U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[Bulletsdad]

Maybe USFS set up a JGP in Lake Placid on behalf of ALL of team USA, which is likely to include JGP medalists like Nguyen & Kolesnik, the Greens, Gropman & Somerville, and Andrew Torgashev? (Also, JGP events have been in Australia, Asia, & Canada over the past couple years so it is probably USA's turn to host a non-European event).

I don't think they'll push her at Nationals as she's not old enough to compete as a junior or senior elsewhere. Plus, it's a whole different level of competition. It's not like USFS pushed Nathan right up to the top, now is it? And most of the time athletes need the experience before they do their best at senior nationals.

But she could rotate her jumps. She earned credit for a clean 3A2T at the Asian Open this summer.

She also cleanly landed the 3A/2t at regionals.

 

[Frida80]

Maybe USFS set up a JGP in Lake Placid on behalf of ALL of team USA, which is likely to include JGP medalists like Nguyen & Kolesnik, the Greens, Gropman & Somerville, and Andrew Torgashev? (Also, JGP events have been in Australia, Asia, & Canada over the past couple years so it is probably USA's turn to host a non-European event).

I don't think they'll push her at Nationals as she's not old enough to compete as a junior or senior elsewhere. Plus, it's a whole different level of competition. It's not like USFS pushed Nathan right up to the top, now is it? And most of the time athletes need the experience before they do their best at senior nationals.

But she could rotate her jumps. She earned credit for a clean 3A2T at the Asian Open this summer.

We have had fantastic dance teams even better than the ones from this year. Andrew, Tomoki, and Camden are probably moving up next year. The guys left aren't as good. We finally had a pair make it to a JGP podium, but Sarah will be too old for juniors next year. Alysa and maybe a few other rising juniors may look good next year. But looking at all fields, I'd say Alysa will be the star next year.

 

[kwanatic]

I agree that they won't push Liu this year, since she is not even eligible for Junior Worlds. As such, she will need to overcome about an 18-20 point combined PCS deficit to beat Bradie (34 vs 28 SP and 71 vs 58 LP). However, if Liu lands and rotates her 3A's and 4Lz and/or Bradie falters, all bets are off.

I feel like if she comes out and skates well the judges will place her top 2, or even give her the title depending on how others skate. Going into her first JGP season as a senior national champion would give Alysa a small boost internationally, plus it's not like the older US women will lose out if she wins. She's too young to go to worlds so they're going to have to send two age eligible skaters anyway.

If Alysa comes out with 3As and quads I don't doubt she could make up the PCS gap, especially considering how over-inflated PCS are at nationals anyway. They'd give her a boost in components and allow her TES to do the rest which they'd have no trouble justifying as that's the trend in scoring nowadays anyway. High TES = Automatic High PCS

 

[her grace]

At this point in the season, these are the skaters from the ISP who have been assigned to international competition (listed by highest level of assigned competition) [2018 nationals finish in brackets]

GPs: Andrews [S6], Bell [S5], Chen [S3], Gold [WD], Hicks [S9], Tennell [S1], Wang [S7], Wessenberg [S17]
CS: Glenn [S8], Kalyan [J2], Lin [WD], McBeath [S18], McIsaac [S15], Nakahara [J8]
JGP: Cui [J3], Izzo [J6], Harrell [J4], Shin [J9]
Jr.B: Murdock [J-E5]
none: Bautista [S-M5], Coppess [J10], Huang [J7], Jung [N8], Ma [S16](assigned to CS, but WD), Miller [S13], Nagasu [S2], Nguyen [S14], Shi [J12], Wagner [S4]

Then we have the "developmental" international assignments of non-ISP athletes Budko [Int4], Cha [Int1], Liu [J1], Slavicek [Int-P6], and Wang [Int5]. The criteria for selection for these assignments needs to be revisited. Slavicek was chosen after the Broadmoor Open; she didn't qualify to 2018 nationals, and she didn't win the Broadmoor, and yet, USFS is using resources to send her all the way to Asia? Then she didn't qualify to sectionals this year. If USFS wants to send athletes who didn't make it to nationals to an international, shouldn't they have to win or medal at multiple summer competitions? Because potential alone doesn't get one very far. Or can't they send these skaters to Canada for the North American Series, and only if they do well there, spend the money to send them all the way to Europe or Asia? Why is a skater like Slavicek more deserving of an overseas international than an ISP athlete like Coppess or Shi? Or a non-ISP athlete who did well at nationals and during the summer like Chan [Int2] or Concepcion [Int3]?

Also, at one of the last couple challengers, USFS needs to send Cui out to get her senior minimums.

 

[toddlj]

Alysa Liu experimented with her quad lutz at regionals; hence her relatively low score. Her season high is 198. I expect her to be the favorite for silver at Nationals.

I agree that she will challenge for a medal, but I didn't include club competitions because they can be all over the place in terms of the judging. If you were to include those, yes Alysa has a 198. Also (per Sylvia's list https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/top-ten/) Glenn has a 193 and Cui has a 186, and lots of other higher scores from those on this list.

 

[Sylvia]

@her grace, athletes in USFS' Athlete High Performance Development Pool (AHPDP) are not listed online like the ISP athletes. I heard Ellen Slavicek was injured before Regionals and that's the reason why she WD before the SWP Novice Ladies qualifying group starting orders were published.

Re. 2 ladies currently listed in the ISP:
Kaitlyn Nguyen has been recovering from injury since Nationals and has not competed all season, AFAIK. Like Slavicek, she WD before the SWP Senior Ladies SP starting order was published;
I don't know whether or not Angelina Huang has been dealing with injury this season, but she has not competed much that I know of (the high score I have for her was back in March) and she finished 6th in Junior Ladies at UGL Regionals.

The Philadelphia Summer International comp. is not included on USFS' International Assignments page but it counted as a Senior B. The invited ladies -- McBeath, Nakahara, McIsaac, Bautista and Glenn -- all received ISU WS points and ISU minimum TES scores and I've included the Philly International results in my ladies' international scores list for this season: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-senior-ladies-scores/

Alysa Liu has competed quite consistently since early this summer. I have the following 5 club competition Senior scores listed for her before Regionals:

194.87 (124.00 FS) - CCIA Comp (early June)
198.57 (130.91 FS) - SoCal Interclub (mid-June)
198.25 (127.25 FS) - Broadmoor (late June)
(she may have competed in a club comp. in early July - results are not published online)
193.17 (129.57 FS) - Glacier Falls (late July)
(won Asian Open Trophy Adv. Novice gold in Bangkok in early August)
180.79 (120.03 FS) Skate St Moritz (Sept.)

 

[layman]

I feel like if she comes out and skates well the judges will place her top 2, or even give her the title depending on how others skate. Going into her first JGP season as a senior national champion would give Alysa a small boost internationally, plus it's not like the older US women will lose out if she wins. She's too young to go to worlds so they're going to have to send two age eligible skaters anyway.

If Alysa comes out with 3As and quads I don't doubt she could make up the PCS gap, especially considering how over-inflated PCS are at nationals anyway. They'd give her a boost in components and allow her TES to do the rest which they'd have no trouble justifying as that's the trend in scoring nowadays anyway. High TES = Automatic High PCS

I think this would be a case of putting the cart before the horse (and really a disservice to Alysa).

If the judges artificially boosted Alysa's PCS scores at Nationals just because she has some big jumps, this would give her team the wrong message (that they have nothing to work on). Her skating skills are very weak. She will need better skating skills and more speed as she grows to maintain her jumps. If her skating skills do not improve the situation will mirror the example of Caroline Zhang...a precocious talent who won everything on the junior level, who could not replicate that success on the senior level due to growth and technique issues.

 

[kwanatic]

I think this would be a case of putting the cart before the horse (and really a disservice to Alysa).

If the judges artificially boosted Alysa's PCS scores at Nationals just because she has some big jumps, this would give her team the wrong message (that they have nothing to work on). Her skating skills are very weak. She will need better skating skills and more speed as she grows to maintain her jumps. If her skating skills do not improve the situation will mirror the example of Caroline Zhang...a precocious talent who won everything on the junior level, who could not replicate that success on the senior level due to growth and technique issues.

I completely agree with you. However, USFS is known to throw the cart, all of the cargo and even the damn driver in front of the horse when it comes to the US ladies.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not all that impressed with Alysa. I think she's very gutsy with her technical arsenal and I admire that about her, but her jumps don't look like they are built for the long haul (tiny, muscled and lack power) and her overall skating/presentation needs a lot of work too. However, she's very young and has a lot of growing left to do so that's fine. I don't expect much from 12/13 year olds.

However, given that she's the only skater in the entire US women's field (novice/junior/senior) who is going for triple axels and quads and has had some success with them, plus the fact there are multiple skaters moving to seniors next year who are capable of 3As/quads, I feel like the USFS would boost Alysa's scores to position her well heading into her first JGP season. Almost like pushing her out there to say, "See! We've got 3As and quads too!"

Most of the US women can't complete a combo harder than a 3T-3T...and of the ones who can, even fewer of them can actually land the harder combos cleanly with any kind of consistency.

I'm not being all doom and gloom...it's just the truth. Aside from Bradie (and even she is having UR issues lately), who else executes a clean 3Lz-3T or 3F-3T consistently? I honestly can't think of anyone. The overwhelming majority of the US women are very far below the competitive level of the Russian and Japanese women. I don't doubt the USFS is getting a bit anxious/desperate. For that reason I could totally see them boosting Alysa all the way to gold if only to show the rest of the world that the US does have someone who can compete at that high level.

 

[B.Cooper]

In the current crop of US ladies, aside from Bradie Tennel (who seems to experiencing UR issues this season)....does anyone have consistent 3x3's?

 

[layman]

In the current crop of US ladies, aside from Bradie Tennel (who seems to experiencing UR issues this season)....does anyone have consistent 3x3's?

Starr's 3t/3t in the SP at Skate America was ratified by the caller as clean, as was the 2ax/3t she completed in the FP.

 

[toddlj]

Starr's 3t/3t in the SP at Skate America was ratified by the caller as clean, as was the 2ax/3t she completed in the FP.

Bell and Lin both had 3/3's with +GOE at Nebelhorn.

 

[Sylvia]

@B.Cooper - Consistent triple-triples? Not really. However, by my count (may be incomplete), 11 different U.S. ladies have been credited with landing a clean 3-3 internationally so far this season:

3Lz+3Lo:
Bradie Tennell (CS Autumn Classic SP)

3Lz+3T:
Ting Cui (JGP AUT FS, JGP CZE SP & FS)
Mariah Bell (CS Nebelhorn SP)
Alysa Liu (Asian Open Trophy Adv. Novice FS)

3F+3Lo:
Courtney Hicks (CS US Classic FS)

3F+1Eu+3S:
Cui (JGP AUT FS)
Ashley Lin (CS Nebelhorn FS)

3F+3T:
Starr Andrews (CS Asian Open Trophy SP)
Amber Glenn (CS Lombardia SP & FS)
Angela Wang (CS Finlandia FS)

3T+3T:
Andrews (SkAm SP)
Megan Wessenberg (SkAm SP)
Lin (CS Nebelhorn SP)
Pooja Kalyan (JGP SVK SP)

 

[toddlj]

@B.Cooper - Consistent triple-triples? Not really. However, by my count (may be incomplete), 11 different U.S. ladies have been credited with landing a clean 3-3 internationally so far this season:

3Lz+3Lo:
Bradie Tennell (CS Autumn Classic SP)

3Lz+3T:
Ting Cui (JGP AUT FS, JGP CZE SP & FS)
Mariah Bell (CS Nebelhorn SP)
Alysa Liu (Asian Open Trophy Adv. Novice FS)

3F+3Lo:
Courtney Hicks (CS US Classic FS)

3F+1Eu+3S:
Cui (JGP AUT FS)
Ashley Lin (CS Nebelhorn FS)

3F+3T:
Starr Andrews (CS Asian Open Trophy SP)
Amber Glenn (CS Lombardia SP & FS)
Angela Wang (CS Finlandia FS)

3T+3T:
Andrews (SkAm SP)
Megan Wessenberg (SkAm SP)
Lin (CS Nebelhorn SP)
Pooja Kalyan (JGP SVK SP)

Based on this I think we can at least say Cui is consistent! Multiple 3/3's landed. Yes, she's had other jump issues later in her programs, but lots of 3/3's landed.

 

[layman]

I completely agree with you. However, USFS is known to throw the cart, all of the cargo and even the damn driver in front of the horse when it comes to the US ladies.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not all that impressed with Alysa. I think she's very gutsy with her technical arsenal and I admire that about her, but her jumps don't look like they are built for the long haul (tiny, muscled and lack power) and her overall skating/presentation needs a lot of work too. However, she's very young and has a lot of growing left to do so that's fine. I don't expect much from 12/13 year olds.

However, given that she's the only skater in the entire US women's field (novice/junior/senior) who is going for triple axels and quads and has had some success with them, plus the fact there are multiple skaters moving to seniors next year who are capable of 3As/quads, I feel like the USFS would boost Alysa's scores to position her well heading into her first JGP season. Almost like pushing her out there to say, "See! We've got 3As and quads too!"

Most of the US women can't complete a combo harder than a 3T-3T...and of the ones who can, even fewer of them can actually land the harder combos cleanly with any kind of consistency.

I'm not being all doom and gloom...it's just the truth. Aside from Bradie (and even she is having UR issues lately), who else executes a clean 3Lz-3T or 3F-3T consistently? I honestly can't think of anyone. The overwhelming majority of the US women are very far below the competitive level of the Russian and Japanese women. I don't doubt the USFS is getting a bit anxious/desperate. For that reason I could totally see them boosting Alysa all the way to gold if only to show the rest of the world that the US does have someone who can compete at that high level.

I say judge her fairly. It will be to her benefit in the long run.

 

[kwanatic]

I say judge her fairly. It will be to her benefit in the long run.

Again, I completely agree. But figure skating is quite far removed from being a "fair" sport a lot of the time. I'd prefer to see her judged fairly as well but, as I mentioned above, the US is desperate for a skater they can throw at the Russians. I wouldn't be shocked to see a technically ambitious Alysa held up over a more well rounded skater.

It definitely wouldn't be the first time, that's for sure...

 

[Dobre]

Alysa is no more a "technical" skater than Nathan or McNamara & Carpenter. Just because you can defeat more athletes on the technical side of the scale first does not mean you are not well-rounded. Compared to her peers she is ahead of the game on the second mark. She simply is young relative to the senior field and for sure still developing in all aspects of her skating.

 

[wickedwitch]

Alysa is no more a "technical" skater than Nathan or McNamara & Carpenter. Just because you can defeat more athletes on the technical side of the scale first does not mean you are not well-rounded. Compared to her peers she is ahead of the game on the second mark. She simply is young relative to the senior field and for sure still developing in all aspects of her skating.

If by peers you mean compared to other 12 year olds, I agree. If you mean compared to other senior skaters, then I strongly disagree.

 

[Tinami Amori]

If by peers you mean compared to other 12 year olds, I agree. If you mean compared to other senior skaters, then I strongly disagree.

Here is her skate from last week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlepW0V4x6g
Few jumps did not go well. But can you pls tell me what is "immature" about her moves and gestures? She is skating to a more classical balletic piece, and her movements are just as good as any skater who is good at ballet.. Dance is abstract on some level... It does not require the understanding of a "mature female" who's been abandoned by a husband, left with 3 babies, and the mother died and dog ran away..

I love Kostner, skater and person, but the fact that she is close to 30 and is skating "emotionally" to some love sob story showing "suffering of the heart" is NOT an attractive part, but rather unattractive.. It's great to be dramatic and in character, but as a dancer... One does not have to "have the experience"... (plus, those with heart break experiences, usually end up not skating for a while and sulking instead).

Alysa's skating and presentation is just lovely (imo)..

 

[Bulletsdad]

Alysa is no more a "technical" skater than Nathan or McNamara & Carpenter. Just because you can defeat more athletes on the technical side of the scale first does not mean you are not well-rounded. Compared to her peers she is ahead of the game on the second mark. She simply is young relative to the senior field and for sure still developing in all aspects of her skating.

This. Look at Michelle Kwan at age 13 vs age 15. Alysa is artistically on a great trajectory. Technically, she's already a phenom.

 

[layman]

If only Alyssa had Kostner's knee bend, depth of edge, flow and speed...everything happening between the jumps...it's those things that Alyssa really needs to work on so that she can continue skating into her 30's too (if she so desires). Mastering another quad is putting the cart before the horse.
Kostner 2002 Junior World LP:
https://youtu.be/PT7LH6WYdQw

 

[Tinami Amori]

If only Alyssa had Kostner's knee bend, depth of edge, flow and speed...everything happening between the jumps...it's those things that Alyssa really needs to work on so that she can continue skating into her 30's too (if she so desires). Mastering another quad is putting the cart before the horse.
Kostner 2002 Junior World LP:
https://youtu.be/PT7LH6WYdQw

Thanks for finding 2002 vid for Kostner, that was fun.. But regarding the issue at hand, it is clear to me that Alyssa is far more graceful, smooth and elegant at 12/novice than was Kostner at 14 when junior..

 

[VGThuy]

Tinami, I'm loving that you're rooting for an American ladies skater right now.

 

[Dobre]

If by peers you mean compared to other 12 year olds, I agree. If you mean compared to other senior skaters, then I strongly disagree.

I mean, yes, compared to other novices. And her performance quality is on the upper rung compared to the athletes she has been competing with over the past two seasons--who are generally a bit older than her and were in juniors last year--a couple of whom are moving up along with her for their first senior season. She is right there with Ting, Pooja, Huang, Izzo, etc. Outscored all of them on the second mark last season. She is a well-rounded athlete for her age.

 

[layman]

Thanks for finding 2002 vid for Kostner, that was fun.. But regarding the issue at hand, it is clear to me that Alyssa is far more graceful, smooth and elegant at 12/novice than was Kostner at 14 when junior..

Actually this is not a comparison of gracefulness or elegance but of basic skating skills. Kostner's skating skills were strong at 14. She became an Olympic Medalist 12 years later by building on that strong foundation. Alysa does not have that foundation right now. She needs to work on it.

 

[Frida80]

Alysa is currently working with Satoko's choreographer to improve her skating skills. In her regional program you can already see some improvement.

Can we please give this 13 year old girl time to progress before we start fretting about skating skills?

 

[Mayra]

Is it any wonder American ladies are getting nowhere beyond the middle of the pack with a federation that doesn't know how to support it's athletes, and fans that do their best to tear down and/or pick apart talented 12 year olds putting in ridiculously hard work?

Credit where credit is due, Alysa Liu is a talented skater who is putting in work to be competitive with the rest of the world. It may or may not come to fruition, but I for one am going to enjoy watching her develop. Here's hoping it encourages other American skaters to do the same ala the Russian and Japanese programs.

 

[layman]

Alysa is currently working with Satoko's choreographer to improve her skating skills. In her regional program you can already see some improvement.

Can we please give this 13 year old girl time to progress before we start fretting about skating skills?

If constructive criticism is fretting or nitpicking then I am going to continue doing it. That's what a good coach would do.

Just cheering Alysa on and pretending that she is perfect is not going to work. It did not work for Caroline Zhang. She was hyped to the heavens as the next big thing. The USFSA got behind her in a big way. She was the 2007 Junior World Champion who was poised to take over the mantle of Kwan and Cohen. Television commentators either did not dare criticize her or if they did mention her strange jump technique or lack of skating skills, they said that she was so young that she had plenty of time to correct the problems. The trouble is...she never did. Then, when her senior career failed to take off, those same commentators acted like they were mystified or even implied biased judging.

Zhang 2007 Junior World LP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSr9lNt7K8M
(She has all the gracefulness and elegance one could ever desire. The positions she hits are exquisite. She can get up into the jumps from a standstill. Yet she gains no speed or power from her stroking. This kind of technique can only take an athlete so far).

I always wonder why her technique problems were not addressed much earlier. Her team could have suggested changes when she was a novice. When Caroline herself finally decided to address her technical problems (when she did not make the 2010 Olympic team), it was too late.

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ I don't see anyone pretending Alysa is perfect here in this thread. I'm pretty sure she and her coach know what areas she needs to work on.

Alysa is currently working with Satoko's choreographer to improve her skating skills. In her regional program you can already see some improvement.

Which choreographer?

 

[Sylvia]

Kate Wang is competing in her first international at Golden Bear in Zagreb, along with Alena Budko (will post their Adv. Novice SP results when they are published online later today).

From a late December 2017 San Jose Mercury News article by Elliott Almond about the young Bay area skaters at 2018 Nationals:

Wang, 12, plans to push the limit by mastering triple-triple combinations. She has been skating since age 3, starting at the now-closed Belmont ice rink. Wang currently trains at Yerba Buena Ice and Bowling Center in downtown San Francisco.
Her coach Jeff Crandell was ecstatic how Wang recovered from a disappointing short program when she struggled with some jumps to open in seventh place. Wang scored 82.98 points Saturday for the second-highest mark in the free skate. She finished [5th in Intermediate] with a total of 123.15 points.
Wang said the performance will motivate her for next season. But she’s already dedicated to skating, having quit ballet and swimming to focus on the sport.

She has been credited with landing clean 3Lz+3T and 3S-euler-3S combos in domestic competitions so far this season.

ETA unofficial scores - current top 2 are Alena Budko 41.27 (TSwift's "Look at what you made me do") and Kate Wang 37.76.

 

[soogar]

^^^ I don't see anyone pretending Alysa is perfect here in this thread. I'm pretty sure she and her coach know what areas she needs to work on.


Which choreographer?

I'm assuming Tom Dickson.