Downton Abbey Season 6 - PBS broadcast

[Coco]

She is an inconvenient woman.

Perhaps that is the overarching point Fellowes is making with her character.

 

[maatTheViking]

I also found it interesting that she didn't even comment when Robert was discussing where Mr Carson and Mrs Hughes marriage was to be held. Mary had a strong opinion, and stated it. I wondered why Edith just sat there.

I want to like her, since she really is the overlooked sister, but she is just like a limp handshake sometimes. She doesn't really stand my her conviction - like the editor, or Marigold. She keeps being wishy-washy (and hurts other people in the process). It is infuriating. The only time she really blossomed was when she was dating that old guy who left her at the alter, and Mr. Gregson. From a character development perspective, I dislike the fact that she seems to need a man to become the 'real' Edith.

 

[Erin]

She is an inconvenient woman.

Perhaps that is the overarching point Fellowes is making with her character.

If that were the case, it would be a rather amusing joke on Cora and Robert, since I remember way back in Season 1 (maybe even in the first episode), they were making some kind of joke about Edith always being around to take care of them in their old age. Maybe that will be the case, but she caused them a lot of trouble and then some in between.

 

[berthesghost]

Trapped between not only two strong sisters, but between the old world and new, Edith tends to react rather than act. She was raised to have one purpose and one purpose only, to marry well. This is the goal she pursues but as bad luck tries to derail her, her solutions to problems tends to be modern, but it's perhaps too much to ask for someone who was raised to only think of herself as someone's wife to suddenly abandone the entire life script and become a willfully independent woman.

 

[maatTheViking]

Trapped between not only two strong sisters, but between the old world and new, Edith tends to react rather than act. She was raised to have one purpose and one purpose only, to marry well. This is the goal she pursues but as bad luck tries to derail her, her solutions to problems tends to be modern, but it's perhaps too much to ask for someone who was raised to only think of herself as someone's wife to suddenly abandone the entire life script and become a willfully independent woman.

I think this is a good insight.

I also notice that Mary was not as independent compared to Sybil in the early seasons. Sybil was modern, assertive and independent because she was - regardless of whether she had met Tom or not.

Mary got the freedom to be independent as a widow, with a male heir. That gives her a lot of freedom that Edith doesn't have.

 

[IceAlisa]

Due to her social position, Edith has a lot more resources than say, Daisy. And even Daisy has tried to escape the trap and showed initiative.

 

[berthesghost]

I find them very similar. Daisy is nothing like the maid who Sybil helped learn typing and get a job outside of service. Daisy, like Edith, is a sort of wet sack whiner, almost a Debbie downer. They've been pushing her to get an education and make plans outside of DA for years now, and it apparently does take a village to raise a daisy as she's had Mrs. Patmore, Mrs Hughes, her FIL, the school teacher lady, and Mr Mosley all helping/ pushing her. Other than Tom's rather pale encouragement, Edith has no one. Even when they offered her the lady's column job, Robert and Mary were all "why on earth would you do that?!".

 

[nubka]

Anna, please go away! At this point, I can stand Batesy, but I do not want to see your sad sack face again. All this never ending agnst has made you look rather pinched, dried up and grey...

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think this is a good insight.
I also notice that Mary was not as independent compared to Sybil in the early seasons. Sybil was modern, assertive and independent because she was - regardless of whether she had met Tom or not.
Mary got the freedom to be independent as a widow, with a male heir. That gives her a lot of freedom that Edith doesn't have.

This is my impression of the 3 sisters during first few episodes in Season 1. Sybil is romantic and gentle. Mary is feisty and adventurous. Edith is a sulky mouse.
Of course, all 3 in the beginning of the series, are clearly products of the current society, and their social position, but they become very different from one another as they grow older, regardless of the fact that they live in IDENTICAL conditions and have IDENTICAL means at their disposal.

Mary, even before marriage, got into mischief much more risque than Sybil's commonly classic "princess and pauper" romance. After all, Mary is the only one who had an exotic stranger, a foreigner, a lover-to-be die on top of her, and she had to drag his body out of her "virgin" bedroom across the estate.... .. and she did not even blink...

Daisy also at times, complains! huffs-puffs! makes plans....... and does nothing. It's been 2 years(?) since she had plans to change jobs, yet done nothing. Has she send out letters and had no offers, that's one thing. But she has not even tried, and refused her father-in-law to work with him on the farm. So she is still a servant, rightfully so.

 

[sk8girl]

... regardless of the fact that they live in IDENTICAL conditions and have IDENTICAL means at their disposal.

In theory, yes, but in practice, I'm not so sure. Even in season 1, Edith was portrayed as the less pretty less eligible sister, and I don't remember the exact quote, but I remember a conversation very early on with either Robert or Cora commenting that poor Edith doesn't have nearly the opportunities that Mary has. I remember thinking "ouch, even her own parents see her as less worthy than Mary!!"

Not to mention that she had to grow up with an unsupportive stuck-up b**** like Mary as a sister. Sorry, but I'm rooting for a happy ending for Edith and a not-so-happy one for Mary

(I will admit that Mary has been supportive to Anna, though.)

 

[nubka]

Mary, even before marriage, got into mischief much more risque than Sybil's commonly classic "princess and pauper" romance. After all, Mary is the only one who had an exotic stranger, a foreigner, a lover-to-be die on top of her, and she had to drag his body out of her "virgin" bedroom across the estate.... .. and she did not even blink...

Was Mr. Pamuk only a lover-to-be? I always had the impression that Mary did loose her virginity that night.

 

[IceAlisa]

Was Mr. Pamuk only a lover-to-be? I always had the impression that Mary did loose her virginity that night.

Did they? Or didn't they? I don't quite recall. I don't think they got that far but my memory isn't great.

 

[floskate]

Did they? Or didn't they? I don't quite recall. I don't think they got that far but my memory isn't great.

Mr Pamuk, when making his final advances way back in series 1 assured Mary she would still be a virgin on her wedding night and they just needed to use some imagination - or something like that

 

[Artemis@BC]

Was Mr. Pamuk only a lover-to-be? I always had the impression that Mary did loose her virginity that night.

Did they? Or didn't they? I don't quite recall. I don't think they got that far but my memory isn't great.

I'm pretty sure they did get as far as virginity loss -- if only just. I don't think Mary would have felt quite the same obligation to tell Matthew everything, and worry that he'd leave her because of it, if it had only been an "almost."

 

[Artemis@BC]

Mr Pamuk, when making his final advances way back in series 1 assured Mary she would still be a virgin on her wedding night and they just needed to use some imagination - or something like that

Oh right, I'd forgotten about that. Hmm ...

 

[Tinami Amori]

In theory, yes, but in practice, I'm not so sure. Even in season 1, Edith was portrayed as the less pretty less eligible sister, and I don't remember the exact quote, but I remember a conversation very early on with either Robert or Cora commenting that poor Edith doesn't have nearly the opportunities that Mary has. I remember thinking "ouch, even her own parents see her as less worthy than Mary!!"

Oh, I do not buy the “Plane Jane” excuse….. A woman may attract less men if she is plane, but she can make the best of her looks and! nobody is stopping her from advancing in other areas, and once she advances in other areas, men usually do flock…

I know Edith is a fictional character and we’re talking as if she is real. But just for the record.

Some most misfortunate and unattractive women became objects of admiration of many men and millions of people, because they had talent, charm, personality, drive and made an effort to look attractive.

Edith Piaf - http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02700/Edith-Piaf_2700431k.jpg
Coco Channel - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Coco_Chanel,_1920.jpg
Janis Joplin - http://www.virginmedia.com/images/died-janis-joplin-590x350.jpg
Lady Gaga - http://cdn.acidcow.com/pics/20100329/young_lady_gaga_42.jpg

Madonna was a creepy little thing in early 1980’s……
http://41.media.tumblr.com/e2f97d1df9aff2f41a0a7b024c5e79a1/tumblr_nvv8k4ezCS1rkef0xo7_400.jpg
I saw her at NY Peppermint Lounge 1982, she was pinching smokes and others’ drinks while people were dancing…. And look at her now..
http://stardomreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Madonna.jpg
and her “downton abbey”….. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7635/16258159224_28ba7f2876_c.jpg
Etc….

If Edith is “less pretty” then she still makes no effort to compensate, or to maximize what she’s got.
The actress who is playing Edith is HOT!!!! Laura Carmichael.
http://a5.files.imabeautygeek.com/i...r_1.0,q_80,w_620/MTI3NjU2OTY4NjkyMTgxNjM1.jpg
http://www.thenewpotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/laura-carmichael-edith-crawley.jpg?d01037

Not to mention that she had to grow up with an unsupportive stuck-up b**** like Mary as a sister. Sorry, but I'm rooting for a happy ending for Edith and a not-so-happy one for Mary. (I will admit that Mary has been supportive to Anna, though.)

Mary and Edith are adults. Mary maybe critical of Edith because she had to deal with Edith’s sulking all her life, and is tired of “poor me” attitude. Mary from season to season is proving to have integrity, compassion, flexibility, and various skills which help the estate. This rich girl is not too stuck up to get her hands dirty and to jump in with pigs into the dirt, figuratively and literary.

As to the “ending”, I “think” the ending for all will be so sweet that we’ll need a lemon.

Was Mr. Pamukonly a lover-to-be? I always had the impression that Marydid loose her virginity that night.

Hard to say. My recollection is that Pamuk crocked on top of Mary just as he “started it”.

 

[danceronice]

Not that pigs should preclude people from making important life decisions, but just for the record:

Pigs are pets, very intelligent animals, and form just as strong of attachments as dogs and cats. They are under-rated and under-studied, but that's changing.
http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/US/HT_Wilbur_Florida_family_pet_pig_7_MT_140715_4x3_992.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polop...gen/derivatives/article_970/pigs23n-4-web.jpg

(if the animals were goats or cows, i would not have mentioned the animal attachment part).

Which is silly, as goats can make excellent pets. I have two to keep the horse company. They are definitely people-oriented, much like my indoor pet, an ex-market duck who's actually up there with some parrot species I've had on an interactive level. Plus she lays, making her the only rent-paying pet and justifying her not having gone where the chickens and turkey I got the same year went (the processor; broad-breasted whites and Cornish x Rocks mature fast and don't live very long so there's not much point in not processing them.) My point, despite people stupidly keeping large badly-tempered animals as inappropriate pets (you know what they call pot-bellies in Vietnam? Dinner. They're food animals too. Actually, my neighbors had a pet one for a while, then they ate it. It was a nasty little biting thing) is that these pigs are dead in under a year anyway. They aren't going to form attachments and even if they were they'd just be dead shortly anyway. The only purpose pigs serve as livestock is for eating. They don't give milk, they can't be used as draft animals, they don't produce fleece. Basically, they convert fodder and scraps (including carrion and human bodies, if they have the chance; they're omnivores) into meat. The only reason for an estate to raise them is for food. So even if the pigs cared one way or another if the human feeding them changed (they won't, most well-adjusted livestock does not even when they are kept as pets) they'd be slaughtered too soon for any sane person to take it into consideration.

 

[danceronice]

if i thought i was adopting a baby forever and someone came and took it back, i would mourn it even if i didnt have it for years and even if i had other children. i think it would be strange not to. and edith did this to someone twice.

But to the point of emotional instability? I mean, it's not like she doesn't have other children and Marigold was her only chance. Why fixate to the point of irrational, borderline-criminal behavior? Sad is one thing, Annie-from-Misery is going a bit far.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Which is silly, as goats can make excellent pets. I have two to keep the horse company. They are definitely people-oriented, much like my indoor pet, an ex-market duck who's actually up there with some parrot species I've had on an interactive level. Plus she lays, making her the only rent-paying pet and justifying her not having gone where the chickens and turkey I got the same year went (the processor; broad-breasted whites and Cornish x Rocks mature fast and don't live very long so there's not much point in not processing them.)

The more animals are considered in human life the better. If goats are pets, i am all for it.

 

[my little pony]

i fail to see how having spare children makes it ok to lose one

is she unstable? maybe but i never thought i had a kid and lost it. then to see it out and not being properly supervised in her opinion, she lost it. i agree the writing is clunky and overwrought. but i think it makes more sense that she is feeling the loss.

 

[Coco]

I agree with mlp on this one, even though I called Mrs. Drewe a psycho

At this time, people had NO OUTLETS for their despair, grief, etc. except those opportunities provided by the community. And this loss for Mrs. Drewe was a private loss. They could never announce they had a new daughter, and couldn't announce they had lost their daughter.

So in that context, her losing it makes sense.

And being caught in bed with Pamuk was enough to make Mary damaged goods regardless of how far they went and regardless of any issues of consent. I think the script left a little bit to the imagination, although from Mary's description of Pamuk's death, it sounds like he reached climax. From another board:

In the Downton scripts Julian Fellowes said that Pamuk was supposed to say with a little imagination... a vial of blood hidden beneath your pillow, but this was cut.

 

[nubka]

I'm pretty sure they did get as far as virginity loss -- if only just. I don't think Mary would have felt quite the same obligation to tell Matthew everything, and worry that he'd leave her because of it, if it had only been an "almost."

That's the impression that I always had, too.

 

[IceAlisa]

I think the script left a little bit to the imagination, although from Mary's description of Pamuk's death, it sounds like he reached climax.

Not to get overly technical but did Mary ever worry about a pregnancy?

 

[Coco]

That wasn't shown or addressed, iirc.

 

[Japanfan]

Actually, my neighbors had a pet one for a while, then they ate it. It was a nasty little biting thing) is that these pigs are dead in under a year anyway. They aren't going to form attachments and even if they were they'd just be dead shortly anyway. The only purpose pigs serve as livestock is for eating. They don't give milk, they can't be used as draft animals, they don't produce fleece. Basically, they convert fodder and scraps (including carrion and human bodies, if they have the chance; they're omnivores) into meat. The only reason for an estate to raise them is for food. So even if the pigs cared one way or another if the human feeding them changed (they won't, most well-adjusted livestock does not even when they are kept as pets) they'd be slaughtered too soon for any sane person to take it into consideration.

But people do keep pigs as pets, and pigs do form attachments.

The folks we got Bandit (my avatar here) from had a small pet pig named Olivia and I followed them on Facebook just because the Olivia stories were so funny. She was always getting into trouble, like raiding the pumpkin patch, and a video of her eating a tootsie roll is one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Pigs aren't attractive or cute the way others animals are, but it is entirely possible for the human-pig bond to grow.

 

[vesperholly]

Daisy also at times, complains! huffs-puffs! makes plans....... and does nothing. It's been 2 years(?) since she had plans to change jobs, yet done nothing. Has she send out letters and had no offers, that's one thing. But she has not even tried, and refused her father-in-law to work with him on the farm. So she is still a servant, rightfully so.

It is in these kinds of scenarios that I can see the hand of god aka Julian Fellowes. When characters make out-of-character decisions or take actions (or lack there of) that make zero sense for their personality and times, all I can think is "creator's machinations". Why hasn't Daisy left service years ago? Because Fellowes and/or actress wanted to stay on the show. Downton continues to employ a suicidal gay underbutler, a convicted-then-exonerated valet and a thieving ladies maid who served 3 years in prison, all of whom would have been summarily sacked in the early 1920s. But the actors are "in favor" or something, so they stay on in the face of ludicrous situations. He's playing them like they're dolls in a dollhouse, but the stories don't work when you transpose them onto real human actors.

 

[skatingfan5]

But the actors are "in favor" or something, so they stay on in the face of ludicrous situations. He's playing them like they're dolls in a dollhouse, but the stories don't work when you transpose them onto real human actors.

Guess my standards/expectations for DA are low enough, that they work well enough for me. I watch DA for an hour of enjoyable escape, not an exacting lesson in social history or psychology or even a drama of the highest literary merit. It's essentially a period soap opera with lovely costumes, sets, and actors who can deliver their lines at a convincing enough level. My expectations are met more than enough for me to keep watching -- if they were not, I would no longer be following the series. At least little George, Sibbie, and Marigold aren't subject to SORAS! I have abandoned many a series in my time, but I am with Downton until its fast approaching end.

 

[cygnus]

It is in these kinds of scenarios that I can see the hand of god aka Julian Fellowes. When characters make out-of-character decisions or take actions (or lack there of) that make zero sense for their personality and times, all I can think is "creator's machinations". Why hasn't Daisy left service years ago? Because Fellowes and/or actress wanted to stay on the show. Downton continues to employ a suicidal gay underbutler, a convicted-then-exonerated valet and a thieving ladies maid who served 3 years in prison, all of whom would have been summarily sacked in the early 1920s. But the actors are "in favor" or something, so they stay on in the face of ludicrous situations. He's playing them like they're dolls in a dollhouse, but the stories don't work when you transpose them onto real human actors.

Except that there are many people like Daisy who want to move on, do some things to make it happen- send a few resumes,take a course or two, and than don't follow through. It happens all the time- maybe more often than not, as people get comfortable where they are, have fears of the unknown, don't want to leave people they have become attached to. It's probably as common- as those who follow through. Dreams are easier than action. I have known many such people- I have BEEN that person at times, and so have most of us.

As for keeping on servants with "pasts"- while that is exaggerated for the sake of the show, of course- an ever changing cast of servants with problems who appear fro an episode or two and then disappear would not work dramatically at all. But historically plenty of houses had gay servants (the Queen Mum had many over the years, and it wasn't an issue), and the problem of finding servants in the 1920s has been discussed in the show- you had to "make do"- perfect people were hard to find, particularly those who wanted to be in service.

 

[topaz]

i disagree with the IceAlisa's and other's view of Edith. I think many are putting modern feelings and opportunities on a Edwardian aristocract. Edith made a decision(pressured) to give the baby up when it was NEVER what she truly wanted. She thought she could live with seeing her daughter with another family and she couldn't. I'm sorry I'm not from the school "that because I made a mistake and misjudged my feelings that I should just accept it I'll be miserable for the rest for my life". Edith loved Mr Gregson and the child is a love child for her.

She's still struggling with the decision to share all with her family(mary in particular) and being an outcast as a single mother. I have a feeling that Edith is going to go public with Marigold, live in the flat in London as a single mother.

 

[skatesindreams]

i disagree with the IceAlisa's and other's view of Edith. I think many are putting modern feelings and opportunities on a Edwardian aristocract. Edith made a decision(pressured) to give the baby up when it was NEVER what she truly wanted. She thought she could live with seeing her daughter with another family and she couldn't. I'm sorry I'm not from the school "that because I made a mistake and misjudged my feelings that I should just accept it I'll be miserable for the rest for my life". Edith loved Mr Gregson and the child is a love child for her.

She's still struggling with the decision to share all with her family(mary in particular) and being an outcast as a single mother.

I agree.