2019-20 Canadian Men news & updates

[Marco]

That's a horrible thing to say.

 

[cheremary]

Michael Slipchuk's explanation.
Is he bashing all non-Canadian Patrick men here? Or is he saying they were only choosing one non-Patrick man?

I took it to mean that they were only choosing one non-Patrick man, since it directly equates to choosing only one man this year. It was obvious in those past years that one of the two choices would be Patrick.

Slightly confusing phrasing, but the other interpretation would simply be too un-Canadian.

 

[greenapple]

That is a realistic statement by Slipchuk. No other Canadian man won a medal of any color during that decade but they knew they could pretty much always count on Patrick to come through. The last time two Canadian men medaled at Worlds was in 1993 - Kurt and Elvis - so there is a long history.

 

[Colonel Green]

That is a realistic statement by Slipchuk. No other Canadian man won a medal of any color during that decade but they knew they could pretty much always count on Patrick to come through.

Forget medals, top ten placements were pretty rare in that period. If you look at the years after Buttle left, the next-highest placements:

2009 - Chipeur, 12th (now that was an agonizing one, one ordinal higher = 3 men in Vancouver)
2010 - Reynolds, 11th
2011 - Reynolds, 20th; Russell, 24th
2012 - Reynolds, 12th
2013 - Reynolds, 5th ; Rogozine, 13th
2014 - [Chan-less] Reynolds, 11th; Nguyen, 12th; Baldé, 18th
2015 - [Chan-less] Nguyen, 5th; Ten, 22nd
2016 - Nguyen, 27th
2017 - Reynolds, 9th (one ordinal higher = 3 men in Pyeongchang)

 

[dramagrrl]

I think Slipchuk obviously meant that every year Patrick was competing (from his first senior title onwards), one of the men sent to Worlds was going to be Patrick, so the years that they didn't have three slots, there was essentially only one open slot left. Perhaps not the most politically correct thing to say (since everyone should have an equal chance, what if Patrick had self-destructed at some point, blah blah), but it was clearly realistic/true.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Wow, that quote from Michael Slipchuck was a bit of a bumbling back hander.

I remember the year Slipchuck won the Canadian title, his team mates, Kurt Browning and Elvis Stojko were on the podium at the World Championships.

The first year Patrick Chan won the National Men's Title, Jeff Buttle took the World Title.

If David Dore were still in charge, none of them would be going. He was all about bringing home medals above all else.

 

[Sonata]

I don’t think Slipchuk’s analogy is quite up to par. It’s quite different to know Canada is almost guaranteed two spots no matter who you pick as the second male skater to accompany Chan vs only sending one male skater who may carry the weight of increasing the number of spots for next year.

Personally, I’m glad David Dore is not in charge though.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Personally, I’m glad David Dore is not in charge though.

If Browning's and Manley's autobiographies are anything to go by, Dore sounded like a scary tyrant.

 

[haribobo]

Going by SB scores, 2 USA, 3 JPN, 2 CHN, 2 RUS, 1 FRA are expected to slot ahead of Roman, which would put him 11th. Will be interesting to watch Euros and 4CC to see how this lines up.

 

[screech]

Going by SB scores, 2 USA, 3 JPN, 2 CHN, 2 RUS, 1 FRA are expected to slot ahead of Roman, which would put him 11th. Will be interesting to watch Euros and 4CC to see how this lines up.

Not to sound negative, but I'd actually be pretty impressed if Roman managed 11th, and I think he would be too (if there weren't Worlds spots on the line).
Nam and Keegan have shown they are top-ten capable, but that's depending on how everyone skates. Roman's results will depend on if he gets dinged for underrotations.

 

[Colonel Green]

In a discipline as volatile as men's, season's best scores are of course an unreliable means of determining placement - it's far from evident that, e.g., Jason Brown or Keiji Tanaka would replicate (or even come close) to their season's best, based on how their events have been going this season to date, in particular.

 

[Dobre]

Or--cough--Aliev. Or for that matter Hanyu.

So many men. So much distance between their best scores & their worst.

But at Worlds, you go in assuming you will need to be your absolute best. Because everyone will be out to peak at the same time there.

Nam and Keegan have shown they are top-ten capable, but that's depending on how everyone skates.

And people so did not skate well at those two World Championships.

Anyway, Nam & Keegan also both proved they could finish outside the top 12 last year. I think if Roman goes out and skates solid at 4CCs he will make a great argument for himself as a competitor regardless if he is selected to Worlds. (Though also, often, the key to success in the men's event is to dial yourself right back in after a mistake and remember it's not over until it's over).

 

[Tavi]

In a discipline as volatile as men's, season's best scores are of course an unreliable means of determining placement - it's far from evident that, e.g., Jason Brown or Keiji Tanaka would replicate (or even come close) to their season's best, based on how their events have been going this season to date, in particular.

I mean sure, Keiji, Jason, or both, could tank, but they could also improve. See, eg, Shoma.

 

[victorskid]

I thought SK always sent the sr Champ to Worlds and it is only the additional spots that are under debate?

The criteria for selection make it clear that it is not just winning nationals that is considered.

 

[Colonel Green]

I mean sure, Keiji, Jason, or both, could tank, but they could also improve. See, eg, Shoma.

Absolutely, my point was just that compared to something like ice dance, just stacking people by their season's best is not especially revealing. There's a cluster of guys who are very likely to finish top 5, then there's a bunch of people who could be sixth or sixteenth depending on the day; Roman is in that latter camp.

 

[Dobre]

then there's a bunch of people who could be sixth or sixteenth depending on the day; Roman is in that latter camp.

Ah, the optimism. If Boyang, Nam, Han Yan, and last year's Grand Prix Final bronze medalist can get below sixteenth, Roman too has the potential. It's absolutely amazing what can be achieved in different events in the men's competition.

 

[Colonel Green]

Ah, the optimism. If Boyang, Nam, Han Yan, and last year's Grand Prix Final bronze medalist can get below sixteenth, Roman too has the potential. It's absolutely amazing what can be achieved in different events in the men's competition.

I fully believe in Roman's ability to miss the free skate.

 

[Japanfan]

As much as I think Keegan or Nam would likely get better results at Worlds, there is no denying that Roman absolutely earned that spot. His win was by a huge margin and 100% deserved. And he medalled on the GP circuit this season, whereas Keegan did not.

I personally don't think that Keegan plans on continuing through to 2022, so it makes sense to give Roman the opportunity to have this experience over him. Yes, it will be an insane amount of pressure, and Roman might not get us 2 spots for next year, but Nam hasn't been that dependable at Worlds in the past either.

I'm not at all convinced that Keegan or Nam would likely get better results at Worlds, especially given how they skated at Nationals. Roman has never been a GP medalist and national champion before, and I think he deserves a chance. What his GP medal gave him was confidence. It showed at Nats, and will hopefully show again at Worlds.

 

[Colonel Green]

I'm not at all convinced that Keegan or Nam would likely get better results at Worlds, especially given how they skated at Nationals. Roman has never been a GP medalist and national champion before, and I think he deserves a chance. What his GP medal gave him was confidence. It showed at Nats, and will hopefully show again at Worlds.

We will hopefully see it at 4CC -- but again, men's event. Keegan had a fantastic 4CC last season (really, he should have been the bronze medalist), but Worlds was decidedly less than fantastic. So however this ends up shaking up, it's neither a guarantee of success nor an indicator that whichever two are not sent would have been better choices.

 

[Dobre]

So however this ends up shaking up, it's neither a guarantee of success nor an indicator that whichever two are not sent would have been better choices.

No. Fortunately, what we should not see is a young athlete bomb at 4CCs, then be sent to Worlds amid protests, and have unnecessary added pressure at his first Worlds. If Roman goes, he'll know he earned it via multiple event results this season.

I'm not at all convinced that Keegan or Nam would likely get better results at Worlds, especially given how they skated at Nationals. Roman has never been a GP medalist and national champion before, and I think he deserves a chance.

Absolutely, and however 4CCs/the selection play out, he deservedly has that chance. (Pending staying healthy of course).

 

[Marco]

SB:
Nam (6)
Keegan (8)
Roman (16)

GP:
Nam SC 2nd & RC 5th
Keegan SA & CoC 4th
Roman SC 10th & NHK 3rd

I just hope the top Canadian man finisher at 4CCs places so well and scores so high that there is no doubt he should be sent over the other 2 to Worlds. If they all come within 5 points of each other at 4CCs, Nam and Keegan might be a better bet for the 2nd Worlds spot but Roman would still be a fairer choice and smarter bet for the future.

 

[dramagrrl]

In terms of Roman being a smarter bet for the future, it seems like Nam has been around forever, but he and Roman are only a year apart in age. Nam has had a lot more international senior opportunities, but he also started and gained success in the senior ranks earlier, went through a period of growth and difficulty, and only really started emerging from that and regaining consistency last season. I think a lot of people wrote him off too early and personally think he is still young enough to continue making improvements in both the technical and program components/skating skills sides.

 

[puglover]

Keegan seems the "best bet" to me but he still seems to be a man in mourning who is fighting to put his feelings aside and is struggling with it.

 

[dramagrrl]

I noticed Gogolev is on the entries list for the Bavarian Open, so whatever injury kept him out of Canadians must not have been very serious? (Or perhaps they just put him on the list in hopes he will be ready, to give him more experience before JW.)

 

[RoseRed]

I noticed Gogolev is on the entries list for the Bavarian Open, so whatever injury kept him out of Canadians must not have been very serious? (Or perhaps they just put him on the list in hopes he will be ready, to give him more experience before JW.)

Skate Canada's comments on Stephen are here.

The most notable absence in the men’s event in Mississauga was rising talent Stephen Gogolev, the silver medalist at 2019 nationals and the 2018 Junior Grand Prix Final champion. The official word from Skate Canada is the 15-year-old phenom — who has had a major growth spurt and now stands 5-foot-5 — was unable to compete at nationals because of a bone bruise on his right ankle. However, he is expected to be ready for the World Junior Championships March 2-8 in Estonia and will be joined by Joseph Phan, the fourth-place finisher in the senior men’s event at nationals.

Skate Canada officials will attend in California next week to meet with Gogolev and his coach Rafael Arutyunyan to assess his progress. “He’s healthy; he’s back on the ice. His stuff is all there, but we are just being careful not to push him too soon. Junior Worlds is still a month and a half away,” said Slipchuk.

 

[Marco]

In terms of Roman being a smarter bet for the future, it seems like Nam has been around forever, but he and Roman are only a year apart in age. Nam has had a lot more international senior opportunities, but he also started and gained success in the senior ranks earlier, went through a period of growth and difficulty, and only really started emerging from that and regaining consistency last season. I think a lot of people wrote him off too early and personally think he is still young enough to continue making improvements in both the technical and program components/skating skills sides.

True - Nam went to Worlds 5 times, placed as high as 5th and as low as not making the free (twice). Perhaps he has been more consistent recently but I don't think overall he has been an icon for consistency and reliability which is what Skate Canada needs this time round.

Keegan is a safer bet in contrast (i.e. less bombs) but I honestly feel he skates TOO fast and has too little control over his jumps. It might be exciting to watch but I wonder if this is what's keeping him from being truly (or more) consistent.

Roman won a medal at the NHK with a low score. I love his skating but I think he needs a great and decisive skate at 4CCs to show everyone his National title wasn't a fluke.

 

[screech]

True - Nam went to Worlds 5 times, placed as high as 5th and as low as not making the free (twice). Perhaps he has been more consistent recently but I don't think overall he has been an icon for consistency and reliability which is what Skate Canada needs this time round.

And one of those times Nam missed the free was when he was sent over someone who actually qualified for Worlds (no matter how the decision was spun).
Let's be honest. None of our Canadian men are that reliable. Nam is usually pretty consistent with the jumps, but it's never certain how he'll be scored, or if he'll slip back into old snail-like habits as he did at Canadians in the FP. Keegan has the most "wow" factor of the men, but his power makes him so inconsistent. And Roman is just Roman, you never know what you're going to get, despite his insane potential..

If skaters want to peak at the right time of year, as most do, then Roman is right on track, and I hope Skate Canada doesn't ignore how the seasons have progressed for each man.

 

[shutterbug]

Roman's latest vlog: FIRST NATIONAL TITLE!!! He's so honest, I was having sympathy anxiety!

 

[aftershocks]

As for the USFSA, it's funny how Adam Rippon's Olympic dream came at the cost of another skater, Ross Miner, too.

Can we please stop forgetting that Ross came in second and Zhou was third with some URs. Adam should have edged Zhou anyway in the scoring. Adam, having not been given the edge over Zhou, the assignment decision should have been made between Zhou in third and Adam in fourth.

The only political reason that Ross was disrespected is because he wasn't seen to have solid quads or consistent performances in the latter years of his career. But, he was always a solid competitor with talent and grit. His performances at 2018 U.S. Nationals were spectacular.

Despite the fluke of Adam popping his final two jumps, Adam had better overall credentials re BOW over 2016-17 to 2017-18 seasons, so he should have been chosen over either of Ross or Zhou. Between Zhou and Ross, I think Ross deserved the opportunity to go the Olympics, with Zhou being sent to Worlds. But that's a topic for U.S. men's thread.

 

[victorskid]

Sorry but this thread is about CANADIAN men!!!