U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

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Debbie S said:
Yes. CBS News tonight said the plane today had 100 (out of over 200 total) athletes and that the rest of the athletes would be traveling over the next few days.
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And also traveling from different locations in Europe/overseas, etc. There's another Delta flight scheduled to take off from LAX to Seoul on Saturday, the 29th. That might be the flight that Mariah, Jason, C-G/L and some other skaters are on.
 
Vagabond said:
If she does, she's not a normal teenager. "Normal" teenagers don't work with a therapist. Why are people so invested in the concept that "normal" teenagers go see a psychologist when hard data indicates that they do not? Is there some compelling need to make her "normal'?
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You’re really out here doubling down on the idea that some thing that your own data says is done by one out of six people between the ages of 12 and 17 is abnormal? Things done by one out of six people are actually pretty normal.
 
Willin said:
Collected in 2019. The ********* (and the rise of stars like Billie Eilish who talk about therapy and mental health) has had a huge and undeniable change on both accessibility to and use of mental health resources.
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I’m not sure about increased access (a close friend is a therapist for teens and she’s stretched very thin these days), but the pop culture impact is huge. There are a ton of gen Z and millennial public figures who publicly discuss therapy and mental health now. It may or may not be an “average” teen experience, but it’s not something most teens would view as unusual because their peers and favorite celebrities are talking about it a lot. Gen Z kids have conversations on the regular about mental health, so another kid who does the same thing is going to seem more relatable to them, not less. It’s about the culture, not the statistics.

ETA: I have no interest in saying Alysa is “normal” (she’s an Olympic figure skater, so… no). But I do think she’s presenting herself in a way that’s less polished, less “perfect,” and inherently more relatable to a lot of teens than most figure skaters have in the past. I’m partly just intrigued because I can’t imagine any adult is part of crafting that social media profile, so I’m interested to see what she does with it.
 
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There was a 90s animated series called Hey Arnold! that devoted an entire episode about one of the main characters, a grade school aged girl, going to therapy. Her friend even talked about how there’s less stigma about therapy and working on one’s mental health. Her dysfunctional parents reacted badly to it though. I remember her father saying, “In my day, we didn’t have therapy!” To which she replied under her breath, “That’s obvious.”
 
Vagabond said:
If she does, she's not a normal teenager. "Normal" teenagers don't work with a therapist. Why are people so invested in the concept that "normal" teenagers go see a psychologist when hard data indicates that they do not? Is there some compelling need to make her "normal'?
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Why do you keep using the word “normal” as if seeing a therapist is abnormal? What does normal mean to you here? Sure, going to a therapist may be statistically deviant but it’s not abnormal.

Lots of people go to see therapists and I guess until that percentage hits 50 percent it won’t be “normal.”

I can think of all kinds of characteristics that we think of as normal that don’t hit mark.

I wear glasses - it’s normal
I’m short- it’s normal
I’m Hispanic - it’s normal
 
Trillian said:
I’m not sure about increased access (a close friend is a therapist for teens and she’s stretched very thin these days), but the pop culture impact is huge. There are a ton of gen Z and millennial public figures who publicly discuss therapy and mental health now. It may or may not be an “average” teen experience, but it’s not something most teens would view as unusual because their peers and favorite celebrities are talking about it a lot. Gen Z kids have conversations on the regular about mental health, so another kid who does the same thing is going to seem more relatable to them, not less. It’s about the culture, not the statistics.

ETA: I have no interest in saying Alysa is “normal” (she’s an Olympic figure skater, so… no). But I do think she’s presenting herself in a way that’s less polished, less “perfect,” and inherently more relatable to a lot of teens than most figure skaters have in the past. I’m partly just intrigued because I can’t imagine any adult is part of crafting that social media profile, so I’m interested to see what she does with it.
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Of course there's a shortage of people to do therapy, but it used to be you'd have to go through insurance or some referral network or google to find people and go to in-person appointments. The cost was pretty crazy. Now there's several legitimate low cost apps to connect people with therapists and, at least in California, several new public therapy initiatives including a new hotline. It's easier than ever for people to get help - and perhaps that's part of the reason why therapists are stretched so thin.

I find it refreshing how "imperfect" Alysa is on social media. It's so uncommon for any pro athlete to have such a normal instagram.
 
skatfan said:
Why do you keep using the word “normal” as if seeing a therapist is abnormal?
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It isn't seeing a therapist that worries me but having the issues that cause a teenager (in this instance, Alysa Liu) to see a therapist.

There are a lot of things just in what Alysa Liu and her father say about her personal life that might well be the fruitful subjects of discussion between her and her therapist. Add to that the pressure from fans holding her up as "normal" or, for that matter mentioning that she is in fact seeing a therapist (I'm not any better at this than others here.), and I see even more such subjects.

I am sorry if this isn't a direct answer to your question, but it's the best I can do right now.
 
Vagabond said:
It isn't seeing a therapist that worries me but having the issues that cause a teenager (in this instance, Alysa Liu) to see a therapist.
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I think I get what you’re saying. But in a general sense, teens are a high risk group for mental health challenges. Frankly, all kids benefit from learning tools that will help them cope, and there are plenty of cases now where therapy can function more like preventative health care. Therapy in itself is not a sign that a kid has experienced trauma or has severe mental health issues. Sometimes it just means that they’re finding ways to navigate challenges that are extremely common for teenagers.

Whether you think there are signs of particular issues in Alysa’s case is a different story. But going to therapy isn’t a red flag in itself. It doesn’t mean that anything in particular is or is not happening, except that she’s taking care of her health.
 
Karen-W said:
No idea, but it does seem like the skaters/teams who will be skating on either the 1st or 2nd day of the TE have left.

2/4 - Men's SP, Pairs SP, Dance RD
2/6 - Women's SP, Men's FS
2/7 - Pairs FS, Dance FD, Women's FS
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I would hope not all teams have left because it seems Chock/Bates are still home and if they are splitting the dance event, it would make more sense to have CB do the RD. And I truly hope they are splitting dance.
 
clairecloutier said:
It looks like Alysa is partnering with the American Girl doll brand. 😃🥰

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Nice. My daughters are way, way beyond the AG time of life, but they loved those dolls and books and I would have been super excited (and shelling out the :bribe:) for this back in the day.
 
clairecloutier said:
It looks like Alysa is partnering with the American Girl doll brand. 😃🥰

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ionals
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Now that is cute. This kid seems to have good common sense and a great team around her....family and professionals
 
Elyce Lin-Gracey (junior) and Soho Lee (advanced novice) will make their international debuts next month at Challenge Cup in the Netherlands, per the USFS international assignments page :cheer2::love:

Egna Spring Trophy is now listed on the USFS page so I assume Katie Shen will go here along with hopefully 1 or 2 others.
 
I just watched the women's free skates from 4 Continents and was impressed with the Japanese and Koreans. My theory about why US women have stagnated in terms of jump content is that USFSA and FS coaches had 50-60 years of massive success under 6.0 and still haven't made the mental shift to the current judging system - at least for the women. Eteri has figured out how to train skaters to get 3 axels and quads by the earliest year of age eligibility. It's a very narrow window. USFSA has yet to do that.. Also, is US figure skating just not attracting athletes as strong as ones they had in the past? Athletes with the increasing gymnastics-style skills that the current judging system requires go into gymnastics. They can get college scholarships that way, but not so in FS. No Oly medal since 2006, no worlds medal since 2016. What will it take to get out of this rut?
 
Icetalavista said:
I just watched the women's free skates from 4 Continents and was impressed with the Japanese and Koreans. My theory about why US women have stagnated in terms of jump content is that USFSA and FS coaches had 50-60 years of massive success under 6.0 and still haven't made the mental shift to the current judging system - at least for the women. Eteri has figured out how to train skaters to get 3 axels and quads by the earliest year of age eligibility. It's a very narrow window. USFSA has yet to do that.. Also, is US figure skating just not attracting athletes as strong as ones they had in the past? Athletes with the increasing gymnastics-style skills that the current judging system requires go into gymnastics. They can get college scholarships that way, but not so in FS. No Oly medal since 2006, no worlds medal since 2016. What will it take to get out of this rut?
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A part of me is this has got to be the coaching to. Russia has so many talented young coaches.
 
Icetalavista said:
I just watched the women's free skates from 4 Continents and was impressed with the Japanese and Koreans. My theory about why US women have stagnated in terms of jump content is that USFSA and FS coaches had 50-60 years of massive success under 6.0 and still haven't made the mental shift to the current judging system - at least for the women. Eteri has figured out how to train skaters to get 3 axels and quads by the earliest year of age eligibility. It's a very narrow window. USFSA has yet to do that.. Also, is US figure skating just not attracting athletes as strong as ones they had in the past? Athletes with the increasing gymnastics-style skills that the current judging system requires go into gymnastics. They can get college scholarships that way, but not so in FS. No Oly medal since 2006, no worlds medal since 2016. What will it take to get out of this rut?
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And another part of this has to be financial. This is such an expensive sport, and Russia takes the old government sponsored system from the USSR and has continued to. The US keeps its older, almost country club style sport approach, even though the percentage of the pool of people who actually have the money to afford it is much smaller than it was with money more concentrated in the richest of the rich.
 
I really feel that the coaching model most prevalent in the US is the model that has existed for forever, private lessons. This can develop excellent skaters, but it may or may not develop competitors.

The group lesson model, used so effectively by Eteri, develops competitors first and skaters second. This is not a knock on their skating abilities by any means. But the reason she's been so successful is that her skaters exhibit an unprecedented level of consistency in competition.

Dick Button once said (if I'm not misremembering) no judge wanted to reward a fluke or be embarrassed by a skater. This is still true under IJS. Consistency is overly important to judges, to say nothing of its obvious and direct impact on points.

There was a revealing interview with Anna Scherbakova's father where he talked about how Anna would come home from practice and discuss how that day's jumping competition had gone, who let their team down, who came through for their teammates, etc. Their frequent (if not daily) intrasquad competitions appeared to be her whole world.

Literally or not, every Eteri practice is a competition. If a skater doesn't like competition or can't compete, they will find something to do off-ice or switch to ice dance, or she will make these choices for them.

This is a funneling process that doesn't exist in the US. And if a US skater is a beautiful skater, with a connected coach, they will most likely be 'supported' even if they show an inability to compete. Skaters who show real physical talent, but don't thrill purists and don't have connected coaches, are not supported enough and tend to hit a ceiling of sorts.
 
Coco said:
Skaters who show real physical talent, but don't thrill purists and don't have connected coaches, are not supported enough and tend to hit a ceiling of sorts.
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Examples?

I would also put out the idea that U.S. skaters training in sufficiently big training centers (CS, maybe Boston) are or should be fairly well aware of what their top-level competitors at that same center are doing. It may not be quite the same environment as the Eteri rink, but it's also not like these skaters are training in pods isolated from each other.
 
clairecloutier said:
Examples?

I would also put out the idea that U.S. skaters training in sufficiently big training centers (CS, maybe Boston) are or should be fairly well aware of what their top-level competitors at that same center are doing. It may not be quite the same environment as the Eteri rink, but it's also not like these skaters are training in pods isolated from each other.
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It isn't quite the same as training under the same coach and being put into competitive drills daily, which is how it sounds like things are done in Eteri's school. Though it might be interesting if that was a tactic employed by some of these coaching "pods" - to instill a killer competitive instinct in the skaters that does seem to be lacking (not just from our women either - look at Camden & Tomoki, for example).
 
I don't think it's mentally healthy for young athletes to be competing against their training mates and for approval of their coach on a daily basis, and that's an understatement. There's another approach that works as well- it's called healthy competition, where one looks at their training mates' improvement and thinks "I can /want to rise up to that level" and athletes spur each other on to greater heights rather than participate in an environment that's structured to foster in/out groups and individuals. Yes if you have a big enough pool of athletes it will develop a handful with killer competitive abilities but at what cost? I know there are alternatives because I've seen them work in another sport so this kind of environment isn't the only way to produce champions and even if it were imo winning isn't worth the damage it does to most children's mental health.
edited to add: I know it's not singles, but Gadbois appears to be a good example of the latter approach.
 
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I think the Russian model is supervised group practices. The US has this in gymnastics and produces strong teams. I think that constant supervision and intermittent corrections is probably better for reinforcing skills.
 
Stephanie said:
Elyce Lin-Gracey (junior) and Soho Lee (advanced novice) will make their international debuts next month at Challenge Cup in the Netherlands, per the USFS international assignments page :cheer2::love:
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Yes, Elyce Lin-Gracey, 14, was 5th in Junior and Soho Lee, 12, had qualified for Nationals in Junior (ISU age limit does not apply for Nationals) but withdrew before the start of Nationals so her name was not listed as WD in the final standings.
Egna Spring Trophy is now listed on the USFS page so I assume Katie Shen will go here along with hopefully 1 or 2 others.
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Yes, sounds good! :) Katie was amazing in her FS at Nationals, winning the Junior FS with 7 clean triples and excellent skating and pulling up from 8th in SP for the pewter medal. The audience in Nashville really showed their appreciation after she skated!

Belatedly, 2021 Junior national silver medalist Kanon Smith (who AFAIK had not competed since Skate Milwaukee's Junior Cup in July 2021) placed 4th in Junior Women group I at the Bavarian Open with a total score of 143.51 (48.75/26.29 TES in SP, 94.76/46.49 TES in FS) and got the Junior Worlds minimums of 23/38 in her debut international).

Removing the non-ISU Junior age-eligible skaters and the ones who did not qualify in/compete Senior or Junior at 2022 Nationals - this is the list of 12 who currently have the Junior Worlds TES minimums (I've included their 2022 Nationals placements in brackets):

Elsa CHENG [J8] Bavarian Open 2020 04/02/2020 36.12 J Bavarian Open 2020 05/02/2020 55.02 J
Hanna HARRELL [S8] ISU JGP Grand Prix de Courchevel 2019 22/08/2019 28.43 J ISU JGP Grand Prix de Courchevel 2019 23/08/2019 55.13 J
Hannah HERRERA [J9] Challenge Cup 2020 21/02/2020 27.99 J Challenge Cup 2020 22/02/2020 55.23 J
Mia KALIN [J6] ISU JGP Baltic Cup 2021 30/09/2021 33.57 J ISU JGP Kosice 2021 04/09/2021 60.18 J
Josephine LEE [J3] USA ISU JGP Courchevel (2) 2021 26/08/2021 24.50 J ISU JGP Courchevel (2) 2021 27/08/2021 42.56 J
Isabeau LEVITO [S3] ISU JGP Courchevel (2) 2021 26/08/2021 41.08 J ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2021 09/10/2021 73.56 J
Alysa LIU [S-wd] ISU Junior Grand Prix Final 2019/20 05/12/2019 41.01 J ISU JGP Baltic Cup 2019 20/09/2019 83.94 J
Clare SEO [J1] ISU JGP Courchevel 2021 19/08/2021 36.60 J ISU JGP Baltic Cup 2021 01/10/2021 57.93 J
Audrey SHIN [S6] Winter Youth Olympic Games 2020 11/01/2020 33.45 J Winter Youth Olympic Games 2020 13/01/2020 60.73 J
Lindsay THORNGREN [S5] ISU JGP Ljubljana Cup 2021 23/09/2021 40.90 J ISU JGP Courchevel 2021 20/08/2021 65.23 J
Kate WANG [S7] ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2021 08/10/2021 34.07 J ISU JGP Krasnoyarsk 2021 18/09/2021 61.21 J
Ava Marie ZIEGLER [J2] ISU JGP Kosice 2021 02/09/2021 32.77 J ISU JGP Kosice 2021 04/09/2021 59.62 J

I doubt Alysa (Olympics/Worlds) and Audrey (4th at 4CC) are candidates for Junior Worlds and we should hear soon which ones are attending the Junior Worlds team selection camp that's happening today and tomorrow in Norwood, Mass. I heard unofficially that Thorngren is not at the camp (makes sense since she is the 1st alternate for the Olympics) and assume she will be selected, along with Isabeau Levito, so there very likely will only be one spot open among the remaining contenders.
 
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bladesofgorey said:
I don't think it's mentally healthy for young athletes to be competing against their training mates and for approval of their coach on a daily basis, and that's an understatement. There's another approach that works as well- it's called healthy competition, where one looks at their training mates' improvement and thinks "I can /want to rise up to that level" and athletes spur each other on to greater heights rather than participate in an environment that's structured to foster in/out groups and individuals. Yes if you have a big enough pool of athletes it will develop a handful with killer competitive abilities but at what cost? I know there are alternatives because I've seen them work in another sport so this kind of environment isn't the only way to produce champions and even if it were imo winning isn't worth the damage it does to most children's mental health.
edited to add: I know it's not singles, but Gadbois appears to be a good example of the latter approach.
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This made me think about all the competitions that youngsters are involved with - Tball, soccer, even football at young ages. They are competing to win. So Eteri is in a way, applying the same principle to her coaching.
 
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