U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

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All this attention on Levito- I though Lindsey had the better jump technique and looked less of a junior. She is really being overlooked.

I also don’t see the comparison of Levito/Cohen. At all. Sasha never had the difficult jumps or secure landings. Maybe body type, but I don’t get the skating comparison. Maybe I’ll have to watch her skate again, but I don’t see it
 
layman said:
A former Nationals competitor breaks down Levito's jump technique:
www.youtube.com

U.S. Nationals 2022 Scoring FIASCO | Former Competitive Figure Skater Reacts

Hello everyone! The U.S. Figure Skating Championships is always exciting and 2022 has not failed to live up to that excitement. There are a bunch of things t...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
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The judges... nationally and internationally... don't care about pre-rotation. It's not a thing. Lot's of skaters... Russians even(!) do this without penalty. I understand that a lot of people care about it. Maybe the judges should... but they don't.
 
Vagabond said:
If you look at the protocols for Russian Nationals, you will see that every single one of them did a 3+3 in the SP and that all except for one of them did either a lutz or a flip combination. You will also see that all of them except Tutkamyshheva and Samodurova did either a 4+3, 4+2, 4+1+3, 3+3, or a 3+1+3 in the FS.


👓
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I see a lot of - GOE and >, q next to these 3-3s, especially as you go to the bottom of the standings. So they try them and underrotate or splat outright. Mariah and Karen both did 3-3s in the short and Karen's were downgraded in LP. USFS still is in the habit of rewarding clean skating instead of risk.
 
Karen-W said:
Well, I'm going off the entries list which shows the USFS intends on sending 1 senior woman, 2 junior women and 2 advanced novice girls to compete. @Sylvia would have a better idea which of the women competing in the junior women at Nats are age-eligible for juniors internationally. I think that Elyce Lin-Gracey was the highest ranked novice lady, so she seems like an obvious choice for one of the advanced novice girls spots.
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Elyce Lin-Gracey is 14 (born June 7, 2007) so I believe she would have to compete junior internationally.

Bios: https://online.flippingbook.com/view/863039056/46/
 
Karen-W said:
Well, I'm going off the entries list which shows the USFS intends on sending 1 senior woman, 2 junior women and 2 advanced novice girls to compete. @Sylvia would have a better idea which of the women competing in the junior women at Nats are age-eligible for juniors internationally. I think that Elyce Lin-Gracey was the highest ranked novice lady, so she seems like an obvious choice for one of the advanced novice girls spots.
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In past years the top novices would always debut as juniors in spring internationals to gain experience if they were old enough, and skaters were entered as novices only when they were very promising but too young for juniors. (Nathan Chen and Karen Chen are two I can remember for sure.) I haven’t followed as much in recent years, so I don’t know if there have been exceptions. But I would expect that if we send Elyce Lin-Gracey, she’d probably compete as a junior since google tells me she’s at least 14. If we send novice entries, they’re probably younger than that. But who knows if it will look like a good idea to send tweens abroad this spring.

It will be interesting to see if we send a senior lady - I agree it would most likely be someone who doesn’t have minimum TES yet.
 
layman said:
I don't know...Levito's triples are so Julia Lipnitskaya...will she even have triples by the time she is senior age-eligible? The shelf life for this type of technique (as we have seen) is very brief. If she grows any...well, we all know how it goes.
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I thought the same thing. Her technique reminds me of how Tutberidze students jump.
 
@olympic I agree with pretty much everything you said but Lindsay is age eligible and had the best 3-3 combo in the SP, as well as a 3-3 in the FS.
 
layman said:
I don't know...Levito's triples are so Julia Lipnitskaya...will she even have triples by the time she is senior age-eligible? The shelf life for this type of technique (as we have seen) is very brief. If she grows any...well, we all know how it goes.
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No probably not. She is barely holding on as it is right now.
 
soogar said:
I see a lot of - GOE and >, q next to these 3-3s, especially as you go to the bottom of the standings. So they try them and underrotate or splat outright. Mariah and Karen both did 3-3s in the short and Karen's were downgraded in LP.
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I know that I annoy some people when I get pedantic, but I am going to step up on my :soapbox: all the same. :violin:

The term "downgraded" means that the jump was called as being more than 180 degrees underrotated, is marked as "<<," and receives the same base value as a fully rotated jump with one lesser rotation (e.g., as a 2T instead of a 3T), hence the term "downgraded." Chen's triple toe loop was most certainly not downgraded.

Yes, there were more "q," "<," and "<<" marks at Russian Nationals, but that is because the FSFR is somewhat more stringent than USFS.[/PEDANTIC RANT]
 
toddlj said:
The judges... nationally and internationally... don't care about pre-rotation. It's not a thing. Lot's of skaters... Russians even(!) do this without penalty. I understand that a lot of people care about it. Maybe the judges should... but they don't.
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The problem is that Levito's jumps are pre-rotated and under-rotated (which the judges do on occasion care about).
 
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Jarrett said:
No probably not. She is barely holding on as it is right now.
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:rofl::rofl:
The path to seniors is paved with the tears and injuries of juniors who never make it to have a long successful senior career.

Levito however, had two of the best skates of the woman's competition. She's been doing that jump layout in the short and long all season long. What she does tomorrow or the next competition who knows, but to say she's barely holding on now...

That assertion has no basis on reality. She held her own.
 
I'm more worried about her back. Using your back to jump is just awful technique. If you look at skaters like Jason, Nathan, Mariah, Liza, Loena, Gabby, Kaetlyn, etc. who have maintained big jumps well into adulthood one of the biggest themes is they have great posture into the jump.

Good jump technique involves using the leg strength and force from knee bend (see Keegan, Shoma, and Nobunari Oda) to vault up into the air and upper body checking/twisting to create rotation. This creates height and distance to allow for rotation. This is also why Kori Ade's students seem to have such clean technique - good posture, good knee bend, and clean clear checking. It is very bad technique to use the back for force because it can lift you up, but can't create nearly the height or distance legs can. Similarly, the knees are not designed to twist and leading your rotation from the legs isn't as effective. This technique works when you're younger because lifting and rotating a smaller body is easier, but doesn't work when your body is bugger.
 
Mayra said:
:rofl::rofl:
... but to say she's barely holding on now...

That assertion has no basis on reality. She held her own.
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Yes...thanks to generous marking and the judges overlooking the technical issues but eventually she will face a judging panel/technical callers that are not so generous.

Also, Isabeau will...eventually...grow. The concern is that her current technique will not sustain her past a growth spurt.

So, the US Nationals judges may have thought they were doing her a favor by overlooking technical issues but in the long run...these problems will have to be addressed, if she is to continue in the sport and correct marking would have given her team the incentive to work on these things rather than giving them the impression that everything is fine.
 
Willin said:
I'm more worried about her back. Using your back to jump is just awful technique. If you look at skaters like Jason, Nathan, Mariah, Liza, Loena, Gabby, Kaetlyn, etc. who have maintained big jumps well into adulthood one of the biggest themes is they have great posture into the jump.

Good jump technique involves using the leg strength and force from knee bend (see Keegan, Shoma, and Nobunari Oda) to vault up into the air and upper body checking/twisting to create rotation. This creates height and distance to allow for rotation. This is also why Kori Ade's students seem to have such clean technique - good posture, good knee bend, and clean clear checking. It is very bad technique to use the back for force because it can lift you up, but can't create nearly the height or distance legs can. Similarly, the knees are not designed to twist and leading your rotation from the legs isn't as effective. This technique works when you're younger because lifting and rotating a smaller body is easier, but doesn't work when your body is bugger.
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Agree...look what that technique did to the backs (and careers) of Medvedeva and Turysenbaeva.
 
Mayra said:
:rofl::rofl:
The path to seniors is paved with the tears and injuries of juniors who never make it to have a long successful senior career.

Levito however, had two of the best skates of the woman's competition. She's been doing that jump layout in the short and long all season long. What she does tomorrow or the next competition who knows, but to say she's barely holding on now...

That assertion has no basis on reality. She held her own.
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Um actually they are based on reality unlike the caller at U.S. Nationals.
 
layman said:
Yes...thanks to generous marking and the judges overlooking the technical issues but eventually she will face a judging panel/technical callers that are not so generous.
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JGP Austria
SP Score: 71.32
LP Score: 136.99

JGP Courchevel 2
SP Score: 71.25
LP Score: 131.10

US Nationals:
SP Score: 71.00
LP Score: 139.75

Those JGP scores are with 1 less element in the LP vs in her senior program LP at Nationals.

Her scoring has been more consistent than any other US lady. I'm sure she'll run into Shin Amano one fine day, but under the current judging system, she's held her own.
 
Mayra said:
JGP Austria
SP Score: 71.32
LP Score: 136.99

JGP Courchevel 2
SP Score: 71.25
LP Score: 131.10

US Nationals:
SP Score: 71.00
LP Score: 139.75

Those JGP scores are with 1 less element in the LP vs in her senior program LP at Nationals.

Her scoring has been more consistent than any other US lady. I'm sure she'll run into Shin Amano one fine day, but under the current judging system, she's held her own.
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The current judging systems favors skaters like Levito (Shcherbakova, Zagitova, Medvedeva, Lipnitskaya...)...until it doesn't. That is to say it favors them until they grow, but they all do...eventually...grow.

We are now seeing Shcherbakova on the other side of this...chronic injuries...struggles on the ice...generous propping and help from the judges to hang on...then premature retirement. They all go through this.
 
Trillian said:
I agree. I don’t think it’s a lost cause, but it does need to be a focus for improvement ASAP or it’s hard to imagine her keeping the jumps after a growth spurt. A handful of other young American girls have had innate star quality in the last fifteen years, she’s just the first “baby ballerina” throwback we’ve seen skate that well in a while. I’m personally glad we’re not trying to force every talented 14-year-old into that mold anymore. That said, she pulls that style off beautifully and the star quality is real. I hope she can continue to improve over the next few years.
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Agree, as I said in the PBP thread, she reminds me so much of Jenny Kirk circa 2000, when she never (or rarely) missed a triple
 
Skibean said:
All this attention on Levito- I though Lindsey had the better jump technique and looked less of a junior. She is really being overlooked.

I also don’t see the comparison of Levito/Cohen. At all. Sasha never had the difficult jumps or secure landings. Maybe body type, but I don’t get the skating comparison. Maybe I’ll have to watch her skate again, but I don’t see it
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You did watch her program last night, didn't you? And Levito's? There's a very good reason one is getting more attention than the other.
 
Interesting that the alternates were listed in the following order: Lindsay Thorngren, Amber Glenn, Gabbie Izzo - so looks like they named Lindsay as 1st alternate. Kinda surprising but I suppose that her solid SP here at Nats as well as her qualifying for the JGPF helped her case.
 
mpal2 said:
Looks like they are keeping the Olympic alternates away from possible crud exposure at Four Continents. Except for the 3rd alt.
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Nah. Amber isn't going to be able to compete at 4CCs in 10 days what with her being symptomatic with the crud right now. Lindsay will get Jr Worlds. The only surprise to me was Andrews over Harrell for 4CCs.
 
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