U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

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I don't think it's mentally healthy for young athletes to be competing against their training mates and for approval of their coach on a daily basis, and that's an understatement. There's another approach that works as well- it's called healthy competition, where one looks at their training mates' improvement and thinks "I can /want to rise up to that level" and athletes spur each other on to greater heights rather than participate in an environment that's structured to foster in/out groups and individuals. Yes if you have a big enough pool of athletes it will develop a handful with killer competitive abilities but at what cost? I know there are alternatives because I've seen them work in another sport so this kind of environment isn't the only way to produce champions and even if it were imo winning isn't worth the damage it does to most children's mental health.
edited to add: I know it's not singles, but Gadbois appears to be a good example of the latter approach.
I disagree here i think competition is a part of life. I think kids compete for a lot of things all the time. And in the real world they most certainly will be.

Furthermore these are kids looking to be champions. Russian nationals is very stressful Olympics are stressful. You need to be mentally prepared.

Once could point out her girls have known for years what it would take to be Olympic champion Olympic medalists. And have been preparing doing what’s necessary for a long time.

Others have had the shock of seeing how far developed the Russians are and not being there ready to compete.
 
Examples?

I would also put out the idea that U.S. skaters training in sufficiently big training centers (CS, maybe Boston) are or should be fairly well aware of what their top-level competitors at that same center are doing. It may not be quite the same environment as the Eteri rink, but it's also not like these skaters are training in pods isolated from each other.
Agnes Zawadzki left the sport because of funding issues, if I recall. She was a true talent, and one whose situation and end of her career broke my heart.
 
The person who first comes to mind is Francesca Chiara, but I can't find anything about her coaching situation online.
 
This made me think about all the competitions that youngsters are involved with - Tball, soccer, even football at young ages. They are competing to win. So Eteri is in a way, applying the same principle to her coaching.
I also wonder if group lessons might potentially make things more affordable for the skaters. I also think a lot of kids like competition. If you don’t like competition why be in a sport? Many kids too have to compete for spots in teams.

Now Russian junior nationals seems crazyiness but I don’t think training with tough competition is a bad thing.
 
There are thousands of rinks around the US that offer some degree of lower level figure skating instruction.

Some don't offer the ice time or coaching expertise to support even modest dreams of competitive training (juvenile/intermediate competition as an end goal) without traveling elsewhere, or could support individual skaters at that level but wouldn't have enough skaters at that level at the same time to put together group instruction.

So say there are hundreds of rinks around the country that do have skaters training to competitive levels with double jumps, and at each of these rinks a smaller subset of skaters who have the physical talent, ambition, and resources (time, money, etc.) to aim for triple+ jumps and higher level competition.

It could be possible for those rinks or clubs to offer academy-style training that would offer more supervised ice time and instruction in group contexts, at a lower financial cost to those skaters. Which might allow more of their would-be competitors to master all the Moves in the Field skills and double jumps at younger ages, and to make progress on learning double axels and triples.

At rinks/clubs with plenty of ice time, highly skilled coaches, and a large base population of potential competitive skaters who live nearby, those coaches might be able to grow an affordable program with double-digit numbers of elite-track competitors.

In most cases, it would be likely that those ambitious competitors would be training during school hours. So families would need to make other arrangements, which often cost more than attending public school, for their skaters to take advantage of the elite-track training.

And once such a program is successful, it would likely attract more skaters who commute longer distances or relocate to train there.

Which could be considered "training centers" -- maybe several dozen around the US.

But long commutes or relocating whole families (or splitting families so young skaters can leave home to train) are also expensive.

So even if the training itself is more affordable in an academy-style environment than in one where all figure skating instruction takes place in private lessons from the pre-preliminary/single jump level onward, for most would-be competitor and their families there will still be significant investments and sacrifices, financial and otherwise, to participate in elite-track training in a group environment.

Encouraging a group approach even at rinks/clubs that can sustain only recreational or mid-level competitive programs, from which the rare skater with elite potential would have to move elsewhere early on, as well as in those that can support elite training, would allow more skaters to get to that point more affordably. Especially for those lucky enough to live near a training center that they can start out at from the beginning.

And the group approach might also help the competitive mindset of skaters training alongside others of similar age and skill level.

But it wouldn't solve the problem for talented ambitious skaters who start out at smaller programs, especially those for whom relocating is not feasible. There just wouldn't be enough other skaters of similar age and skill level to push each other in the same way as is possible at a training center.
 
There are thousands of rinks around the US that offer some degree of lower level figure skating instruction.

Some don't offer the ice time or coaching expertise to support even modest dreams of competitive training (juvenile/intermediate competition as an end goal) without traveling elsewhere, or could support individual skaters at that level but wouldn't have enough skaters at that level at the same time to put together group instruction.

So say there are hundreds of rinks around the country that do have skaters training to competitive levels with double jumps, and at each of these rinks a smaller subset of skaters who have the physical talent, ambition, and resources (time, money, etc.) to aim for triple+ jumps and higher level competition.

It could be possible for those rinks or clubs to offer academy-style training that would offer more supervised ice time and instruction in group contexts, at a lower financial cost to those skaters. Which might allow more of their would-be competitors to master all the Moves in the Field skills and double jumps at younger ages, and to make progress on learning double axels and triples.

At rinks/clubs with plenty of ice time, highly skilled coaches, and a large base population of potential competitive skaters who live nearby, those coaches might be able to grow an affordable program with double-digit numbers of elite-track competitors.

In most cases, it would be likely that those ambitious competitors would be training during school hours. So families would need to make other arrangements, which often cost more than attending public school, for their skaters to take advantage of the elite-track training.

And once such a program is successful, it would likely attract more skaters who commute longer distances or relocate to train there.

Which could be considered "training centers" -- maybe several dozen around the US.

But long commutes or relocating whole families (or splitting families so young skaters can leave home to train) are also expensive.

So even if the training itself is more affordable in an academy-style environment than in one where all figure skating instruction takes place in private lessons from the pre-preliminary/single jump level onward, for most would-be competitor and their families there will still be significant investments and sacrifices, financial and otherwise, to participate in elite-track training in a group environment.

Encouraging a group approach even at rinks/clubs that can sustain only recreational or mid-level competitive programs, from which the rare skater with elite potential would have to move elsewhere early on, as well as in those that can support elite training, would allow more skaters to get to that point more affordably. Especially for those lucky enough to live near a training center that they can start out at from the beginning.

And the group approach might also help the competitive mindset of skaters training alongside others of similar age and skill level.

But it wouldn't solve the problem for talented ambitious skaters who start out at smaller programs, especially those for whom relocating is not feasible. There just wouldn't be enough other skaters of similar age and skill level to push each other in the same way as is possible at a training center.
I would imagine this will always be an issue I mean even the Russians have this issue. However I do think the group setting has its merits and I disagree with the idea that it’s unfair mentally to compete in practice.

Sports are about competiting.
 
I would imagine this will always be an issue I mean even the Russians have this issue. However I do think the group setting has its merits and I disagree with the idea that it’s unfair mentally to compete in practice.

Sports are about competiting.
It seems that Italy has group instruction as well since Kurakova said that Italy and Russia both train in groups and in Canada the focus was on individual lessons. I also think a big issue is the availability of ice time and purchasing ice time by the hour or 45 minutes (as it is here in NYC). Eteri's students seem to have unlimited ice time and can do multiple run throughs. I can't imagine skaters being able to do more than 2 runs throughs in a session because the other people have priority as well. Japan also has an issue with crowded ice.
 
I would imagine this will always be an issue I mean even the Russians have this issue. However I do think the group setting has its merits and I disagree with the idea that it’s unfair mentally to compete in practice.

Sports are about competiting.
If you are referring to my post then let me be clear: whenever there are competitive athletes of similar ability training together there is always going to be a level of healthy competition. The issue is HEALTHY competition. The coach's job isn't to set up a forum that constantly pits training mates against one another by design, especially with young athletes when the coach is one of the most, if not the most, important authority figures in that young person's life and pretty much controls their destiny in the sport. It's unhealthy, it's abusive, it's damaging.
 
If you are referring to my post then let me be clear: whenever there are competitive athletes of similar ability training together there is always going to be a level of healthy competition. The issue is HEALTHY competition. The coach's job isn't to set up a forum that constantly pits training mates against one another by design, especially with young athletes when the coach is one of the most, if not the most, important authority figures in that young person's life and pretty much controls their destiny in the sport. It's unhealthy, it's abusive, it's damaging.
I disagree here. For example when I played basketball on a team in junior High. I most certainly was competiting for a starter spot on the team with my teammate and training mates.

I am not sure why this is any different.

I don’t like Eteri badmouthing Alinas mother or the food stuff.

But I don’t think skaters competing with their training mates in practice is the worst thing in the world.

I would also point out that the young children probably like it.

Of course it might be hard for the elder ones when world Olympics is on the line.

But if the kids don’t like competiting don’t enjoy it then they shouldn’t be in the sport.
 
For the record when I say not in the sport I mean at the highly competitive Olympic world level where they are devoting their childhood to it.
 
Hence the Italian women's remarkable progress with triple axels and quadruple jumps. :)
If you look at Italy in roller skating, I think you would see where their talent goes. Not every girl with talent wants to ice skate. Conversely the US has several men who jump multiple quads and more training in this country. How come that doesn't translate to women's skating. Raf hasn't produced a female skater with one quad, let alone multiple quads.
 
I disagree here. For example when I played basketball on a team in junior High. I most certainly was competiting for a starter spot on the team with my teammate and training mates.

I am not sure why this is any different.
It's absolutely not the same thing. When I ran with a nationally-ranked post-collegiate team then runners were chosen to represent the team based on a combination of performance and recent training results but the coach did the opposite of sowing division among athletes by pitting them against each other. That kind of training environment would have been considered extremely effed up.
 
It's absolutely not the same thing. When I ran with a nationally-ranked post-collegiate team then runners were chosen to represent the team based on a combination of performance and recent training results but the coach did the opposite of sowing division among athletes by pitting them against each other. That kind of training environment would have been considered extremely effed up.
We aren’t for the practices. Looking at the videos with Eteris girls and their interactions they don’t seem to hate each other.

I doubt they are all best friends lol. But hate each other is not something I see. In the videos.


One could point out to Eteri doesn’t make the choice on who makes the Olympic team.

I have no doubt it’s not fun getting silver and your coach trained the gold medalist.

But then I think the ones who left and went back went back partly because they recognized training with their competitors made them better.

I suspect the girls see for themselves where they stack up. I doubt Eteri has to tell them.
 
Funny enough, the only ladies skater doing “ultra C” elements in Pyeongchang was Mirai Nagasu. The truth is our ladies who make it through are hampered by foundational issues despite having a will to compete so that prevents them from scoring as highly as their base values suggests. We haven’t had a skater reach Yuna Kim 2010 levels yet except for like Gracie Gold but she was hit with incredible expectations that crushed her. Bradie Tennell worked really hard to almost become a 150-level LP skater but then sometimes the callers would ding her too and then she was hit with injury.
 
No matter how brilliant the coach, if they can't get their female skaters to do quads by age 15-17, chances are they never will. No female skater to date has maintained a consistent quad past 17 that I've seen. The way the IJS favors quads means that female competitors have a very short competitive life if they want to get on podiums. Men grow into quads. Women grow out of them.
 
I wonder if there is a ladies skater who has been coached from the ground up by RAF as opposed to them coming to him after the age of 16-18, and if we would see something different than what we’ve been seeing from ladies. But since we haven’t seen a lady past a certain age with a quad yet, I wonder if a major change in coaching ladies will need to happen for ladies to “grow into quads” the way older gymnasts who matured into their bodies grow muscles and are then able to attempt harder difficulty in gymnastics compared to the “golden age” where small and skinny was the only way to be competitive in gymnastics.
 
No matter how brilliant the coach, if they can't get their female skaters to do quads by age 15-17, chances are they never will. No female skater to date has maintained a consistent quad past 17 that I've seen. The way the IJS favors quads means that female competitors have a very short competitive life if they want to get on podiums. Men grow into quads. Women grow out of them.
But right now we have a tiny, tiny sample of women skaters who had a quad. Maybe with a slightly larger sample, a solid percentage (say as much as 1/3) will keep their quads. Trusova, for example, looks like she'll still have at least some of her quads next season.
 
But right now we have a tiny, tiny sample of women skaters who had a quad. Maybe with a slightly larger sample, a solid percentage (say as much as 1/3) will keep their quads. Trusova, for example, looks like she'll still have at least some of her quads next season.
Yeah I know few women before this area that did quads. And it’s quite possible Miki didn’t keep hers because to few had it and it was risky.

I think Trusova will keep hers.
 
He has publicly complained that he hasn’t had this opportunity, that most skaters come to him to fix their technique, and by then it’s too late to teach women a quad or 3axel.
I am sure he would love to work with a young Valieva like talent
 
Yes, my guess is that if a skater with the talent and goid basics/technique came to him at age 11-12, he could probably work with them to get them the 3A and quads by the time she is 14-15.

You'd think, with the talent pool in the LA area alone that there would be at least one or two ladies working with him by now to get those jumps by the time they need them for Jr & Sr international competition.
 
Well nothing stops Raf from recruiting talent. He can have auditions the way Eteri does.
But she has large financial backing and systems that support her. It makes it easy to cast a net and recruit top talents. There’s nothing like that in the US. Raf could only realistically have that with a wealthy financial backer, or by returning to Russia. Otherwise he has to wait and see who comes to him.

Though, I think it should be everyone. Chen’s quads are so efficient. Everyone should be itching to learn jump technique from Raf.
 
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