Decisions of the ISU Council: Stockholm Worlds (March 22-28) still on; Synchro Worlds cancelled; 2021 Grand Prix schedule/Beijing test event announced

MsZem

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All I am pointing out is that they were improving 2 spots each time worlds was held so it's not unlikely they reasonably believed they had a shot at top 20 therefore having a reason to believe they got screwed by a false positive test. So yeah, I think they got screwed by a false positive. I won't lose any sleep over it but I have a lot of sympathy for them and the sleep they are losing over this.
I'm curious how we know that it's a false positive, rather than the second test being a false negative.

Anyway, of course they're more invested in this than we are, and it sucks to have your season end like this. But I just don't see how results from several years ago tell us much about how they'd have done here - and their more recent record suggests that they would have had to qualify a spot at Nebelhorn. Which they still can :)

Not everything on this board has to be a debate.
But that's boring.
 

Kateri

void beast
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I'm curious how we know that it's a false positive, rather than the second test being a false negative.
From what I heard, if these are the tests I think they are, false positive are relatively common, but false negatives are comparatively rare. (Assuming the YKW is detectable at that stage of infection, I assume. Which could be a complicating factor.)
 

marbri

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I'm curious how we know that it's a false positive, rather than the second test being a false negative.

Anyway, of course they're more invested in this than we are, and it sucks to have your season end like this. But I just don't see how results from several years ago tell us much about how they'd have done here - and their more recent record suggests that they would have had to qualify a spot at Nebelhorn. Which they still can :)


But that's boring.
I am assuming that based on the fact he tested negative in Canada before leaving as did his partner. His partner tested negative in Sweden, he didn't on the first test. But he tested negative on the second and third test he requested in Sweden so I am assuming they are correct in stating it was a false positive. According to this article I think he is saying that the first test had a threshold of 19.7 whereas for a real positive the threshold should be 23.8-33.2 which should have triggered an immediate retesting instead of 24 hours later. (fwiw I don't know the science here, so taking this at face value)

https://www.journaldequebec.com/202...VPaPuf4WS8BjBknzWZqfMAU2zpyHRZi84SfS55J3pdQ-g

I mean I don't know that anything can be done but I do think they have a reasonable gripe here. They had a much better chance of qualifying by placing top 20 at Worlds then they will in the bloodbath that will be Neblehorn. I suspect if this happened to someone like Keegan Messing or Guignard/Fabbri or Hubbel/Donahue there would be petitions started already for them (randomly picked them as I think their placement affects the number of spots that country would have got had they been removed for a false positive). I just feel for them. Regardless of your standing in the ranks all these skaters put in the same blood, sweat and tears to make their dreams come true and it has to be a real bitter pill to swallow to have it taken away like that :(
 

allezfred

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I am assuming that based on the fact he tested negative in Canada before leaving as did his partner. His partner tested negative in Sweden, he didn't on the first test.
He would have tested negative on his first test in Sweden or else he wouldn’t have been allowed into the bubble. The positive came on a subsequent test is my understanding.
 

Lemonade20

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He would have tested negative on his first test in Sweden or else he wouldn’t have been allowed into the bubble. The positive came on a subsequent test is my understanding.
How would they be able to test "positive" if they were already there? Is it not a true bubble? Sad, but griping about it won't solve anything.
 

MsZem

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I just feel for them. Regardless of your standing in the ranks all these skaters put in the same blood, sweat and tears to make their dreams come true and it has to be a real bitter pill to swallow to have it taken away like that :(
I feel for them too, and can't imagine how disappointing this must have been.

I just don't think they have a very strong case given the health protocols for the event, and they're probably not helping themselves with that video.
 

Lil Sarah

Active Member
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How would they be able to test "positive" if they were already there? Is it not a true bubble? Sad, but griping about it won't solve anything.
Scenario 1: it’s a false positive (in which case horrible timing)

Scenario 2: he was in contact with someone Positive prior to leaving for the competition and it took that long for the viral load to be high enough to test positive. That’s why there were subsequent tests being done.

Example: my dad was in contact with a ********* + person; he was tested (the earliest available date) - 7 days later. He was positive but my Mom was not positive yet. Public Heqlth required her to get re-tested a number of days later, she was then positive
 

misskarne

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A press release was posted in the thread on GS which includes the below timeline:

Friday March 26, 2021: Simon and Tina are scheduled to compete at 1:00pm CEST. At 6:30am CEST Simon is told by competition officials that he has tested POSITIVE for *********. Tina receives a NEGATIVE test result. Simon requests an immediate re-test, and is told by officials that they will push for the results to be returned before they are scheduled to compete. It is announced that Tina and Simon have withdrawn from competition due to health reasons. Tina and Simon did not withdraw from competition. Results do not arrive until 8:30pm CEST. Simon is told the results are POSITIVE. Medical documentation does not support this, and shows the test result was actually NEGATIVE.
If I read this aright, the re-test results did not arrive before the SD anyway.

So basically, the Armenians are saying the ISU should have let them compete with a positive test result, when they did not know if it was a false positive or a real positive. The Armenians are saying that the ISU should have disregarded the health risks and let them compete with a positive test. That the ISU had to forcibly withdraw the Armenians because they would not have voluntarily withdrawn with a positive test.

Yes, it sucks that the re-test did not arrive in time, but this timeline does nothing to increase my sympathy for this team - if anything, it diminishes it and makes them look even worse.

You have an opportunity to get a spot at Nebelhorn if you're good enough, Armenians. Off you go.
 

MsZem

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If I read this aright, the re-test results did not arrive before the SD anyway.

So basically, the Armenians are saying the ISU should have let them compete with a positive test result, when they did not know if it was a false positive or a real positive. The Armenians are saying that the ISU should have disregarded the health risks and let them compete with a positive test. That the ISU had to forcibly withdraw the Armenians because they would not have voluntarily withdrawn with a positive test.

Yes, it sucks that the re-test did not arrive in time, but this timeline does nothing to increase my sympathy for this team - if anything, it diminishes it and makes them look even worse.
This is the sticking point for me, too - the health protocol was clearly positive test = you're out. For them to have expected to be allowed to compete following a positive test is either ignorant or callously indifferent to the health of others. Even if there had been a negative test result in time, that's two contradictory results at an event that was already dealing with considerable risk. People were trying their best to make it work, and that meant following protocols.

So yes, it does indeed suck for the Armenians. Absolutely. Just as it sucked for Bobrova to get caught up in the meldonium business before 2016 Worlds only to be cleared to compete shortly after, or for Stepanova and Bukin not to be allowed to go to the 2018 Olympics even though they've never faced any suspension that I'm aware of. It's okay to be upset, but G/P-S should deal with it and move on.
 

marbri

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A press release was posted in the thread on GS which includes the below timeline:


If I read this aright, the re-test results did not arrive before the SD anyway.

So basically, the Armenians are saying the ISU should have let them compete with a positive test result, when they did not know if it was a false positive or a real positive. The Armenians are saying that the ISU should have disregarded the health risks and let them compete with a positive test. That the ISU had to forcibly withdraw the Armenians because they would not have voluntarily withdrawn with a positive test.

Yes, it sucks that the re-test did not arrive in time, but this timeline does nothing to increase my sympathy for this team - if anything, it diminishes it and makes them look even worse.

You have an opportunity to get a spot at Nebelhorn if you're good enough, Armenians. Off you go.
My god that is disgustingly dismissive. They have every right to ask for an investigation. And every skating fan should want one as well because I can just imagine the 180 people like you will be making next season if this situation happens to a skater you give a shit about....
 

Lemonade20

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My god that is disgustingly dismissive. They have every right to ask for an investigation. And every skating fan should want one as well because I can just imagine the 180 people like you will be making next season if this situation happens to a skater you give a shit about....
Now I understand what happened. It's unfortunate, but the chance is too risky if they were actually positive.
 

marbri

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:lol: Now I am being compared to a Fanyu? Because I think its worth "investigating" and learning from it. Hell even help the team in question come to peace with it if the findings are not in their favour. Good to know, I was set to speak with Interpol after the holidays but won't bother now.
 

mpal2

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Someone correct me if I'm misunderstanding this but the complaint is that the ISU would have rushed a 2nd test for a powerful federation. So this is just an assumption that couldn't be proven unless a team or skater from a powerful federation also had a false positive test and was still able to compete after a rushed 2nd test.

I'm just not sure what there is to investigate even if the above complaint is true because the scenario never actually happened that would prove it to be true.
 

Dave of the North

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Can a PCR test be turned around in less than 6 hours? I know the antigen test takes about 15 minutes, but is not as accurate.
 

Sonata

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I feel really bad for them, to have travelled all the way there, get a false positive and then likely have to get back and quarantine for 14 days. We can speculate on their placement, but they did not get the opportunity to try. I agree that once the false positive came in, the organizers' hands were somewhat tied. But there's many points that could be clarified or reviewed before any other upcoming competitions.

1-Why did someone verbally tell them their second test was positive and not back this up with the documented evidence they requested? Were they lied to to avoid them contesting right before the SD, or was this is an honest mistake? I'm going to go with honest mistake, in which case, how do organizers avoid this from happening again?
2-What's the point of doing a second test the day of the competition if you get a false positive? If it had come back clearly negative, would they truly have been allowed to skate?
3-How many negative tests were acceptable to allow them to skate after one false positive? Is there a protocol around this? If a negative test is required the day of the competition, is there some kind of way to get the result earlier in the day?
4-If one positive test was enough despite subsequent negative tests to not allow them to compete, how many negatives must be obtained before they are allowed to fly out of the country?

This also makes me wonder what's happened to Safonova. Has she been re-tested?
 

kwanfan1818

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I read it as investigate why it took so long to get/reveal the results and why he was given the wrong results of the second test. Do they think the ISU had the real results early enough to let them skate, but didn't want to risk letting them skate, even if the number of false negatives is far lower than the number of false positives?
 

Sonata

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I read it as investigate why it took so long to get/reveal the results and why he was given the wrong results of the second test. Do they think the ISU had the real results early enough to let them skate, but didn't want to risk letting them skate, even if the number of false negatives is far lower than the number of false positives?
It doesn’t look good - I can’t imagine how it feels to be told you got two positive tests and then you’re thinking you have ********* and wondering who you may have given it to, to finding out that’s not true. “Best” case scenario is that it was an honest mistake with no ill intent. Still begs the question of how this happened and should trigger a review of protocols.
 

aka_gerbil

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Can a PCR test be turned around in less than 6 hours? I know the antigen test takes about 15 minutes, but is not as accurate.
Probably not likely unless they were literally sitting in a lab. Collect sample, process and set up the run, and then qPCR runs take a few hours. Then you have to analyze the data.

I don’t think this is any conspiracy and I’m not sure what anyone thinks the ISU could have or should have done differently. There is no molecular biology assay that is infallible. False positives are a lot more rare than false negatives, so if you get a positive test, you go with it.
 

MsZem

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It doesn’t look good - I can’t imagine how it feels to be told you got two positive tests and then you’re thinking you have ********* and wondering who you may have given it to, to finding out that’s not true. “Best” case scenario is that it was an honest mistake with no ill intent. Still begs the question of how this happened and should trigger a review of protocols.
Occam's razor - the best case scenario is by far the most plausible. The alternative is someone setting out to deliberately sabotage the Armenians, and honestly how exactly does one arrange for a false positive CV test in a foreign country, and why would anyone even bother?
 

Lemonade20

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Occam's razor - the best case scenario is by far the most plausible. The alternative is someone setting out to deliberately sabotage the Armenians, and honestly how exactly does one arrange for a false positive CV test in a foreign country, and why would anyone even bother?
Agreed, and they're not even a major contender for the title too. There can only be one Tonya Harding!
 

Barbara Manatee

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It does suck that they missed the competition, but they need to get a grip. It's a *********, not a personal injustice. Go ahead and complain to your friends about how hard you worked and how unfair it is, but c'mon. Everyone in the world has lost out on important things due to no fault of their own.
 

Carolla5501

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So this couple is reallys believe that they were so good that they were a threat to some other team to ISU cares more about getting an Olympic spot. Really?

Well I guess since your on that podium every every time you’ve completed recently you are a threat to the other teams. Oh wait, you finshed where at 2019 worlds? Hmmmm.


No they’re not entitled to a investigation. It was a false positive but it happens. It was not some kind of scandal to keep this couple out. If that been the case they tested him positive first time they showed up and just give them a second positive report after that. The fact that they didn’t pretty much tells me this was not a campaign like to keep this couple out because they were such a threat to the Russians or the Americans or the Canadians ot the French or basically anyone. LOL

The cynic in me actually thinks that they figured out that we might not make the Olympics on our ice-skating quality but we’re going to use this to force our way into the games.

The more they talk the bigger the hole they dig for themselves. So When they go to Neblehorn and then make the smallest mistake judges will remember “oh that’s the trouble making pair - increase negative score.” Ice dancing is all about politics and this couple is missing politicking 101. they’re trying the Donald Trump method, didn’t work for him and it isn’t going to work for them
 

tony

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I see zero chance at the ISU just handing them a spot, no matter if this goes to court. I don't know if that's what they want out of it, but it's not happening.

It's a really unfortunate situation, and I am sure they felt like they had improved quite a bit and had a great shot at qualifying the Olympic spot. They still have an opportunity to do so, and honestly, if they were that confident that it would happen at Worlds, they now have very few other teams to compete with at Nebelhorn. ITA and GBR have additional teams they can send, but the Italians didn't even made the FD. Almost all other countries aside from GEO have teams that already tried at Worlds and failed to earn a spot.

And I think the more they continue to try to throw this into the spotlight as a personal vendetta, the higher chance at the judging and technical panel making sure they get everything right rather than maybe feeling sorry for the situation with +++-happy fingers. Not that it shouldn't be like this to begin with..
 

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