U.S. Ladies [#24]: Starr-Ting Order/Detailed Classification

[olympic]

I do not think Alysa gets great lift on the 3axel at all. I didn't say her jumps were cheated, though the first video that Tinami posted of the 3axel was definitely a questionable < toe landing to me. I have seen other 3axels of hers that were clean. Alysa does not have good kick-through on the axel.

This is great kick-through and lift: https://youtu.be/b8JbwKIc4tw?t=29

Watch the free leg action in this video of ladies 3axels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uhsBZHicHs

Compare Ito and Harding's technique to Nakano and Asada. See how Ito and Harding's free leg goes well past the skating leg? How they "step up" into the jump? That is solid, ideal axel technique. That is technique that will withstand a growth spurt. Alysa doesn't have that technique.

Sigh I miss Ito and Harding (her skating only)

 

[binbinwinwin]

I do not think Alysa gets great lift on the 3axel at all. I didn't say her jumps were cheated, though the first video that Tinami posted of the 3axel was definitely a questionable < toe landing to me. I have seen other 3axels of hers that were clean. Alysa does not have good kick-through on the axel.

This is great kick-through and lift: https://youtu.be/b8JbwKIc4tw?t=29

Watch the free leg action in this video of ladies 3axels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uhsBZHicHs

Compare Ito and Harding's technique to Nakano and Asada. See how Ito and Harding's free leg goes well past the skating leg? How they "step up" into the jump? That is solid, ideal axel technique. That is technique that will withstand a growth spurt. Alysa doesn't have that technique.

Excellent videos! Also to add, good axels should go straight across the ice, such as this 2A here with the distance, it's a straight line. Something that can be seen in Yukari and Mao's axels is that because their free leg in the "kick up" doesn't go that far their axels are done a curve. Ito and Harding's are in a straight line too, excellent technique.

Alysa's instagram videos show pretty clearly that her axel is on a lean and circular too. Actually Medvedeva's axel is circular too but this season she has been going back forth, trying to get it on a straighter line instead of a curve, Orser has been really working on it with her which is I think is why it's been an unstable jump for her this season.

 

[Willin]

I get that this is more about her technique than anything else, but is anyone else uncomfortable with the excessive discussion/criticism about a 12-year-old? Let her be, at least until she's eligible for international Junior/Senior competition. A lot can change in that time.

 

[RoseRed]

I get that this is more about her technique than anything else, but is anyone else uncomfortable with the excessive discussion/criticism about a 12-year-old? Let her be, at least until she's eligible for international Junior/Senior competition. A lot can change in that time.

She's been 13 since August, FYI.

 

[Sylvia]

IMO, @Willin's point is still valid whether Alysa is 12 or 13 (eta that her 13th birthday was on Aug. 8th) but fan analyses/opinions/etc. are going to be posted online as long as there are competition videos and practice clips to scrutinize of someone who is a podium candidate in her upcoming senior debut at Nationals. Hopefully her team around her will keep her grounded and focused on what she needs to do in order to keep improving. I've only met her briefly and she came across to me as a happy girl who enjoys socializing with her fellow skaters.

ETA: She has shown a strong mentality for competing well at a very young age and fingers crossed this will continue.

 

[Willin]

I stand corrected about her age, but it's still inappropriate.

FWIW, I don't think Alysa herself is the sort to read skating fan forums or social media, and the people around her seem pretty grounded. I just don't think we should be discussing anyone that young regardless of whether or not they're reading.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I just don't think we should be discussing anyone that young regardless of whether or not they're reading.

Alysa is 13. Thirteen year olds attend International and National Jr. events. how do you supposed we can avoid talking about 13 year old skaters?

 

[Wyliefan]

She's a promising young skater with a good chance to medal at nationals. You think fans aren't going to discuss her? Of course it should be done with respect, but there's no way to enforce a Cone of Silence about a competitor. Nor should there be.

 

[wickedwitch]

I stand corrected about her age, but it's still inappropriate.

FWIW, I don't think Alysa herself is the sort to read skating fan forums or social media, and the people around her seem pretty grounded. I just don't think we should be discussing anyone that young regardless of whether or not they're reading.

She's choosing to compete as a senior, so her skating will be analyzed as any senior's. Obviously people shouldn't be cruel -- and as far as I can tell, nobody has been -- but people shouldn't be cruel to anyone of any age.

 

[aftershocks]

Eh, discussion is going to happen. I do think that sometimes over-expectations placed on skaters can end up being cruel when those skaters inevitably hit a wall or experience setbacks. In any case, it's likely simply healthier for fans to keep things in perspective. Being more respectful toward skaters might be possible if fans could refrain from excessive slams and dissing, as well as placing over-expectations on young up-and-coming skaters. Everyone has opinions to share and likes and dislikes to add to the conversation. I would try not to become too overly obsessed though. It's just more pleasurable IMO to not over-anticipate, but to allow things to take their natural course, and sit back and enjoy.

Cheer these skaters on, debate and discuss stats and performances, but be realistic that the journey in figure skating is tough and unpredictable. Can we allow skaters to breathe and to experience whatever happens from competition to competition without turning on them and tearing them down? We have plenty of examples of that happening, particularly toward U.S. ladies. In general, these days I'm usually more disappointed in the judging than I am in skaters' performances.

Thanks to @vesperholly for linking the 3-axel videos. Here's an updated video to the 1988 to 2015 video. This one has the same clips of Ito to Tuktamysheva, but it also adds in clips of Rika Kihara and Mirai Nagasu!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmyHxe4zoUU

ETA: I surely can get over-excited about music selections and sometimes I engage in the predictions game for fun, but the intense negativity and the bickering that often goes on is rather off-putting.

 

[SmallFairy]

Thanks for the link @aftershocks
Am I mistaken, or is one of the clips claiming to be Yukari Nakano really of Yosho Onda? She landed the 3a at some point too, didn't she?

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks for the link @aftershocks
Am I mistaken, or is one of the clips claiming to be Yukari Nakano really of Yosho Onda? She landed the 3a at some point too, didn't she?

Maybe so. I find the video not very well constructed (and obviously the visual quality is poor on many of the clips). Also the updated version simply inserted the new clips without introducing a heading of 2015 to 2018. And I don't know if the compiler confused Onda with Kihara.

ETA: On further checking, it does not look like Yoshie Onda was ever credited with landing a 3-axel, and notice the correct spelling of her name. In addition, Onda's physicality is not similar to Kihara's. Perhaps Onda may have landed a quad attempt? We do know that Miki Ando of Japan landed a quad in competition, which is quite rare among the ladies. So that's the next question: How many ladies have landed quads? Ando, perhaps Onda, and now Trusova...

See the below article from 2017 listing the ladies who have landed 3-axels in international competition (Kimmie Meissner is not included btw), so here is Meissner's 3-axel at 2005 U.S. Nationals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWU4YeBNRws
http://www.espn.com/espnw/culture/a...women-skaters-successfully-landed-triple-axel

 

[gkelly]

Off the top of my head, I remember Onda standing up on at least one 3A attempt, but not fully rotated and I don't remember if it was on one foot.

I don't remember her attempting quads.

Surya Bonaly was the first woman to attempt quads in competition. I think a couple were on one foot but none deemed to have been sufficiently rotated.

 

[all_empty]

Off the top of my head, I remember Onda standing up on at least one 3A attempt, but not fully rotated and I don't remember if it was on one foot.

I don't remember her attempting quads.

Surya Bonaly was the first woman to attempt quads in competition. I think a couple were on one foot but none deemed to have been sufficiently rotated.

I think this was Yoshie's best attempt at a 3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcIZzUarRtk

She stepped out or fell on all her other attempts.

Pretty astonishing that she was able to win quite a number of Grand Prix events based on her jumping content.

 

[aftershocks]

I think this was Yoshie's best attempt at a 3A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcIZzUarRtk

The slo-mo replay at the end of her performance clearly shows her landing was under-rotated, plus her free leg did not push out away from her landing leg soon enough.

 

[aftershocks]

Phil Hersh's feature article on Alysa Liu was published yesterday (December 21): https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018...3-is-using-the-present-to-avoid-future-shock/

Thanks for posting @Sylvia, and thanks to Hersh for his coverage and his enthusiasm for figure skating.

And still, ahem, can we not go down this excessive over-excitement road about a 13-year-old figure skater!? Fine that Alysa seemed not to be intimidated by viewing the Russian ladies at JGPF and GPF. Fine that her reaction was to want to get out there and show everyone her 3-axels. I'd be happier if Alysa wanted to show how well-rounded and competitive a skater she can be.

It's fine for Sam Auxier to want to encourage and support Alysa's talent by ensuring she got a chance to experience what these GP junior and senior finals competitions are like. But bejesus, please can we hold our horsies just a little bit? Can we take a step back and remember all the overdone hype and over-expectation by the media surrounding Nathan Chen's Olympic debut and what happened to him!!!? Can we?? Nathan is a cool, solid, determined competitor who doesn't back down, but it was his first Olympics, and shit happens.

I'm interested and eager to see how Alysa will fare going forward, but I'm not on this overdone, excessive hype waiting in the wings to take hold, mindless high expectation rah-rahing, over-focusing on this one talented young lady bandwagon.

I think there is too much over-emphasis in Hersh's article on technical feats vs well-rounded skating, on Alysa being launched into the fray with expectations for her to achieve outsized success, instead of focusing on her overall step-by-step development and her day-to-day normal existence as a young athlete. There were fewer over-hype articles and expectations placed on MK when she was coming up, because it was a different era and MK had not yet stunned the world with her amazing record-breaking consistency, her courage and her grace under pressure.

Let's not forget that during her career, MK transcended figure skating because she's a one-of-a-kind personality who took the stage at a very different time in the evolution of the sport. The powers-that-be among U.S. fed have never seemed to learn any of this yet. Unconsciously and in knee-jerk fashion, they still seem to be waiting for the next Michelle Kwan outsized achiever, but at a more rapid-fire pace. It was simply seen as a curiosity and an anomaly when MK took the senior test against the advice of her coach, and competed at senior Nationals at the age of 12. Can we please wise up that there is never going to be another Michelle Kwan! Can we please stop looking and stop obsessing over 'next young tech-feat hope.' Hey, but if U.S. fed is looking for another abbreviated career Tara Lipinski, then fine, enuf said.

Tara Lipinski opining in this article about Alysa being able to 'win the U.S. championships,' is IMO pretty darn excessive at this point. Slow it down please. Alysa Liu is only 13 and she is very talented athletically. Does that mean we need to rush her right up to first place before she's learned how to fully hold out her moves, and to feel and express the music? Does she need to be over-rewarded on PCS because Russian ladies are being over-rewarded as prepubescents before their bodies fully mature? These young ladies still have a lot of life and a lot of lessons to learn and experience. Let them do that please before wringing the life out of them before they turn 16. Yes, these young ladies have ambitious goals and desires that they have a right to pursue. But at age 13, one's perceptions and understanding are at a limited stage of development, and that reality seems to never be taken into consideration by avid adults, feeding off the talent of precocious young athletes.

In retrospect, it was right for international judges to make Michelle Kwan wait a bit before she was rewarded in 1996 (although their motives were largely political and expedient than anything else). If MK missing out on a medal at 1995 Worlds aided in the more mature performances we saw by MK in 1996, that's a good thing. I vote for quality, maturity and longevity over loaded expectations for wowza 3-axels and quads being performed by pre-teens and teenagers whose bodies and minds are not fully formed.

ETA--
Okay, the article went on to be a little bit more well-rounded in discussing Alysa's daily routine and her relationship with her coach, etc. That's good. And at least Hersh got in there very briefly the fact that Alysa is still an immature performer. Yet still the emphasis and focus in this article is on pushing her and having high expectations, even despite Hersh tacking on the last sentence: "There's no need to rush to the future." Exactly! Nevermind that over-hyping and rushing to the future is what the theme of the entire article is about.

Hersh: "For example: Elizaveta Tuktamysheva was barely 12 when she finished eighth as a senior at Russian nationals in 2010. Tuktamysheva, 22, has gone on to win the 2015 World title and the bronze medal in the senior Grand Prix Final last month."

Aieee!!! So what! Are you considering at all what Liza had to go through over the trajectory of her career? No, you are not Phil Hersh! Every skater is an individual. It was Liza's desire to come back to train hard and continue competing. Many fans thought she was burned out and ready for the scrap heap, no? After her first season as a teenager being over-rewarded, Liza fell on hard times as her body began to mature and she had to work through that phase of her career with the help of Mishin and others who believed in her. Please stop with making simplistic assumptions and inaccurate juxtapositions.

Cool that Alysa Liu cites Kwan and Yuna Kim as skaters she looks up to and hopes to emulate. Alysa must have viewed old tapes or Youtube clips of Kwan's performances, since as we know, MK's career was heading to its final end when Alysa was born in August 2005. It's truly excellent that Alysa is a young skater who looks back at clips of champions from a different era. Hopefully, she has actually watched clips and tapes of Kwan's performances, and is not basing her admiration mostly on knowing about MK's stellar medal-winning record.

 

[UGG]

Regarding gymnastics vs skating... Basically everyone I know who has a daughter has had them in gymnastics at some point. I do not know one person with a child in figure skating. It seems like it is a much more affordable sport to participate in. Also in skating if you are not Olympic caliber, there are no other opportunities to capitalize on. In gymnastics, there are collegiate scholarships or collegiate cheerleading as a possible option which also offers partial and sometimes (but rarely) full scholarships.

 

[vesperholly]

I get that this is more about her technique than anything else, but is anyone else uncomfortable with the excessive discussion/criticism about a 12-year-old? Let her be, at least until she's eligible for international Junior/Senior competition. A lot can change in that time.

I hate the hype machine (dreading how NBC is going to cover Alysa at Nationals) and I hope the technique comments will serve to temper some of the expectations that are heaped on her right now. Alysa is still developing, she's still very young and she's simply not soup yet. It will be exciting to watch her grow and mature, and I sincerely hope that she's given some space to do that.

 

[vesperholly]

Regarding gymnastics vs skating... Basically everyone I know who has a daughter has had them in gymnastics at some point. I do not know one person with a child in figure skating.

That can be region specific. I am in upstate NY and almost every kid gets at least a few years of learn to skate lessons in elementary school. Hockey is huge here and there's a big culture of ice skating - lots and lots of rinks. Not many of the girls go "into" skating seriously, but a lot of girls don't go "into" gymnastics either. They take a few years of lessons to be well-rounded kids and eventually pick the activity that they'll focus on.

 

[UGG]

That can be region specific. I am in upstate NY and almost every kid gets at least a few years of learn to skate lessons in elementary school. Hockey is huge here and there's a big culture of ice skating - lots and lots of rinks. Not many of the girls go "into" skating seriously, but a lot of girls don't go "into" gymnastics either. They take a few years of lessons to be well-rounded kids and eventually pick the activity that they'll focus on.

I am in NJ and hockey is huge here too. I live right by where the Flyers practice. Figure skating seems non existent though ..

 

[Frida80]

Instead of glooming and dooming Alysa already, how about people take more of a proactive approach. Send her a huge check and a letter that looks like this for her Dad.

Congratulations!

I wanted to tell you how impressed I am with your daughter. She a incredible talented girl that clearly works hard. She's made so much progress in the last few years. Even though she didn't win nationals at Novice, I knew she would be a future champion. So thank you for being there for her, encouraging her, and supporting her all this time. She could never have gotten this far without your love and support.

I am concerned about the judging system going forward and especially as she grows. Judges are moving towards immaculate skaters with textbook technique. Knowing this, I really want her to have the super immaculate technique of Yuna Kim and Yuzuru Hanyu. Currently, fewer skaters have that advantage and I'm sure that textbook technique would be secret weapon that always puts her on top. So I've included some jump coaches that will give her that quality to they skate so she not only can be the best skater right now but all time. Included is a check that is earmarked just for a jumping coach. Although, I'm sure your completely aware of this and already have plans to make her a legendary Yuzuru Hanyu skater of her time. I can't wait to see her on the Junior Grand Prix, Junior Worlds and someday the Olympics and Beijing.

Once again, Congratulations!


Forever your fan

(Insert name)

Her Dad all about her gaining new skills to make her competitive. I'm sure if quietly prodded, he'll push her to a coach that can fix her basics and improve her jump quality.

 

[oleada]

Instead of glooming and dooming Alysa already, how about people take more of a proactive approach. Send her a huge check and a letter that looks like this for her Dad.

Congratulations!

I wanted to tell you how impressed I am with your daughter. She a incredible talented girl that clearly works hard. She's made so much progress in the last few years. Even though she didn't win nationals at Novice, I knew she would be a future champion. So thank you for being there for her, encouraging her, and supporting her all this time. She could never have gotten this far without your love and support.

I am concerned about the judging system going forward and especially as she grows. Judges are moving towards immaculate skaters with textbook technique. Knowing this, I really want her to have the super immaculate technique of Yuna Kim and Yuzuru Hanyu. Currently, fewer skaters have that advantage and I'm sure that textbook technique would be secret weapon that always puts her on top. So I've included some jump coaches that will give her that quality to they skate so she not only can be the best skater right now but all time. Included is a check that is earmarked just for a jumping coach. Although, I'm sure your completely aware of this and already have plans to make her a legendary Yuzuru Hanyu skater of her time. I can't wait to see her on the Junior Grand Prix, Junior Worlds and someday the Olympics and Beijing.

Once again, Congratulations!


Forever your fan

(Insert name)

Her Dad all about her gaining new skills to make her competitive. I'm sure if quietly prodded, he'll push her to a coach that can fix her basics and improve her jump quality.

Do NOT do this. This is super creepy. If I had a 12 year old daughter and I got a letter like this, I'd want to run for the hills.

 

[DimaToe]

@Frida80 why should Liu be pushed to a new coach? Should she go to someone like Gambill and Tom Z who are delivering those world medalists non stop? Beyond the skater, it’s time to give unproven coaches a chance and we might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Willin]

Alysa is hardly Laura L's only promising skater. I think it could be exciting to see a new coach on the National scene. It seems there's only a few "options" when skaters look for top coaches and that really limits skaters.
I also think it goes to show the strength in Bay Area coaching: there's aren't any really famous (eg. Rafael, Tom Z, Tammy Gambill, etc.) coaches here right now, but there are a lot of former skaters like Kristi Yamaguchi, Brian Boitano, Rudy Galindo, Charlie Tickner, and Kim Novarro coaching and working with local coaches to produce great skaters.



As for whether she should be discussed, I don't mind people complementing young skaters, but I think it's incredibly premature to criticize and discuss their technique and future based on what they're doing at 12/13. Yes, Alysa has issues as do many skaters her age. By definition they're still learning and molding themselves into the skaters they will one day be. We shouldn't judge them by where they're at or where they're going, but appreciate they're still a work in progress.
So, yes, criticize Alysa's 3A technique all you want and call it a bad sign for the future, but you (and I) have no idea what she's working on or what direction that work is going in as far as the technique. One of my coaches said she'd never get a 3A because her 2A technique was so bad and yet here we are.
There are plenty of skaters much older and with more training (Ashley Wagner, Liza Tuktamysheva, Mirai Nagasu, and Adam Rippon to name a few) that have had careers called "dead" for whatever reason only to have resurgences. There are countless more that were called the next big thing that ended up fizzling out before they even got to Seniors. The point is, we have no idea what the future brings or what the technique predicts even for those that have twice as many years of training and using a set technique. So then what's the point of saying this about skaters that are clearly works in progress, especially at such a young age?

 

[binbinwinwin]

I don't see how I was criticizing her, someone asked a technical question and I added onto it, it was meant to be constructive and informative. The evidence is there, I did not say that she will never keep her jumps, just that her current technique is not ideal. She's still young yes, she could develop into a rock solid technical skater later on as she works her way up and I do hope that her team continues to support her in her journey.

 

[VGThuy]

I mean this is a figure skating forum. Where else can people talk about technique? Someone can provide an analysis and other people can disagree. At least the discussion is only about skating related topics rather than getting her father’s finances or getting into whether these skaters have tiger parents or whatever.

 

[Willin]

@VIETgrlTerifa Well, there was another thread where people tried to talk about her father's finances...

But is it wrong to think it's bad to talk about the technique of someone who is clearly still learning technique? We rarely talk about the technique of, say, Mirai or Bradie even though they've likely been fully taught a technique. No point in criticizing or critiquing someone who's still learning unless you're they're coach. I've also been raised to say it's tacky to have adults discuss the abilities of children that are not their own if that discussion is not solicited by the child or parent. And that's what someone who is 13 is: a child.

 

[oleada]

@VIETgrlTerifa Well, there was another thread where people tried to talk about her father's finances...

But is it wrong to think it's bad to talk about the technique of someone who is clearly still learning technique? We rarely talk about the technique of, say, Mirai or Bradie even though they've likely been fully taught a technique. No point in criticizing or critiquing someone who's still learning unless you're they're coach. I've also been raised to say it's tacky to have adults discuss the abilities of children that are not their own if that discussion is not solicited by the child or parent. And that's what someone who is 13 is: a child.

Do we read different forums? Mirai’s technique was discussed all the time. As has Miyahara’s, Zagitova’s, and basically every other skater ever. Are the only messages that you think people should post are supportive messages? Because that’s not what a discussion forum is for.

 

[VGThuy]

Honestly a lot people here are arm chair critics who really have no place talking about anyone competing as none of us are actively involved in their lives and nor did we invest in their training, no matter how old. I do think since this is a sports forum then sport-related topics are free to discuss but maybe it’ll be wise for all of us to keep in mind that she’s a child. That said, if the Gracie Gold saga taught us anything, it’s that maybe we shouldn’t wait for someone to hit rock bottom before we decide to hold back a bit on more personal comments and criticisms. I still think an athlete’s technique is fair game because it’s not something beyond their control and it is something that is being judged in this sport and will affect their ability to do well in it.

 

[Willin]

@VIETgrlTerifa I agree with your sentiment, especially saying that technique is an important part of discussion. I just don't think we should be discussing children. @oleada For older skaters I think it's fine. For someone Alysa's age, no, it's not fine. She's a child. She's a work in progress. We should be positive and encouraging to them.
The reason why I brought up Mirai and Bradie is because they're some of the ones I think are perfectly fine to talk about technique for (adults, Senior international skaters) and yet I rarely see discussion of their technique. I've certainly seen discussion of Miyahara and Zagitova's technique, but less about the US ladies for whatever reason beyond "oh, Mirai waits on that 3A edge too long" or "Mirai URs."