regarding the half loop (in the 2018 Junior Worlds subforum in Kiss & Cry):
This season they changed the rule so that a half loop is only considered a listed jump when executed in combination between two listed jumps, and she [Cui] didn't get a third jump off in that intended combo. Although the 1Lo was originally called, her score went up by about 2.5 points long after the end long of the program, so I think they took it out, giving her full credit for the 3F+2T. The protocols will show for sure.
Cui's FS protocol did confirm that the technical panel did not list the 1Lo (half loop) that she fell on after landing the 3Lz (-1.80 GOE was applied to the 3Lz by the judges for her trip/fall on the unlisted half loop, along with the -1 deduction).
 
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Jayar

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I just don't understand why there are so many who believe that the Russians will be gone before we know it. Bottom line is that they win even if they are only in the spotlight for a moment. Let's examine:

2011 JW Gold medalist: Sotnikova; 2014 Olympic Gold
2012 JW Gold medalist: Yulia Lipnitskaya; 2014 Olympic Gold team plus Euros champ and World silver
2013-14 JW Gold medalist: Elena Radionova; two-time European medalist, Worlds bronze medalist
2015 JW Gold medalist: Evgenia Medvedeva; two-time World Champ, two-time Euro champ, Olympic silver x 2
2017 JW Gold medalist: Alina Zagitova; 2018 Euro, Olympic, and probable World champ

Who cares if they aren't around that long? They are winning. And they are winning more medals that the long-term Americans. Figure skating is not a marathon these days-- it seems to be more of a sprint. No matter what, if American ladies want to catch up, they've got a lot of work to do.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I do think people need to stop talking about Russians in this thread really because it is coming off as American ladies supporters being poor sports and any valid criticism of the culture of the sport that seems to disfavor long-term careers will get lost in that especially if we're only using Russian ladies as examples but not looking at our past ladies champions that also retired relatively young...like Tara Lipinski who won Worlds and OGM and then retired or Sarah Hughes who won OGM at 16 and then attempted to stay for one more season (props to her for that when she didn't have to) and then retired. Then there was Baiul who had two full seasons as a senior, won gold at 16 and then retired. Kristi had a full Olympic cycle and was relatively older but she also retired after winning OGM.

Thinking about it a bit more, honestly, in the case of Tara and Sarah, our perceptions may be different because they were able to compete on the senior level from the age of 13 on so that helped their careers on the senior level last longer than skaters nowadays. I bet Zagitova, if given the choice, would have loved to have competed as a senior last season (and probably still win Junior Worlds as some skaters were able to do back then). Same with Lipnitskaya. Med has had three full seasons as a senior as well, so she's already had quite a career on par with some past OGMs and medalists.

I think the reason why they seem more like flashes in a pan compared to champions/medalists of yesterday is because we're actually MORE used to ladies skaters having longer careers and seeing them last 2 or maybe 3, or in the case of Kostner, 4 Olympic cycles, which I think is a good thing as I think it helps our sport's image if we have adults making full careers out of it and still able to bring home serious hardware. I think we just need to get used to a lot more competition where there are more younger skaters waiting to come out of the gate and NOT wait their turn.
 

vesperholly

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Funny you posted this.... (and I mean ladies.....over age 15)....looking the OLY team ladies going back 2-3 cycles....

Ashley Wagner has intermittently had clean 3x3 combos, going as far back as 2008 ( 18 yo) , but has chosen over the years to pull the 3x3 (it has varied as to what combo she does) when it has been inconsistent. Most recently, as a 26 yo, she has used a 3x3 sequence with a loop in the sequence to link the 3's

Mirai Nagasu has utilized various 3x3s over the years, (but with issues on UR over the years), going back to her 2008 National Championship season at age 14....so not 16). Her move to Zakrajsek has helped clean up the UR on the 3x3's

Gold, as short as her SR international career has been (or is over), did have very nice 3x3 combos when she was healthy

Christina Gao used the 3Tx3T back in 2010 (16 yo)

Bradie Tennell has certainly demonstrated solid 3x3's this season (as a 20 yo)

Karen Chen has also incorporated 3x3's, but with some inconsistencies over the years.

Polina Edmunds also had nice 3x3's in her OLY season in 2014, as a 15 yo (since 2014, she had reoccurring foot injuries which prevented consistent combos)

Rachael Flatt had consistent 3x3's, going back to her first season as a Sr lady as a 14 yo (domestically 2007 US Nationals, but still not on the international circuit) And, in 2010, as a 17 yo, she had a decent 3Lz-3Lp (she posted it on a #MotivationMonday twitter post recently...I think it was from US Nationals practice session https://www.facebook.com/RachaelFlattUSA/videos/10155472808733434/


So, it isn't as if the US ladies are not doing 3x3's once they go thru puberty. It seems to be an issue of finding which 3x3 combo is consistent for each skater, and sticking with that combo. Some of the skaters train both 3T and 3Lp on the back half of combos.... but for years, few 3x3Lps were ratified at international competitions for the ladies (think Miki Ando).

Now that we see very young RUS ladies (and I use that term loosely) doing quads and multiple 3x3's....one has to wonder about longevity in the sport. (Yevgenia Medvedev announced her w/d from Worlds still dealing with foot injury) Maybe one of the reasons we have seen Wagner and Nagasu still in the sport, as they did not fully embrace 3x3 combos as a mandatory part of their repertoire until recently, and they did not deal with the nagging lower limb/foot injuries that crop up from excessive training of jumps as their bodies have matured (i.e. stress fractures). Nagasu dealt with a stress fracture in her foot back in the early part of 2010, and it took most of the summer to recover from it.

I think it isn't that the younger US girls aren't trying the 3x3's....it is a matter of sticking with the training, staying injury free, as they go thru puberty. Perhaps with Nagasu's 3A achievement, it will spur more US girls to give the harder jumps more emphasis, and to place them in the programs (not all jumps mind you) in the second half to garner the increased value. It is also about choreography/skating skills...we don't want robotic jumping beans ;-)
I meant more the quads are incredibly hard, not 3-3s. Plenty of ladies doing 3-3s.
 

Willin

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Looks like Ashley's not 100% retired yet (though it seems she'll focus on show skating). Although the article says she wants to do TV, it also says she's helping out Rafael in LA (assistant coaching maybe?) and working to expand the reach of the sport.

I'd love to see Ashley help coach skaters on performance quality. I also think she'd be great as an ambassador for the sport. Despite the social media errors, she is someone that is much more relatable than a lot of the ice princesses USFS cultivates. Recently she's also seemed like a great mentor to some of the younger skaters. Ashley also relied a lot more on independence and making herself happen (ie. moving out and cross-country at 18) than a lot of other US Ladies, so I think she'll have great ideas for determined, scrappy skaters who may not have as much money or support for their skating.
 
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