U.S. Ladies [#26]: Bell, Boots, and Camel

aftershocks

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... and Nathan Chen being the best examples...
Where is Nathan lacking in skating skills though?

The sport should never have completely eliminated the necessity to at least train figures, which might have helped following generations work harder on improving blade skills.

... Nathan has never had weak skating skills.
Thanks, because I was scratching my head at Willin's comment.
 

jlai

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12,019
So agree with this. Skating skills are now more like polishing.
I am not entirely sure Lipinski had better skating skills than Med or Zagitova. And let’s not forget Elvis Stojko who jumped his way to three worlds titles.

The ones that are seriously lacking in ss generally didn’t win worlds but they did and do win world medals and euro titles. That was true then and is true now.

World champions don’t always have the best skating skills but usually they are not deficient in them. Usually not always
 

Willin

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@aftershocks @SkateFanBerlin Well, his skating skills have been good, but there were a heck of a lot of people on this very forum saying he had none and was just doing the good ol skate back and forth and do quads game his first senior season. So I’d say that’s the same: showing no skating skills, winning, and then pulling them out after you start winning on the merit of your jumps.
 

gkelly

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14,521
There are no elite competitors who have "no" skating skills.

Fans often like to hyperbolize. Some judges might also when talking casually, but that doesn't mean they give 0s for their scores.

Some elite competitors who are great jumpers and just "good" skaters compete successfully mainly on the strength of their jumps against outstanding skaters who are just "good" jumpers.

Comparatively, the former have weaker skating skills than the latter. But that's not the same as "none."

Maybe it's the difference between 7s and 9s in PCS.
 

kwanfan1818

I <3 Kozuka
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31,458
There are no elite competitors who have "no" skating skills.
Maybe it's the difference between 7s and 9s in PCS.
It depends on what you mean by "elite.".

I've been to many Euros, 4C's and Worlds where top 10 skaters would fall into the 5's or 6's, based on the criteria. It's remarkable in the basic sense of the word, how many get speed through cross-overs, who slow considerably when they have to use their edges, who pump their backs, and whose knee action is passable, but not much more, sometimes generally, through the program or the second half of a free skate, and sometimes when they lose their legs or are struggling.

I've seen skaters with wonderful skating skills at the bottom of the field who don't have the jumps, but who are rarely rewarded in SS.
 

BittyBug

And the band played on
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21,556
And to that point, I don't think we should confuse the judges' marks for PCS with actual skills displayed. ;)
 

Brenda_Bottems

Active Member
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198
The sport should never have completely eliminated the necessity to at least train figures, which might have helped following generations work harder on improving blade skills.
I certainly hope the United States Figure Skating Association reinstates compulsory figures in competition. It is the clearest path to return figure skating to it's previous glory.

Figure skating used to be art on ice. Now we have choppy gymnastics on ice that panders to millennials and the homosexuals.

I'd prefer to watch 4 hours of precise,glorious compulsory figures over quadruple and triple-triple jumps from pre-pubescent girls anytime. I venture to guess most agree.

-BB
 

Carolla5501

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5,515
I certainly hope the United States Figure Skating Association reinstates compulsory figures in competition. It is the clearest path to return figure skating to it's previous glory.

Figure skating used to be art on ice. Now we have choppy gymnastics on ice that panders to millennials and the homosexuals.

I'd prefer to watch 4 hours of precise,glorious compulsory figures over quadruple and triple-triple jumps from pre-pubescent girls anytime. I venture to guess most agree.

-BB

Another one for the ignore list.

"pandering to homosexuals" At least we aren't pandering to bigots
Bye!
 

olympic

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9,112
I certainly hope the United States Figure Skating Association reinstates compulsory figures in competition. It is the clearest path to return figure skating to it's previous glory.

Figure skating used to be art on ice. Now we have choppy gymnastics on ice that panders to millennials and the homosexuals.

I'd prefer to watch 4 hours of precise,glorious compulsory figures over quadruple and triple-triple jumps from pre-pubescent girls anytime. I venture to guess most agree.

-BB
I am a homosexual. Thanks for the clarification that choppy gymnastics on ice is my thing.

But, wouldn’t the less athletic more effete ‘art on ice’ be more of a homosexual’s thing? :rolleyes:
 
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Brenda_Bottems

Active Member
Messages
198
"pandering to homosexuals" At least we aren't pandering to bigots
For your information,I have several homosexual friends. Needless to say,they are not as overly sensitive as some on this forum.

By pandering I refer to the multitude of distractions figure skating uses to take attention away from the less-than-stellar skating. Cross-dressing commentators on television,for example. Or the prolific use of pop music and "gay anthems" instead of proper music. Or female skaters stripping to their undergarments for their exhibition programs.

In my book,this panders to young people and homosexuals. You're free to disagree,of course.

I am a homosexual. Thanks for the clarification that choppy gymnastics on ice is my thing.
As always,I'm happy to help.

-BB
 
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all_empty

Well-Known Member
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1,713
I am not entirely sure Lipinski had better skating skills than Med or Zagitova. And let’s not forget Elvis Stojko who jumped his way to three worlds titles.

The ones that are seriously lacking in ss generally didn’t win worlds but they did and do win world medals and euro titles. That was true then and is true now.

World champions don’t always have the best skating skills but usually they are not deficient in them. Usually not always
So um yeah, I'm going to skip over the last few posts.

Elvis (and Surya and Midori, for that matter) competed (and won) in the figures era. Elvis skated at the 1990 Worlds and was 16th in figures.

His jumping content (like Midori's) was above his competitor's, and that's what allowed him to win. In fact, some of the fast footwork and kung-fu moves where he held an edge were ahead of their time. Were they masterpieces of choreography and showcases of skating skills? No. But he certainly wasn't deficient.

Alysa is coming up in a system where the emphasis is on four-rotation jumps. Those are the big point-getters. She's also at the age where her body is changing (which affects strength, balance, etc.). When Michelle Kwan was her age she still needed a lot of crossovers and her extension wasn't the best. These things take time and training.

All I hope is for her to stay healthy. Who knows, in 10 years she may be the greatest artist on ice. We just don't know yet.
 

Japanfan

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21,197
His jumping content (like Midori's) was above his competitor's, and that's what allowed him to win. In fact, some of the fast footwork and kung-fu moves where he held an edge were ahead of their time. Were they masterpieces of choreography and showcases of skating skills? No. But he certainly wasn't deficient.
I think his Bruce Lee program was a masterpiece.
 

aftershocks

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15,043
I certainly hope the United States Figure Skating Association reinstates compulsory figures in competition. It is the clearest path to return figure skating to it's previous glory.

Figure skating used to be art on ice. Now we have choppy gymnastics on ice that panders to millennials and the homosexuals.

I'd prefer to watch 4 hours of precise,glorious compulsory figures over quadruple and triple-triple jumps from pre-pubescent girls anytime. I venture to guess most agree.
Such blasphemy and condescension, barely disguised by ridiculous poking fun. :drama: I know many fans today are so used to 'jumping on ice' as be-all end-all, they don't even realize what blade skills actually are, much less understand what 'figure' in 'figure skating' stands for. :COP: Even those who do understand and who do appreciate the rarity of fine skating skills are rather nonchalant and dismissive toward figures. It's the go-to stance today. Out of sight, out of mind. Maybe that's in part what you are lampooning too.

Of course compulsory figures needed to be dropped from competition for a variety of reasons. But the understanding and practice of figures didn't need to be thrown out like a baby with the bath water and completely forgotten in importance as the basic foundation and historic beginning of the sport.

Anyone who so chooses can continue making fun though. It's tantamount to baseball fans laughing at Babe Ruth, sneering at Mickey Mantle, questioning 'Joe Who?' -- and not knowing that a famous Yankee baseball catcher, nicknamed Yogi, coined the ubiquitous saying: "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings."
 

aftershocks

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15,043
@aftershocks @SkateFanBerlin Well, his skating skills have been good, but there were a heck of a lot of people on this very forum saying he had none and was just doing the good ol skate back and forth and do quads game his first senior season. So I’d say that’s the same: showing no skating skills, winning, and then pulling them out after you start winning on the merit of your jumps.
Nathan does not have poor skating skills, but his skills are not on a par with Patrick Chan's. But these days, whose are?

Those who complain about Nathan lacking artistry and/or lacking skating skills generally refuse to see the forest and the trees, because they aren't partial to Nathan Slaythan becoming a phenomenon and challenging/ beating their faves.
 

Japanfan

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21,197
Nathan does not have poor skating skills, but his skills are not on a par with Patrick Chan's. But these days, whose are?

Those who complain about Nathan lacking artistry and/or lacking skating skills generally refuse to see the forest and the trees, because they aren't partial to Nathan Slaythan becoming a phenomenon and challenging/ beating their faves.
I think Nathan is pretty average in terms of both artistry and skating skills, and his artistry could improve with time. It's his quads that are his strength and put him way at the front of the pack. However, I do not have a favorite male skater right now. It's strange, as I always have had a favorite, ever since starting to watch FS in '94. My last favorite was Machida.
 

aftershocks

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^^ That's fair, except for the first part of your first sentence. Everyone has their particular view/ perception regarding the current World champion. Of course Nathan, like every young athlete can continue to improve in all areas. However, IMO he's above average in skating skills and superior in artistry and musical interpretation. He's so multi-talented, he could have proceeded to place major attention in any direction, but a focus on mastering quad revolutions was the going thing, so that's what he focused on when he made the transition to seniors. Since then, he's paid more attention to balancing those amazing jumps with his unique creativity. However, the money jumps are the sport's great calling card and ticket to top of the podium, and doing them necessarily takes energy and focus, which divides attention away from aesthetic aspects -- that's true for all the quadsters. It's a difficult balancing act to manage and sustain.

If you take a look back at Nathan's 2015 Junior Worlds fp, and you still rate his artistry as 'average,' then it's not even worth engaging with you further about Nathan Chen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTUs71GEPc

... in 10 years she may be the greatest artist on ice.
That's doubtful. But dreaming is allowed... :D

Right now, Alysa shows signs of grace, but she has a way to go toward developing more mature musical understanding and expressiveness. Plus, as we know, rotation skills are more valued and important. At this point, I'm doubtful that 'greatest artist' is in the works, nor even likely a desired goal.

I don't even think today's young skaters know who Janet Lynn is. Thus, they don't have the actual 'greatest' in their memory banks or Youtube download files to measure their development against. Michelle Kwan they probably know, but mainly in terms of her popularity and the competitive records she set. I don't think today's skaters necessarily have good knowledge of MK's actual skating and her most transcendent performances.
 
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Japanfan

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21,197
However, IMO he's above average in skating skills and superior in artistry and musical interpretation.

If you take a look back at Nathan's 2015 Junior Worlds fp, and you still rate his artistry as 'average,' then it's not even worth engaging with you further about Nathan Chen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwTUs71GEPc
That program was just lovely artistically. I just did not feel the same about Nathan's more recent programs. Though my view could change, as has happened with my views of skaters often enough.

Mostly I don't have a whole lot to say about Nathan, and no need for sustained engagement about him. He just doesn't excite me or touch me emotionally - some skaters do, some don't, and how we feel about skaters has an personal element for all of us.

And my view of him is likely influenced by the fact that there isn't anyone who can compete with him, which can make a field boring and predictable.
 

aftershocks

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15,043
That program was just lovely artistically. I just did not feel the same about Nathan's more recent programs. Though my view could change, as has happened with my views of skaters often enough.

Mostly I don't have a whole lot to say about Nathan, and no need for sustained engagement about him. He just doesn't excite me or touch me emotionally - some skaters do, some don't, and how we feel about skaters has an personal element for all of us.

And my view of him is likely influenced by the fact that there isn't anyone who can compete with him, which can make a field boring and predictable.
As I said, Nathan could have proceeded in any direction. But the sport's honchos signaled that 'quads' are everything, and that it's possible to get on the podium straight out of juniors if you master the toughest quad revolutions (e.g., Boyang Jin winning a World bronze in his debut senior season, a rarity). Nathan took note and quads are where he placed his focus in his debut senior season and thereafter. The rest is history.

Certainly there's no need for sustained engagement about Nathan Chen in this thread, nor in any other since you aren't very interested in him because he doesn't excite you. :p At the very least, you acknowledge what's in front of your eyes in Nathan's 2015 junior Worlds performance, accompanied by CBC commentary (Kurt Browning, et al).

Your last sentence is rather grandiose and inaccurate. Nathan, his coaches, his competitors, and the judges would surely demand to differ with you. :lol:
 

Japanfan

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Certainly there's no need for sustained engagement about Nathan Chen in this thread, nor in any other since you aren't very interested in him because he doesn't excite you. :p
Nor touch me. And I should add, nor entertain me. Which doesn't mean I do not appreciate him, or understand all the buzz about him.

Your last sentence is rather grandiose and inaccurate. Nathan, his coaches, his competitors, and the judges would surely demand to differ with you. :lol:
I'm sure they would differ that the field is boring. If you've got a horse in the race and that horse has a strong track record of winning and is likely to continue doing so, it would be an exciting time for the team involved with that horse.

Would they disagree that the field is predictable, with Nathan likely to dominate? I really don't know. It's probably best to be realistic, especially about making predictions about an Olympics that is several years away. But who can compete with a clean Nathan at the moment?
 

gkelly

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Well, it would make more sense to use female examples, especially American ones, in this thread.

What is "average"?

Average for world medal contenders? For top-24/GP-worthy skaters? For international senior competitors who can earn the minimum technical scores for Worlds or for Euros/4Cs/Olympics?

For all senior competitors, or senior+junior? (I.e., all skaters at levels where they're expected to include at least double axels?)

For any of the above, "average" might fall in the middle of a bell curve, but we would need to know where the lower limits are and what the distribution is across the whole population to tell where any given skater who is not best in the world and not worst might fall.

For all skaters at all levels, with 5 being halfway up the development of skills from nothing to best-ever -- not a bell curve, but fewer and fewer individuals reaching each skill level as you move up the scale from 0 to 10?

If we each mean something different by "average" then it's hard to understand each other. And hard to understand the judging if judges mean something else -- and individual judges might have different understandings than each other.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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I think Nathan is pretty average in terms of both artistry and skating skills
Say what????

Thanks to Shae Lynn I think Nathan is the most artistic male skater... even more than Hanyu...and I have no horse in the race.. I am a ladies and pairs uber.

You must be thinking of some other Nathan Chen... because... um come on. :rolleyes:
 

natsulian

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Ting's arms and musicality are a gift to this world.

Please stay healthy and continue to recover steadily. <3
 

AxelAnnie

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Ting's arms and musicality are a gift to this world.

Please stay healthy and continue to recover steadily. <3
She is utterly lovely.
Ting Ciu - JW SP. Her arms are lovely....but her hands are brilliant. They appear boneless. So expressive. I would love her to hold a change of edge spiral. Bet it would be beautiful. I miss those!
 

Tinami Amori

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17,341
Right now, Alysa shows signs of grace, but she has a way to go toward developing more mature musical understanding and expressiveness.
Right now Alysa Liu, if she performs clean and fairly well her planned content, would beat ANY US Lady, junior or senior, including Tennell (and i love her too). She would also make the top 10 in the World, in Sr. and almost a certain medal contender in Jr.

To me, these "abstract discussions" about "maturity, musical understanding, expressiveness, besides being "subjective issues", look like nothing more than an attempt to "cut the head off the tallest poppy" - as in "if someone stands out so much, something must be wrong...... because oh, what about those all other poor little underdogs and less capable".. :D

Alysa Liu deserves nothing more than admiration and support.
 

AxelAnnie

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11,073
Right now Alysa Liu, if she performs clean and fairly well her planned content, would beat ANY US Lady, junior or senior, including Tennell (and i love her too). She would also make the top 10 in the World, in Sr. and almost a certain medal contender in Jr.

To me, these "abstract discussions" about "maturity, musical understanding, expressiveness, besides being "subjective issues", look like nothing more than an attempt to "cut the head off the tallest poppy" - as in "if someone stands out so much, something must be wrong...... because oh, what about those all other poor little underdogs and less capable".. :D

Alysa Liu deserves nothing more than admiration and support.
Interesting POV. Totally agree about Alyssa. Bummer she is not older.

Maturity, musical understanding, etc., are subjective, of course. Musicality is a little easier to recognize....they are either skating to the music, or through the music. And, Alyssa does a lovely job with her musicality.

I don't understand the last part, though. And, ALL skaters have some things they can work on. Alyssa isn't as graceful as she will be in years to come (think Michelle Kwan the jumping bean). I would like to think people can appreciate what there is to appreciate about a given skater, rather than write them off (my favorite is I hate so and so ---really have you met him/her?+) and be nasty about it.

I remember during the Slutskaya / Kwan years, I happened to prefer Irina. I did not think Michelle should be boiled in oil or anything, I just liked Irina more. I was posting on another site........where I no longer post.......and people were calling me out as a Communist! People get crazy about stuff!
 

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