U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

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Stephanie said:
Starr has been given so many opportunities over the years and not really gone anywhere with them or stepped up to the next level. I wish Hanna would have been given the opportunity, especially as it could help her get a GP spot next year.
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Pretty sure this is Starr’s last real season, so it might be a sort of farewell bid. Hanna will certainly have more opportunities in the future.
 
clairecloutier said:
I was thinking about the triple/triple issue for U.S. women.

If you leave out the Russian women, what other women skaters in the world are regularly landing fully ratified 3/3s?

By "regularly," I mean that they hit maybe 50% of competitive attempts without URs, DGs, etc.
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Lots of skaters and even the Canadian girl (Schizas) has a pretty reliable clean 3 lutz-3 toe.
 
Karen-W said:
Interesting that the alternates were listed in the following order: Lindsay Thorngren, Amber Glenn, Gabbie Izzo - so looks like they named Lindsay as 1st alternate. Kinda surprising but I suppose that her solid SP here at Nats as well as her qualifying for the JGPF helped her case.
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Brava, Lindsay! She better be ready for the Olympics, in case there’s a crud case among those named (hope not but we’re living in crud hell). Will alternates (at least #1) travel to Beijing? At least one should, given timings, tests required and such. It’s not like Torino 2006, when Emily Hughes could instantly hop on a plane to replace Kwan.
 
Allskate said:
When was the last Nationals where you saw more than a couple of women even attempting a triple axel or quad? And what had you seen this season that would have led you to think that this year would include such jumps? It's not the American women that are different. It's the Russian women who are different, and we've known that for some time. I can't imagine that anyone following what has been happening would have expected a bunch of quads and triple axels from the American women. And we're always wondering who is actually going to be able to land triple/triple triples, especially triple/triples that are not made up of just triple toes.
Click to expand...
I'm going to pose a theory here that perhaps the reason why American women aren't performing 3-3s, 3 axels and quads like the rest of the world is because our health care system is so expensive that it costs a lot of money to fix these broken bodies. I understand that top athletes can receive care at the Olympic center, and many skaters may have parents who have great health insurance, but a lot of middle class athletes may not have access to such great health care.

A lot of American coaches do not want to break their athletes' bodies. I was only a recreational skater when I took lessons and it was a long time ago, but my coach had worked with good skaters, and generally there was a high focus on safety. Breaking a leg was a big deal and considered a serious injury, at least in his eyes. Kind of eye opening that we are seeing all these injuries these Russian girls are experiencing, and one hand scrutinizing their training regimes and diets, yet when American girls are doing conservative programs with 3-2s and no triple axels, they are being criticized for not taking risk. Mariah not putting in a 3-3 is more due to nerves than her not having one. In fact, she should be commended for being 25 years old and actually being competitive and remaining healthy. Brady was working to upgrade her tech and get a triple axel and unfortunately she is injured. And Brady has been doing 3-3s for years. Karen also does a 3-3. If Alysa had competed, she would have had a triple axel attempt and a 3-3. Amber also probably would have attempted bigger content. This was a strange nationals and the remaining people were nervous and more conservative.

There a few US men who have quads. Both Nathan and Vincent come from families who have the means to provide good health care to their kids. Vincent was the only skater whom I have heard actually comment on how he couldn't train in Canada because he would have to fly to the US for medical treatment.

www.browndailyherald.com

Undergraduate Vincent Zhou takes second at figure skating U.S. championships

Serving the Brown University community since 1891
www.browndailyherald.com www.browndailyherald.com

Herald: How did the COVID-19 pandemic impact your training regimen?

Zhou: When lockdown happened, I flew to the United States to gain access to health insurance. I got stuck in Colorado Springs. It was difficult to do any on-ice training but I made sure to stay fit. One of my coaches found a little barn with a sheet of ice and someone who was willing to let me stay and practice on it. I could barely do anything but it was better than nothing. I got lucky because I was able to return the ice sooner than most people.
 
soogar said:
There a few US men who have quads. Both Nathan and Vincent come from families who have the means to provide good health care to their kids. Vincent was the only skater whom I have heard actually comment on how he couldn't train in Canada because he would have to fly to the US for medical treatment.
Click to expand...
The US Men didn't seem to give the US Healthcare system much of a thought tonight. I thank them. :40beers:
 
It turns out USFS is still planning on having a junior world selection selection camp for singles:

The 2022 U.S. World Junior Team will be named following the conclusion of the World Junior Singles Camp, Jan. 31-Feb. 1 in Norwood, Massachusetts.
Click to expand...

I know it's easier to select skaters this way than choose between performances in the junior and senior divisions at nationals, but this still makes me nervous. Let's just hope the C**** situation is improved by then

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

Women's 2022 U.S. Olympic Figure Skating Team Nominated - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

U.S. Figure Skating announced today the women who will compete at the Olympic Winter Games Beijing 2022 as part of the U.S. Olympic Figure Skating Team.
usfigureskatingfanzone.com usfigureskatingfanzone.com
 
soogar said:
I'm going to pose a theory here that perhaps the reason why American women aren't performing 3-3s, 3 axels and quads like the rest of the world is because our health care system is so expensive that it costs a lot of money to fix these broken bodies. I understand that top athletes can receive care at the Olympic center, and many skaters may have parents who have great health insurance, but a lot of middle class athletes may not have access to such great health care.

A lot of American coaches do not want to break their athletes' bodies. I was only a recreational skater when I took lessons and it was a long time ago, but my coach had worked with good skaters, and generally there was a high focus on safety. Breaking a leg was a big deal and considered a serious injury, at least in his eyes. Kind of eye opening that we are seeing all these injuries these Russian girls are experiencing, and one hand scrutinizing their training regimes and diets, yet when American girls are doing conservative programs with 3-2s and no triple axels, they are being criticized for not taking risk. Mariah not putting in a 3-3 is more due to nerves than her not having one. In fact, she should be commended for being 25 years old and actually being competitive and remaining healthy. Brady was working to upgrade her tech and get a triple axel and unfortunately she is injured. And Brady has been doing 3-3s for years. Karen also does a 3-3. If Alysa had competed, she would have had a triple axel attempt and a 3-3. Amber also probably would have attempted bigger content. This was a strange nationals and the remaining people were nervous and more conservative.

There a few US men who have quads. Both Nathan and Vincent come from families who have the means to provide good health care to their kids. Vincent was the only skater whom I have heard actually comment on how he couldn't train in Canada because he would have to fly to the US for medical treatment.

www.browndailyherald.com

Undergraduate Vincent Zhou takes second at figure skating U.S. championships

Serving the Brown University community since 1891
www.browndailyherald.com www.browndailyherald.com

Herald: How did the *********-19 ********* impact your training regimen?

Zhou: When lockdown happened, I flew to the United States to gain access to health insurance. I got stuck in Colorado Springs. It was difficult to do any on-ice training but I made sure to stay fit. One of my coaches found a little barn with a sheet of ice and someone who was willing to let me stay and practice on it. I could barely do anything but it was better than nothing. I got lucky because I was able to return the ice sooner than most people.
Click to expand...
No. When you put so much time and effort into the sport, you go all in. I truly think it is a matter of off-ice training + pushing/selecting the younger ones, and money. We don’t train the best athletes, we train the ones who are lucky enough to have the money to pay for the training.
 
Yes the Russians have a system allows girls to with less means to compete.
soogar said:
I'm going to pose a theory here that perhaps the reason why American women aren't performing 3-3s, 3 axels and quads like the rest of the world is because our health care system is so expensive that it costs a lot of money to fix these broken bodies. I understand that top athletes can receive care at the Olympic center, and many skaters may have parents who have great health insurance, but a lot of middle class athletes may not have access to such great health care.

A lot of American coaches do not want to break their athletes' bodies. I was only a recreational skater when I took lessons and it was a long time ago, but my coach had worked with good skaters, and generally there was a high focus on safety. Breaking a leg was a big deal and considered a serious injury, at least in his eyes. Kind of eye opening that we are seeing all these injuries these Russian girls are experiencing, and one hand scrutinizing their training regimes and diets, yet when American girls are doing conservative programs with 3-2s and no triple axels, they are being criticized for not taking risk. Mariah not putting in a 3-3 is more due to nerves than her not having one. In fact, she should be commended for being 25 years old and actually being competitive and remaining healthy. Brady was working to upgrade her tech and get a triple axel and unfortunately she is injured. And Brady has been doing 3-3s for years. Karen also does a 3-3. If Alysa had competed, she would have had a triple axel attempt and a 3-3. Amber also probably would have attempted bigger content. This was a strange nationals and the remaining people were nervous and more conservative.

There a few US men who have quads. Both Nathan and Vincent come from families who have the means to provide good health care to their kids. Vincent was the only skater whom I have heard actually comment on how he couldn't train in Canada because he would have to fly to the US for medical treatment.

www.browndailyherald.com

Undergraduate Vincent Zhou takes second at figure skating U.S. championships

Serving the Brown University community since 1891
www.browndailyherald.com www.browndailyherald.com

Herald: How did the *********-19 ********* impact your training regimen?

Zhou: When lockdown happened, I flew to the United States to gain access to health insurance. I got stuck in Colorado Springs. It was difficult to do any on-ice training but I made sure to stay fit. One of my coaches found a little barn with a sheet of ice and someone who was willing to let me stay and practice on it. I could barely do anything but it was better than nothing. I got lucky because I was able to return the ice sooner than most people.
Click to expand...
I personally have a problem with while when we aren’t winning it’s because the others are cruel.

Plenty of US women get injured furthemore the US men are doing the most difficult stuff in the world injured can happen for them.

I to do wonder if folks just were not all that focused on teaching girls quads and typically girls learn their jumps pre puberty and keep them after. Some of this is injury concerns and the Russians taught their girls and well la. In some ways makes sense the Russians did so to distinguish themselves from each other.

Frankly to bad the Russians and the US could trade some ladies for some men.
 
pointbleu said:
No. When you put so much time and effort into the sport, you go all in. I truly think it is a matter of off-ice training + pushing/selecting the younger ones, and money. We don’t train the best athletes, we train the ones who are lucky enough to have the money to pay for the training.
Click to expand...
I agree with @pointbleu.

There are those parents who have deep pockets to support their children's training and career to ensure they succeed.

Then, there are skate parents who take our second mortgages on their homes, family members working multiple jobs or skaters who promise to pay back coaches based on future earnings to finance training.

Lastly, there are talented, but low-income skaters who can't afford training and resources to optimize their success. I can think of one low-income skater who was very talented, but didn't have the money to get better training. He was fortunate to have people who cared and coached him along to Nationals. I think USFSA tries these days to fund talented skaters, but it isn't enough at this time to ensure the USA's success in the world of figure skating, especially in singles.
 
soogar said:
I'm going to pose a theory here that perhaps the reason why American women aren't performing 3-3s, 3 axels and quads like the rest of the world is because our health care system is so expensive that it costs a lot of money to fix these broken bodies. I understand that top athletes can receive care at the Olympic center, and many skaters may have parents who have great health insurance, but a lot of middle class athletes may not have access to such great health care.

A lot of American coaches do not want to break their athletes' bodies. I was only a recreational skater when I took lessons and it was a long time ago, but my coach had worked with good skaters, and generally there was a high focus on safety. Breaking a leg was a big deal and considered a serious injury, at least in his eyes. Kind of eye opening that we are seeing all these injuries these Russian girls are experiencing, and one hand scrutinizing their training regimes and diets, yet when American girls are doing conservative programs with 3-2s and no triple axels, they are being criticized for not taking risk. Mariah not putting in a 3-3 is more due to nerves than her not having one. In fact, she should be commended for being 25 years old and actually being competitive and remaining healthy. Brady was working to upgrade her tech and get a triple axel and unfortunately she is injured. And Brady has been doing 3-3s for years. Karen also does a 3-3. If Alysa had competed, she would have had a triple axel attempt and a 3-3. Amber also probably would have attempted bigger content. This was a strange nationals and the remaining people were nervous and more conservative.

There a few US men who have quads. Both Nathan and Vincent come from families who have the means to provide good health care to their kids. Vincent was the only skater whom I have heard actually comment on how he couldn't train in Canada because he would have to fly to the US for medical treatment.

www.browndailyherald.com

Undergraduate Vincent Zhou takes second at figure skating U.S. championships

Serving the Brown University community since 1891
www.browndailyherald.com www.browndailyherald.com

Herald: How did the *********-19 ********* impact your training regimen?

Zhou: When lockdown happened, I flew to the United States to gain access to health insurance. I got stuck in Colorado Springs. It was difficult to do any on-ice training but I made sure to stay fit. One of my coaches found a little barn with a sheet of ice and someone who was willing to let me stay and practice on it. I could barely do anything but it was better than nothing. I got lucky because I was able to return the ice sooner than most people.
Click to expand...
Also, here in the US, we live in a litigious society, in which coaches can be sued for using Russian/Eastern training methods. The moment that a kid says, “Mommy, she called me fat!” …or…”Mommy, he touched my leg and tried to stretch me!” Watch out. Rigorous dietary habits and touching limbs to correct positions are normal in Russian sports and ballet academies.
 
Had so much to do today besides watching US and Canadian nationals. Was wondering did Alysa even have to petition? Because I thought with a petition you had to present your case blah blah blah submit it to the Federation they had to go over it but they already named her to the team so I’m wondering if they just named her to the team without her even submitting a petition?
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
Had so much to do today besides watching US and Canadian nationals. Was wondering did Alysa even have to petition? Because I thought with a petition you had to present your case blah blah blah submit it to the Federation they had to go over it but they already named her to the team so I’m wondering if they just named her to the team without her even submitting a petition?
Click to expand...
There is a form - scroll down to Page 30 here - https://www.usfigureskating.org/sit... Olympic Games Selection Procedures FINAL.pdf
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
But did she do it though? Or did they just name her without her doing it? Because I thought there was a whole process…
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The petition has to be turned in no less than 2 hours before the International Committee meets. Since she is a minor, all it needed was her dad's signature or to be sent from his email. I cannot imagine that Arthur Liu didn't have that taken care of before the Women's FS even got under way last night.
 
Skibean said:
All this attention on Levito- I though Lindsey had the better jump technique and looked less of a junior.
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I agree. I don't like much of Thorngren's skating or movement quality except for her jumps, which are a lot lighter and have more ease to them, and she doesn't hunch into them and wrench them vertical. I wish I could graft her jumps onto the rest of Levito's skating.
 
kwanfan1818 said:
I agree. I don't like much of Thorngren's skating or movement quality except for her jumps, which are a lot lighter and have more ease to them, and she doesn't hunch into them and wrench them vertical. I wish I could graft her jumps onto the rest of Levito's skating.
Click to expand...
It’s kind of like a Sasha Cohen and Sarah Hughes situation. Actually, nvm, Sasha had better jumps than Sarah but Sarah just landed them more.
 
VGThuy said:
Wakaba is but she’s also prone to URs except on really good days for her. Kaori isn’t. There are some others but they’ve come on the scene as seniors during this cycle. At Japanese nationals, both Kaori and Wakaba landed six triples same as Mariah while Karen went for 7.

The US is behind and honestly need to maximize their GOE with lesser jumps that are of high quality and fully rotated. It doesn’t serve them well to go after 3/3s that may not garner then the same GOE because unfortunately that’s where we’re at. IJS rewards higher quality elements. You go after harder content when you can actually rotate them and rotate them well. Rewarding attempts just because you attempted it despite quality is how we ended up with a mess of young skaters with promising triples and 3/3s only to get beaten up by international callers and garner reputations where they are more scrutinized that other skaters who don’t have such reputations. And then their confidence gets hit and so on and so forth. US coaching really needs to address the deficit in teaching proper jump technique and skating skills…they needed to do that for over ten years now. I think that’s why people went crazy over Gracie because she had those proper jumps that were huge and the ice coverage and speed to compete internationally.
Click to expand...
I think someone already commented that Kaori did 7 triples not 6, but Wakaba didn't do 6 either. She did 8 (7 fully rotated).

3A
3Lz-3T
3S
2A
3Lz-3T<
3Lo-2T-2Lo
3F!
 
clairecloutier said:
I was thinking about the triple/triple issue for U.S. women.

If you leave out the Russian women, what other women skaters in the world are regularly landing fully ratified 3/3s?

By "regularly," I mean that they hit maybe 50% of competitive attempts without URs, DGs, etc.
Click to expand...

I looked at just results from this season for this. I might have missed a couple 3-2 in the FS as pops, since I'm just checking quickly. But I think these all qualify by your criteria.
  • Madeline Schizas (CAN)
  • Kaori Sakamoto (JPN)
  • Mana Kawabe (JPN)
  • Mai Mihara (JPN)
  • Rino Matsuike (JPN) *I think, she was around the bubble
  • Loena Hendrickx (BEL)
  • Eva Lotta Kiibus (EST)
  • Anastasia Gubanova (GEO) *really a Russian women though
  • Viktoria Safonova (BLR) *same as Gubanova

Maybe also Yelim - I haven't checked the ranking comp but I feel like she's been around 50/50 this year?

I'm sure there's more, I just got bored of checking. And I didn't look at people who are mainly juniors.
 
RoseRed said:
I looked at just results from this season for this. I might have missed a couple 3-2 in the FS as pops, since I'm just checking quickly. But I think these all qualify by your criteria.
  • Madeline Schizas (CAN)
  • Kaori Sakamoto (JPN)
  • Mana Kawabe (JPN)
  • Mai Mihara (JPN)
  • Rino Matsuike (JPN) *I think, she was around the bubble
  • Loena Hendrickx (BEL)
  • Eva Lotta Kiibus (EST)
  • Anastasia Gubanova (GEO) *really a Russian women though
  • Viktoria Safonova (BLR) *same as Gubanova

Maybe also Yelim - I haven't checked the ranking comp but I feel like she's been around 50/50 this year?

I'm sure there's more, I just got bored of checking. And I didn't look at people who are mainly juniors.
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Add Shabotova of Ukraine; Petrokina of Estonia; doesn’t Poland’s Kurakova also have a 3-3? All of Russian origin. All will be in Beijing. (Or…we’ll find out next week about who will represent Estonia…Petrokina or Kiibus.)
 
Last edited:
I love Kilbus but if Estonia doesn't send Petrokina, there should be a riot.

Doesn't Rybova also have a 3-3?
 
VGThuy said:
Technically, a bunch of American women landed 3/3s at nationals…in the SP, where it’s necessary.
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Necessary in the US. So pack it in the cub board for the free program? Pathetic parochial thinking.
 
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