USFS Team Envelopes 2024-25 Updated

[Karen-W]

So, I just noticed the USFS has updated the Team Envelopes for the upcoming season - https://www.usfigureskating.org/skate/scholarships-and-funding/team-usa-funding

Team A​

WOMEN​

Amber Glenn
Isabeau Levito
Ava Ziegler

MEN​

Ilia Malinin

PAIRS​

Ellie Kam and Danny O'Shea

ICE DANCE​

Madison Chock and Evan Bates

Synchronized

TBA

Team B​

WOMEN​

Starr Andrews
Sarah Everhardt
Josephine Lee
Elyce Lin-Gracey
Clare Seo
Lindsay Thorngren

MEN​

Jason Brown
Tomoki Hiwatashi
Jimmy Ma
Maxim Naumov
Camden Pulkinen
Andrew Torgashev

PAIRS​

Emily Chan and Spencer Howe
Alisa Efimova and Misha Mitrofanov
Isabelle Martins and Ryan Bedard
Katie McBeath and Daniil Parkman
Valentina Plazas and Maximiliano Fernandez

ICE DANCE​

Emily Bratti and Ian Somerville
Christina Carreira and Anthony Ponomarenko
Caroline Green and Michael Parsons
Leah Neset and Artem Markelov
Eva Pate and Logan Bye
Emilea Zingas and Vadym Kolesnik

SYNCHRONIZED​

TBA

Team C​

WOMEN​

Logan Higase-Chen
Keira Hilbelink
Mia Kalin
Cleo Park
Bradie Tennell
Sherry Zhang

MEN​

Aleksandr Fegan
Lucius Kazanecki
Daniel Martynov
Yaroslav Paniot
Jacob Sanchez
Taira Shinohara
Beck Strommer

PAIRS​

Sydney Cooke and Matthew Kennedy
Nica Digerness and Mark Sadusky
Olivia Flores and Luke Wang
Ellie Korytek and Timmy Chapman
Naomi Williams and Lachlan Lewer

ICE DANCE​

Oona Brown and Gage Brown
Isabella Flores and Ivan Desyatov
Kaitlin Hawayek and Jean-Luc Baker
Olivia Ilin and Dylan Cain
Elliana Peal and Ethan Peal

SYNCHRONIZED​

TBA

Team D​

WOMEN​

Annika Chao
Jasmine Clarke
Jiaying Ellyse Johnson
Hannah Kim
Emilia Nemirovsky
Angela Shao
Elena Wilson
Zhiqi Zhang

MEN​

Ryan Azadpour
Nicholas Brooks
Lorenzo Elano
Caleb Farrington
August Perthus
Marlo Rosen
Ryedin Rudedenman
Alek Tankovic

PAIRS​

Saya Carpenter and Jon Maravilla
Jolena Grohne and Reede Lunt
Sofia Jarmoc and Luke Witkowski
Reagan Moss and Jakub Galbavy

ICE DANCE​

Kristina Bland and Matthew Sperry
Michelle Deych and Ryan Hu
Anaelle Kouevi and Yann Homawoo
Caroline Mullen and Brendan Mullen
Jasmine Robertson and Cooper Cornwell

SYNCHRONIZED​

TBA

I've got some questions, based upon the announced criteria -

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2024-2025%20Athlete%20Support%20Funding%20Criteria.pdf

Team A - shouldn't Jason Brown and Carreira/Ponomarenko be in Tier A2?

Team B - Looks like USFS decided to bump Tomoki Hiwatashi up from Tier C1; but at the same time demoted Flores/Wang (should be Tier B1) and Brown/Brown (should be Tier B2) down to Team C...

Team C - Neither Lucas Broussard nor Michael Xie are listed for any team envelope funding even though they met the criteria for Tier C1; Hawayek/Baker have been assigned to Team C so is there some chance they might compete after all? And Mullen/Mullen (should be Tier C1) were demoted to Team D...

Team D - clearly someone hasn't been told that Bland/Sperry are done and don't need team funding after all.

 

[YukiNieve]

Neither Lucas Broussard nor Michael Xie are listed for any team envelope funding even though they met the criteria for Tier C1;

What are the criteria they met？(I am not questioning, just curious)

ETA　I think I got it. It is based on 2023-24 World Standing (Junior), I guess?
Is it so unclear if they mean which WS they are based on.

 

[ice coverage]

... Team B - Looks like USFS ... demoted Flores/Wang (should be Tier B1) ...

Team C - Neither Lucas Broussard nor Michael Xie are listed for any team envelope funding even though they met the criteria for Tier C1 ...

My two cents:

I think the criteria could be written more clearly, but for the last criteria listed for Tiers A2, B1, B2, and C1, USFS has been using the same language going back for years -- long before the advent in 2023 of ISU's junior-only version of world standings.
I believe (ETA: for the criteria of this type) USFS is basing all four tiers on the original (what I will call "big") version of world standings (combination of senior and junior), and not the new junior-only version of world standings. And basing all four tiers on the one list of season's best scores for both senior and junior.
I think changing the word order to what I have written below would better convey what I believe USFS always has had in mind (ETA: for the criteria of this type).

For Tier A2: for senior athletes and teams, Top 1-6 in season’s best scores or world standings for the 2023-24 season
For Tier B1: for senior athletes and teams, Top 7-12 in season’s best scores or world standings for the 2023-24 season
For Tier B2: for senior athletes and teams, Top 13-24 in season’s best scores or world standings for the 2023-24 season
For Tier C1: for junior athletes and teams, Top 1-24 in season’s best scores or world standings for the 2023-24 season​

So for USFS envelopes, I don't think it counts that in junior-only version of world standings, Flores/Wang are #6; Broussard #8; Xie #24. In the "big" version of world standings: F/W are #40; Broussard #52; Xie #93.
Season's best scores: F/W #22; Broussard #49; Xie #74. But because F/W were a junior team in 2023-24, I don't think they meet Tier B2 criterion.

So I think USFS did follow its intended criteria in placing Flores/Wang in Team C (Tier 1). I'm not seeing at all why you think they should be as high as Tier B1?
And sadly, I think USFS did follow its intended criteria in not listing Broussard or Xie in any envelope.

... And Mullen/Mullen (should be Tier C1) were demoted to Team D...

I think Mullens do belong in Team D (Tier 1). They placed 5th in junior at Nats.
I like them a lot, but I'm not seeing at all why you think they should be Tier C1? Or Tier C2, for that matter.
Even in junior-only world standings, Mullens are #33. On season's best list, #82.

 

[Debbie S]

So it's world standings, not Worlds placements, that are used? Like Karen, I'm confused as to why Jason and. C/P aren't in A2.

 

[farahfan]

I guess this confirms that N/M are moving up to seniors?

 

[ice coverage]

So it's world standings, not Worlds placements, that are used? ...

Can't tell whether my post above prompted your initial question?
I was not suggesting that world standings are the only criterion -- I wrote a lot about world standings only because I was responding about Flores/Wang, Broussard, and Xie. I have gone back to add a few words that I hope will help.

... Like Karen, I'm confused as to why Jason and. C/P aren't in A2.

Yes, I agree that Jason and C/P belong in Tier A2.
They met the A2 criterion of: "Placements 4th – 10th at the 2024 ISU World Figure Skating Championships."

I guess this confirms that N/M are moving up to seniors?

Why exactly would N/M's envelope be confirmation of moving up??

 

[Frau Muller]

So Josephine Lee is on team B senior list? Age eligible this coming season? Good news.

 

[ice coverage]

So Josephine Lee is on team B senior list? Age eligible this coming season? Good news.

USFS envelopes are not designated as "senior" or "junior" or anything of the kind.

Josephine Lee will not be age-eligible for senior internationals in 2024-25. She does not turn 17 until 2025.

 

[farahfan]

Can't tell whether my post above prompted your initial question?
I was not suggesting that world standings are the only criterion -- I wrote a lot about world standings only because I was responding about Flores/Wang, Broussard, and Xie. I have gone back to add a few words that I hope will help.



Yes, I agree that Jason and C/P belong in Tier A2.
They met the A2 criterion of: "Placements 4th – 10th at the 2024 ISU World Figure Skating Championships."



Why exactly would N/M's envelope be confirmation of moving up??

I thought B was for seniors. But on second look the WJC can be there too.

 

[PRlady]

Where are Wolfkostin /Tsarevski? Did I miss a breakup announcement?

 

[ice coverage]

Where are Wolfkostin /Tsarevski? ...

Wolfkostin/Tsarevski did not meet any of the criteria for any tier of envelope funding.
Their placement of 9th at Nats missed the cut.

 

[Karen-W]

Where are Wolfkostin /Tsarevski? Did I miss a breakup announcement?

No, they simply didn't meet the Team Envelope criteria.

@ice coverage - the B2 criteria specifically states Top 13-24 on the Season’s Best or World Standings - Flores/Wang are #22 on the Season’s Best list (which is a sr/jr combined list), likewise the Browns are #19 on the Season’s Best list. I don't see any valid reason why either team is only getting Team C funding when they both clearly meet the Team B criteria.

The last bullet point of the C1 criteria specifically states 1-24 on the Season’s Best or World Standings for junior athletes and seems explicitly separate from the wording used for B2 which states senior skaters/teams. If the intent is to use the combined World Standings lists for ALL Team Envelope criteria then why have the final bullet points read as follows:

Team B2 - Top 13-24 in season's best or world standings for the 2023-24 season for senior athletes and teams
Team C1 - Top 1-24 in season's best or world standings for the 2023-24 season for junior athletes and teams

By your rationale, there would be no need for the last bullet point in C1 to exist because any junior skater or team that finishes in the Top 1-24 season's best or world standings combined lists (which include all senior and junior scores/points) would have received A or B Envelope status already - their status as a senior or junior skater is irrelevant. It does not make any logical sense to exclude Broussard (Jr WS 8), Xie (Jr WS 24) or the Mullens (Jr SB 18) from Tier C2 since the wording explicitly is using the JUNIOR lists.

ETA - I can see a bit of wiggle room for the Mullens if only because there is not a separate junior-only SB list and the only way to figure out where any skater or team would rank on a junior-only SB is to remove any skaters/teams who only competed in senior events this past season and compile a separate list.

 

[Sylvia]

FWIW, I've brought up quite a few of these issues and questions when I saw the envelopes online last week and am waiting to hear back. So I would not assume this is the "final" list.

 

[Sylvia]

Just a reminder that USFS' International Selection Pool is separate from the team envelopes: https://www.usfigureskating.org/skate/qualify-for-team-usa

"The International Selection Pool (ISP) includes junior- and senior-level athletes and teams who meet criteria approved by the U.S. Figure Skating International Committee. These athletes and teams are eligible to be considered for assignment to international competitions."

ETA:

The ISP is a fluid list and skaters/teams can be added based on monitoring and/or performances in competitions - I previously posted the current lists in the individual discipline threads in early April:

Men (40): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-men-2023-24-news-updates.110812/page-19#post-6583858

Women (41): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...n-the-dance-floor.111091/page-29#post-6583837

Pairs (11; Reagan Moss/Jakub Galbavy J6 have since been added since he has been released by SVK): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...any-teams-we-have.110747/page-26#post-6583874

Ice Dance (should be 19 with the splits of Hauer/Starr, Carhart/Horovyi, Bland/Sperry-not yet removed from the ISP or D team envelope ): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...3-24-news-updates.110811/page-33#post-6583870

When the 2024-25 news thread by discipline are created (after the GP assignments are published in June?) I can copy over the relevant team envelope & ISP lists like I did last year.

 

[ice coverage]

... Tier C2 since the wording explicitly is using the JUNIOR lists. ...

No, the exact USFS wording never says, "junior lists". That was the crux of my point above.

... @ice coverage - the B2 criteria specifically states Top 13-24 on the Season’s Best or World Standings - Flores/Wang are #22 on the Season’s Best list (which is a sr/jr combined list), likewise the Browns are #19 on the Season’s Best list. I don't see any valid reason why either team is only getting Team C funding when they both clearly meet the Team B criteria.

The last bullet point of the C1 criteria specifically states 1-24 on the Season’s Best or World Standings for junior athletes and seems explicitly separate from the wording used for B2 which states senior skaters/teams. If the intent is to use the combined World Standings lists for ALL Team Envelope criteria then why have the final bullet points read as follows:

Team B2 - Top 13-24 in season's best or world standings for the 2023-24 season for senior athletes and teams
Team C1 - Top 1-24 in season's best or world standings for the 2023-24 season for junior athletes and teams

By your rationale, there would be no need for the last bullet point in C1 to exist because any junior skater or team that finishes in the Top 1-24 season's best or world standings combined lists (which include all senior and junior scores/points) would have received A or B Envelope status already - their status as a senior or junior skater is irrelevant. It does not make any logical sense to exclude Broussard (Jr WS 8), Xie (Jr WS 24) or the Mullens (Jr SB 18) from Tier C2 since the wording explicitly is using the JUNIOR lists.

ETA - I can see a bit of wiggle room for the Mullens if only because there is not a separate junior-only SB list and the only way to figure out where any skater or team would rank on a junior-only SB is to remove any skaters/teams who only competed in senior events this past season and compile a separate list.

I hope you will go back and re-read my first post, where I already addressed everything that you are saying here.
(I never have mentioned Oona/Gage Brown in this thread, because I always have agreed that USFS should have put them in Tier B2.)

To recap what I said before with respect to to F/W, Broussard, Xie, and Mullens:

Even well before 2023, when the ISU created the junior-only WS list, earlier versions of USFS criteria going back numerous seasons already used the same language -- including word order -- of:​

(for C1) "Top 1-24 in season’s best scores or world standings for the 2023-24 season for junior athletes and teams"
(for A2, B1, B2) "Top X-Y in season’s best scores or world standings for the 2023-24 season for senior athletes and teams"​

(The criteria for earlier seasons of course referred to the correct preceding season at the time, not to 2023-24.
But otherwise, the criteria for earlier seasons used the exact same language and word order.)​

ETA: For example, I have added link to USFS criteria for 2019-20 to the bottom of this post.​

USFS obviously could not have intended to use the junior-only WS list before it even existed.
With USFS invoking the exact same language to this day, I do not think USFS is using the junior-only WS list now either.

For this type of criteria (involving WS and SB), the USFS language was not well-written to begin with (even before the junior-only WS list existed) -- and better writing definitely is needed now.
As I said before, it would help to change the word order.
Especially if USFS going forward wants to continue to use only the "big" WS list that combines junior and senior, I think it would help to move "for junior athletes and teams" to the beginning of the WS/SB criterion for C1; and to move "for senior athletes and teams" to the beginning of the WS/SB criterion for A2, B1, and B2.​

ETA:​

I looked up the USFS document re envelope criteria for 2019-20 season, for example.
From Tier C1 criteria:​

"Top 24 in season’s best scores for the 2018-19 season for junior athletes and teams
Top 24 in world standings for the 2018-19 season for junior athletes and teams"​

https://usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2019-20%20Team%20Envelope%20Criteria.pdf

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Lucas can still be assigned to some B competitions despite not having any envelope funding, correct?

 

[Sylvia]

Yes, Broussard is listed in the ISP - refer to post #14.

 

[Sylvia]

UPDATES:

Jason and Carreira/Ponomareneko have been moved from B to A.
Brown/Brown and Hawayek/Baker have been moved from C to B.

 

[Wyliefan]

Good!

 

[Karen-W]

For this type of criteria (involving WS and SB), the USFS language was not well-written to begin with (even before the junior-only WS list existed) -- and better writing definitely is needed now.

As I said before, it would help to change the word order.​

Especially if USFS going forward wants to continue to use only the "big" WS list that combines junior and senior, I think it would help to move "for junior athletes and teams" to the beginning of the WS/SB criterion for C1; and to move "for senior athletes and teams" to the beginning of the WS/SB criterion for A2, B1, and B2.​

ETA:​

I looked up the USFS document re envelope criteria for 2019-20 season, for example.​

From Tier C1 criteria:​

"Top 24 in season’s best scores for the 2018-19 season for junior athletes and teams​

Top 24 in world standings for the 2018-19 season for junior athletes and teams"​

https://usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2019-20%20Team%20Envelope%20Criteria.pdf

Okay, that makes more sense. I do agree, though I sort of feel like any and all junior skaters who finish 2nd or 3rd at Jr Worlds or medal at the JGPF should be eligible for Team B funding - especially if they, like Flores/Wang, are also in the SB Top 24. That seems at least equal to winning Jr Worlds.

 

[Sylvia]

Ice Dance (should be 19 with the splits of Hauer/Starr, Carhart/Horovyi, Bland/Sperry-not yet removed from the ISP or D team envelope ): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...3-24-news-updates.110811/page-33#post-6583870

Bland/Sperry's names were removed today from both the Team D envelope and the Ice Dance ISP list (ETA that teams and/or their coaches have to notify USFS officially of their respective splits for this to happen): https://www.usfigureskating.org/skate/qualify-for-team-usa#IceDance

 

[YukiNieve]

I hope they double-check the accuracy before publishing the list.

 

[Karen-W]

I hope they double-check the accuracy before publishing the list.

or at least read their own requirements and make sure all the skaters/teams are in the correct envelopes per the criteria before publishing, lol

 

[zebobes]

Why take the time to do that if they can rely on the fans double-checking everything for them for free?

 

[MacMadame]

Why take the time to do that if they can rely on the fans double-checking everything for them for free?

I'm sure the skaters are checking too. It impacts them more than us.

 

[Karen-W]

I'm sure the skaters are checking too. It impacts them more than us.

Them or their parents, lol! Goodness knows, if I was having to fund my kid's elite skating, I'd be fighting and digging for every scrap of money.