U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[Sylvia]

Alysa Liu's Senior FS jump layout at her club's competition, Skate St Moritz, in early September was:

3A< (fall)
3A<+2T
2A
3Lo
2nd half:
3Lz+3T
3Lz+1Eu+3S
3F(! edge warning)

She scored 120.03 [70.49 TES / 50.54 PCS -1].

 

[layman]

That's spelled Debi Thomas. We don't know timing of the onset or the specific genesis of Debi's mental problems. She was under a tremendous amount of stress in the lead-up to the 1988 Olympics, which could be seen on her face and in her interviews during that time. She had suffered an injury the year before (1987) as I recall, which contributed to her losing her U.S. National title to Jill Trenary and her World title to Katarina Witt. I personally believe Debi was struggling with pressure in the lead-up to the '88 Olympics. IMO, she never actually recovered from what she seemed under the surface to feel was letting herself down, as well as letting down her coach and her country with her uncharacteristic fp performance. Debi's mother's reaction, and her coach's reaction to her not winning/ not performing to her abilities likely also added to her emotional distress.

IMO, Debi tried to put on a brave face at the time and for years afterward in interviews. But to me it was always clear that she was struggling emotionally with her Olympics letdown and the hectic aftermath of touring with SOI and trying to finish medical school. Post-Olympics, she put on a good front via still competing and winning professional competitions, and performing in shows. However, some of her behavior on tour seemed erratic as recalled by a few SOI skaters years later. Debi likely had always been a high-achiever and a perfectionist who had put pressure on herself. Unfortunately, I don't think she ever stopped to seek professional counseling post-Olympics. She kept going, including rushing into getting married to her boyfriend at the time, which ended in divorce. She married an athlete some years later and had a son. She graduated from Stanford and worked as a physician, but she eventually hit a wall and everything fell apart/ came unglued...

Debi Thomas has been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder (formerly known as Manic Depression). She joins a long list of high achievers who struggled with Bipolar Disorder including...Robert Schumann, Composer, Virginia Woolf, Author, Kanye West, Entertainer, Mariah Carey, Entertainer, Winston Churchill, Prime Minister, Marilyn Monroe, Actress, Vivian Leigh, Actress, Jane Pauley, Journalist, Franz Schubert, Composer, Sting, Entertainer, Gustav Mahler, Composer, Frank Sinatra, Entertainer, Carrie Fisher, Actress/Author, Amy Winehouse, Entertainer, Ernest Hemingway, Author, Margaux Hemingway, Actress, Brittney Spears, Entertainer, Nina Simone, Entertainer, Glenn Gould, Pianist, Elizabeth Manley, Figure Skater, Vincent Van Gogh, Painter....it's a long list.

List of (famous) people (including Debi Thomas) with Bipolar Disorder:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_bipolar_disorder

Before making anymore ignorant statements about Bipolar Disorder, you can read more about it here:
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/bipolar-disorder/index.shtml

 

[Sylvia]

Suggested thread in which to discuss Debi Thomas further: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/mental-health-in-ladies-skating.104536/

Karen Chen is no longer listed for GP Helsinki but is still listed for Rostelecom Cup. She was dealing with a foot injury in September and withdrew from U.S. Classic (right foot was pictured in a walking boot on her IG) and so I assume she is not competition ready yet.

ETA: http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=91868&type=media

(10/15/18) – Karen Chen has withdrawn from the Helsinki Grand Prix of Figure Skating, U.S. Figure Skating announced today.
... [she] is still recovering from a foot injury.
She is still scheduled to compete at Rostelecom Cup in Moscow from Nov. 16-18, 2018.

 

[Sylvia]

Ashley Lin is listed on USFS' International Assignments page for her second ISU Challenger Series assignment at Inge Solar Memorial in Innsbruck, Austria, Nov. 13-17, 2018, which should give her a bye through Midwestern Sectionals the same week. (Thanks @Stephanie for the heads up!)

 

[Tinami Amori]

Since she came up on the other thread, is Elise Freezer still skating? I didn't see her on this year's scoretracker.

I followed her progress occasionally on Elise's and mother's IG sites until this Summer. Now both accounts are private. Prior to turning private, her mother posted several messages and fotos about another injury, growth/weight issues, and moving on to other activities (with regrets about not continuing to skate competitively and returning from Canada to Colorado). From what i've seen in IG during this past year, Elise was trying other athletic activities, so all may be well for her in other venues.

 

[Sylvia]

October 10th article on Starr Andrews "as she prepares to make her senior Grand Prix debut at 2018 Skate America in Everett, Washington": https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...ws-from-viral-fame-to-national-contender.aspx

"That's awesome," Andrews said of the opportunity to skate in front of a U.S. crowd. "It's going to feel like nationals again."

But, Andrews insists that she's not feeling any additional pressure.

"For me, thinking about (every competition), it's different, but when you go there, it all feels the same," she said. "So I just tell myself this is just another competition, do what you have to do, and you'll be okay."

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Cross referencing from the Bradie Tennell cheer thread!..

Skate America in Everett could launch another special season

Bradie Tennell started her meteoric rise in figure skating at last year’s Skate America in New York.

https://www.heraldnet.com/sports/skate-america-in-everett-could-launch-another-special-season/

Skate America is where it all began for Bradie Tennell.

For Tennell, the 2017-18 figure skating season was the stuff of childhood fantasies. She entered last fall as a relative unknown, even inside her own country. She departed the winter as a ladies national champion, an Olympic medalist, and one of the biggest names in American skating.

Tennell’s whirlwind 2017-18 was kicked off by a breakthrough performance at Skate America. So it’s no surprise that she’s eagerly anticipating her return to the event.

“Absolute madness,” is how Tennell, a 20-year-old from Carpentersville, Illinois, described her 2017-18 season. “It was amazing, and going out at Skate America and having the skates I did played a big part.”

 

[aftershocks]

October 10th article on Starr Andrews "as she prepares to make her senior Grand Prix debut at 2018 Skate America in Everett, Washington": https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...ws-from-viral-fame-to-national-contender.aspx

Thanks for linking. This is a nice feature on Starr. I love this ending:

"The question remains: would Andrews ever revisit the program that was the source of her first brush with fame?
'I would,' she said, smiling coyly. 'Yes, I would.'"

 

[aftershocks]

Megan Wessenberg had a great sp skate at SA. Her marks were held down IMO. Seemingly a rep-based holding down. She had great speed and a gorgeous layback! Kudos. A couple of minor problems but no major mistakes.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

^^^^ Uggg this is always the year to not hold skaters back... let newbies get deserved marks. This is the time for new faces!!!

 

[Prancer]

Please take competition discussion to the appropriate Kiss and Cry forum.

 

[Marco]

I applaud Bradie for trying so hard. Definitely the top US lady. For me she still lacks the star power though - hope she would work on selling herself.

 

[alj5]

I applaud Bradie for trying so hard. Definitely the top US lady. For me she still lacks the star power though - hope she would work on selling herself.

Agreed. She is a steady skater, but I want her to break free from steady and reliable and have a thing that makes her memorable. Her short program is a good start, but she still looks like she's thinking through the program instead of "being" the program.

She's a bit like Sarah Hughes. A reliable top 5-10 skater, who had the best skates of her life when others faltered. Though instead of being one of 5-6 skaters competing for world/olympic/GP medals, Bradie is one of 10+ skaters competing for medals.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I applaud Bradie for trying so hard. Definitely the top US lady. For me she still lacks the star power though - hope she would work on selling herself.

I think that's the issue, right there. Some skaters have the 'it' factor where everything looks spontaneous. With others, it looks rehearsed and to a point, hard work.

I can only begin to imagine how hard it is to concentrate on getting difficult technical elements right, as well as giving an actual performance.

Being marketed as the number one lady in the United States would be added pressure, too.

But, given that this is only her second season on the senior international championship circuit, Bradie may relax into what she is doing with more events under her belt.

 

[missing]

Agreed. She is a steady skater, but I want her to break free from steady and reliable and have a thing that makes her memorable. Her short program is a good start, but she still looks like she's thinking through the program instead of "being" the program.

She's a bit like Sarah Hughes. A reliable top 5-10 skater, who had the best skates of her life when others faltered. Though instead of being one of 5-6 skaters competing for world/olympic/GP medals, Bradie is one of 10+ skaters competing for medals.

I can understand the comparisons between Bradie and Sarah Hughes, since they are both somewhat gangly skaters. But Sarah was hardly "a reliable top 5-10 skater, who had the best skates of her life when others faltered."

If you check Wikipedia's Sarah Hughes' result chart, you'll find her lowest ranking at Worlds was 7th, when she was 13 years old. After that, she was a consistent medal threat nationally and internationally on the junior and senior levels.

I watched the SA exhibitions and was very impressed with Bradie's exhibition program. It was strong music and she skated it with personality and power. I regretted that she hadn't selected something like that for one of her competitive programs. I think it would show off her particular skill set well.

 

[Jarrett]

I can understand the comparisons between Bradie and Sarah Hughes, since they are both somewhat gangly skaters. But Sarah was hardly "a reliable top 5-10 skater, who had the best skates of her life when others faltered."

If you check Wikipedia's Sarah Hughes' result chart, you'll find her lowest ranking at Worlds was 7th, when she was 13 years old. After that, she was a consistent medal threat nationally and internationally on the junior and senior levels.

I watched the SA exhibitions and was very impressed with Bradie's exhibition program. It was strong music and she skated it with personality and power. I regretted that she hadn't selected something like that for one of her competitive programs. I think it would show off her particular skill set well.

Um.. but she did have the best results of her life when others faltered (SC and the Olympics) and that is what Bradie is going to have to rely on too. Bradie is actually a better technical skater than Sarah but Sarah was much more enjoyable visually even at 13 compared to Bradie in her 20s. Sarah had plenty of great skates but all of those skates would have been have trashed with edges and downgrades under this new judging system.

 

[VGThuy]

Sarah Hughes did succeed when others faltered and by 2002, she just needed Kwan, Slutskaya, and even Cohen to falter (though given their planned content and programs I think a clean Hughes could have beaten a clean Cohen in 2002). Butyrskaya wasn't her normal self that season even though she won Euros that year, and neither was Kwan. Slutskaya had a history of holding back in the biggest comps of the season and was coming off a loss at Euros (though I think she won the LP) and even though she won the GPF, Slute's skate showed some weakness (some argued both Kwan and Hughes outskated her in the LP at the GPF), so the likelihood of Hughes being able to take advantage was higher than what Bradie has to fight through. That said, Hughes did what was needed to be in a position to take advantage. By SLC, Hughes fixed her LP to make it better and attempted a highly ambitious jump layout. She also worked on her skating to make it have real flow and good enough extensions and variations on spin positions. Sure if she had skated under IJS, she would be met with UR calls, but for 2002, she did what she had to do.

 

[missing]

Um.. but she did have the best results of her life when others faltered (SC and the Olympics) and that is what Bradie is going to have to rely on too. Bradie is actually a better technical skater than Sarah but Sarah was much more enjoyable visually even at 13 compared to Bradie in her 20s. Sarah had plenty of great skates but all of those skates would have been have trashed with edges and downgrades under this new judging system.

Sarah Hughes' career suffers as many downgrades at FSU as Vincent Zhou's quads.

She was an intelligent girl from an intelligent family with an intelligent (possibly even shrewd) coaching team, and presumably if she were skating under today's judging system, they would have worked together on her edges and rotations to prevent trashing and downgrades.

To me, the primary difference between Bradie's career and Sarah's career paths is age. In the 1998-2002 Olympic cycle, teen girls came, skated, and (for the most part) retired. While the same may be true for the Russian women, the other women skaters nowadays skate competitively into their 20s. Whether this trend will help or hurt Bradie remains to be seen.

 

[Marco]

Bradie reminds me of Rachel, status wise. Just someone who is solid and reliable when the stars aren't.

 

[aftershocks]

Good luck to Bradie, and to Starr, and to Megan, and to all the U.S. ladies. Keep holding your heads up high and believing in yourselves and in your dreams!

 

[Amantide]

Debi's mother's reaction, and her coach's reaction to her not winning/ not performing to her abilities likely also added to her emotional distress.

How di she react? I remember her performance but nothing else after.
I didn't even had much access to the foreign media at that time either. I usually just watched the competitions on Yugoslav or Italian TV, and that's about it.

 

[aftershocks]

How di she react? I remember her performance but nothing else after.
I didn't even had much access to the foreign media at that time either. I usually just watched the competitions on Yugoslav or Italian TV, and that's about it.

I'm only going by Debi's mother's reported disappointment, and by her reaction caught on the relentless televison cameras that troll for parents of Olympians in the stands. Debi's mother was understandably disappointed and could not hide it, as if she was banking on Debi's success. However, I am not aware of all the details involved, nor do I know the exact nature of Debi's relationship with her mother. From what I've read, it seems that her mother's inability to hide her own disappointment was not beneficial to Debi recovering from what happened. However, her mother may have been supportive to a degree after the event. Her mother had made sacrifices over the years to enable Debi to pursue a career in figure skating.

Plus, Debi's coach's disappointment was also such that he did not provide any source of comfort to Debi in the aftermath of the competition. Debi didn't win gold and that seemed to be the only goal that would have satisfied her and many people around her apparently. In fact, winning the bronze was an accomplishment too. But there was no solace in that lesser victory.

 

[Amantide]

Thank you, @aftershocks
It's really hard in these cases. I always wondered why she chose Carmen, tbh.
I mean it wasn't bad, but I think smth else would've suited her better? Not to mention the whole "Battle of the Carmen" media fuss, I've read about it. I imagine that wouldn't have made things easier either.

 

[aftershocks]

Thank you, @aftershocks
It's really hard in these cases. I always wondered why she chose Carmen, tbh.
I mean it wasn't bad, but I think smth else would've suited her better? Not to mention the whole "Battle of the Carmen" media fuss, I've read about it. I imagine that wouldn't have made things easier either.

I don't think there was anything wrong with Debi's choice of Carmen, particularly at that time. It was a bold choice, and Debi received assistance from a famous ballet dancer in preparing for the program. Of course, today we think of Carmen as a warhorse. But it is music that has served many skaters well over the years.

 

[Amantide]

I don't think there was anything wrong with Debi's choice of Carmen, particularly at that time. It was a bold choice, and Debi received assistance from a famous ballet dancer in preparing for the program. Of course, today we think of Carmen as a warhorse. But it is music that has served many skaters well over the years.

No, I didn't meant Carmen as a choice per se. I mean since Katarina had made the same choice as well. The comparison between skaters is made in the competition per se. So, why add more into it by comparing the same program. I know, it's not the same choreo, but you get my point.

Although, I don't remember how it worked back then. If skaters new beforehand about the choices of other skaters. And if there was enough time to change the programs, even if they wanted to.
I don't remember in early 90s at least, that changing programs was often practiced.

 

[gkelly]

Although, I don't remember how it worked back then. If skaters new beforehand about the choices of other skaters. And if there was enough time to change the programs, even if they wanted to.
I don't remember in early 90s at least, that changing programs was often practiced.

I don't know the specifics about Thomas's and Witt's music choices, and I wasn't paying much attention in the 1980s; I was in the 90s.

But there were fewer summer/fall competitions, fewer outlets for communication between skaters and the public and also between skaters especially one in the West and one in the Eastern bloc during the Cold War; and I think there was more of a sense of keeping music choices and maybe new big tricks secret until a reveal at the skater's first competition of the season.

So it's highly likely that both had put considerable work into their programs and were not in a position to change them by the time they learned the other had chosen music from the same source.

 

[VGThuy]

I can see Debi working hard on the program and when she later found out Katarina also chose Carmen, it was public knowledge since any information from East German would probably be public. If Debi had already made her choice known, then I can see her refusing to back out just because her number 1 competitor chose the music. She probably would have felt like that would be admitting defeat already.

 

[Maximillian]

I can see Debi working hard on the program and when she later found out Katarina also chose Carmen, it was public knowledge since any information from East German would probably be public. If Debi had already made her choice known, then I can see her refusing to back out just because her number 1 competitor chose the music. She probably would have felt like that would be admitting defeat already.

I remember it, this is basically what happened.

 

[Amantide]

She probably would have felt like that would be admitting defeat already.

Yeah, I can understand this. Especially back then.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I read somewhere that Debi wanted to skate to Carmen, because one of her skating idols was Linda Fratianne. Fratianne had skated to Bizet's opera in 1980, and Debi wanted to use the music too in the Olympic year.

That her biggest rival chose the music too, was blind dumb luck. But it made great media reportage.