U.S. Ladies [#23]: Triple Axels? What a Novice Idea!

[Yazmeen]

IIRC, Debi was asked prior to the games about the difference between her Carmen and Kat's, and she answered, "Mine doesn't die..."

 

[vesperholly]

I read somewhere that Debi wanted to skate to Carmen, because one of her skating idols was Linda Fratianne. Fratianne had skated to Bizet's opera in 1980, and Debi wanted to use the music too in the Olympic year.

That her biggest rival chose the music too, was blind dumb luck. But it made great media reportage.

Was dumb luck though? Witt was a ballsy competitor. She used to come out and watch the other ladies programs. I wouldn't put it past her to hear that Debi picked Carmen and then Kat picked it too, to unnerve Debi.

 

[VGThuy]

Was dumb luck though? Witt was a ballsy competitor. She used to come out and watch the other ladies programs. I wouldn't put it past her to hear that Debi picked Carmen and then Kat picked it too, to unnerve Debi.

Maybe Debi gave Kat the idea to skate to Carmen. Going through possibilities, I can see Kat hearing about Debi doing Carmen and thinking that'd be perfect for her as well, and she knew she could do it better.

 

[Tinami Amori]

IIRC, Debi was asked prior to the games about the difference between her Carmen and Kat's, and she answered, "Mine doesn't die..."

I remember.. and thought to myself "yeah.. the Disney Carmen, like the Little Mermaid who marries the Prince, when in the real story she dies". Well the real Carmen won..

 

[Coco]

I loved Debi's Carmen at 1988 US Nationals.

 

[Yazmeen]

I remember.. and thought to myself "yeah.. the Disney Carmen, like the Little Mermaid who marries the Prince, when in the real story she dies". Well the real Carmen won..

The “real” Carmen was an exercise in too much makeup and ridiculous dramatics in lieu of skating. She was damned lucky Debi went headcase that night. The only performances that exceeded Katarina’s “death scene” were the plethora of tiresome stomach-clutching endings that defined Oksana Baiul’s pro career. Katarina was an excellent skater but she too often relied on her sex appeal instead of technique. Greatest skater even at the time? No. But greatest competitor? Hell, yes, knowing how to psyche out her opponents and only do exactly what she needed to do to win, especially if she skated after them.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I read somewhere that if the Canadian judge had ranked Elizabeth Manley one place higher in the short, that Manley would have won the gold medal. Ouch.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Was dumb luck though? Witt was a ballsy competitor. She used to come out and watch the other ladies programs. I wouldn't put it past her to hear that Debi picked Carmen and then Kat picked it too, to unnerve Debi.

They both struck me as pretty headstrong, but when it was skated clean, I preferred Thomas' Carmen over Witt's. Oh well.

 

[Tinami Amori]

The “real” Carmen was an exercise in too much makeup and ridiculous dramatics in lieu of skating. She was damned lucky Debi went headcase that night. The only performances that exceeded Katarina’s “death scene” were the plethora of tiresome stomach-clutching endings that defined Oksana Baiul’s pro career. Katarina was an excellent skater but she too often relied on her sex appeal instead of technique. Greatest skater even at the time? No. But greatest competitor? Hell, yes, knowing how to psyche out her opponents and only do exactly what she needed to do to win, especially if she skated after them.

They both struck me as pretty headstrong, but when it was skated clean, I preferred Thomas' Carmen over Witt's. Oh well.

Whatever it was, our East Block beat and is beating your West Block...

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Ok I have made it to breakfast in my hotel at Berlin where I can start reading posts from the past 2 days.

I prefer Bradies costumes from Autumn Classic over these 2 tweaks she did.

The Sarah comparison. Is interesting. I think Sarah medlalled in everyhting she did. Or that's al least how I think of her... I also she think Sarah at times was underscored... her elements were amazeballs. Her layback was to die for. Y'all know ANL LOVEShis layback. She only had that bent knee in her spiral... which I think was just her natural body line.

We have no USA lady that has Bradies arsenal of jumps so I can forgive her 3 lutz/3 loop ATM. She did get credit for it in the sp at Classic.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

delete

Forgive my typos and reposts. ANL has big fingers and isn't used to using iPad. Lol

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

delete

Forgive my typos and reposts. ANL has big fingers and isn't used to using iPad. Lol

I tease my mom about her man hands all the time.

 

[vesperholly]

The Sarah comparison. Is interesting. I think Sarah medlalled in everyhting she did. Or that's al least how I think of her... I also she think Sarah at times was underscored... her elements were amazeballs. Her layback was to die for. Y'all know ANL LOVES his layback. She only had that bent knee in her spiral... which I think was just her natural body line.

We had such a wealth of ladies skaters at the time - Kwan, Cohen, Nikodinov - that Hughes definitely got overlooked a little. She did medal in almost everything, with one SA 4th and a few Worlds appearances without hardware. The underscoring was probably for the UR.

 

[aftershocks]

No, I didn't meant Carmen as a choice per se. I mean since Katarina had made the same choice as well. The comparison between skaters is made in the competition per se. So, why add more into it by comparing the same program. I know, it's not the same choreo, but you get my point.

Although, I don't remember how it worked back then. If skaters new beforehand about the choices of other skaters. And if there was enough time to change the programs, even if they wanted to.
I don't remember in early 90s at least, that changing programs was often practiced.

Debi chose Carmen first. Kat Witt then decided to create her own 'sexy' version. That's the facts, despite however the story is related. Even back then it was characterized that they both coincidentally picked the same program. Not true. Debi arrived at the choice first, and Kat followed, which played right into the media's hands with the whole 'Battle of the Carmens' hype to go along with the 'Battle of the Brians.' Those famous tags have subsequently gone down in history.

 

[skatesindreams]

Here is an article - published in the NYT in 1987 - about the development of Debi Thomas' program to Carmen:
https://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/30/sports/capturing-the-fire-of-carmen-on-ice.html

 

[BittyBug]

Would you peeps mind taking the discussion about something that happened 30+ years ago to the Trash Can so that this thread can focus on news about current U.S. ladies? Thanks.

 

[skatesindreams]

I shouldn't have posted...I suppose.

 

[BittyBug]

Classic FSU thread drift but just trying to circle back to current ladies.

 

[toddlj]

I think it's pretty exciting that the US Ladies field is wide open heading into nationals. I think there's an extreme likelihood of surprises and upsets. The results have been a bit disappointing, score-wise, so far. So there's really a chance for someone very young and/or unexpected to medal.

Top 10 ISU scores for US senior ladies so far this season:
Tennell (206.41 Autumn Classic)
Bell (188.97 Nebelhorn)
Lin (181.21 Nebelhorn)
Cui (172.74 JPG Czech Skate)
Wessenberg (170.33 Skate America)
Glenn (166.25 Lombardia)
Hicks (164.58 USIC)
Wang (160.99 Finlandia)
Kalyan (160.60 JPG Bratislava)
<Izzo (159.86 JPG Canada) staying junior>
Andrews (159.76 Asian Open)

Tennell, Bell, Hicks, Wang, Andrews will be seen again on the GP, and Lin has a Challenger assignment in November.
Still to skate before nationals: Chen (will she skate at RC?), Gold (is she ready?) and anyone who is assigned in December to Tallinn Trophy or Golden Spin.

Also, there are a couple of scores worth mentioning from Regionals:
Alysa Liu (186.08 CP1)
Elizaveta Kulik (164.04 SWP1)

 

[aftershocks]

I remember.. and thought to myself "yeah.. the Disney Carmen, like the Little Mermaid who marries the Prince, when in the real story she dies". Well the real Carmen won..

Well, Kat Witt's Carmen was rather sexy, but NOT definitive either. Kat did an awful lot of sexy come-on posing to the cameras, and over-acting her death scene.

Actually, Kat was intent on having her very own rebirth in the West (which did happen and ultimately was further topped off with the Emmy-winning television production of Carmen on Ice -- Brian B's brainchild). As Kat has admitted, she was desperate to get out of East Germany. In 1988, she was competing for what having two Olympic gold medals could mean for freedom to make her own life decisions, over and beyond simply stepping on top of the podium and gaining lucrative endorsement opportunities and ice show contracts.

Okay oops, this isn't the appropriate thread for this conversation. Sorry.

 

[Dobre]

Witt is my favorite ladies skater of all time. She did so much more than compete. Her Carmen, her Schindler's List, her Where Have All the Flowers Gone, her I Am Who I Am . . .

Her guts.

Her Carmen was absolutely definitive.

My first ever favorite skating program.


On the one hand, my apologies for being completely off topic. On the other hand, I kind of loved hearing the bit from Debi about how her Carmen didn't die. Sounds like her.

 

[wickedwitch]

Let's talk about my new favorite subject: how awesome Megan Wessenberg was at Skate America, proving everyone who didn't believe she deserved that spot wrong.

I'm not a huge fan of her LP, but her SP is an absolute favorite of mine. She never skated it well last season, so I'm glad she's doing better with it so far this season.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMta-CAUFBE

 

[BittyBug]

I love Wessenberg's speed.

 

[sjs5572]

I think it's pretty exciting that the US Ladies field is wide open heading into nationals. I think there's an extreme likelihood of surprises and upsets. The results have been a bit disappointing, score-wise, so far. So there's really a chance for someone very young and/or unexpected to medal.

Top 10 ISU scores for US senior ladies so far this season:
Tennell (206.41 Autumn Classic)
Bell (188.97 Nebelhorn)
Lin (181.21 Nebelhorn)
Cui (172.74 JPG Czech Skate)
Wessenberg (170.33 Skate America)
Glenn (166.25 Lombardia)
Hicks (164.58 USIC)
Wang (160.99 Finlandia)
Kalyan (160.60 JPG Bratislava)
<Izzo (159.86 JPG Canada) staying junior>
Andrews (159.76 Asian Open)

Tennell, Bell, Hicks, Wang, Andrews will be seen again on the GP, and Lin has a Challenger assignment in November.
Still to skate before nationals: Chen (will she skate at RC?), Gold (is she ready?) and anyone who is assigned in December to Tallinn Trophy or Golden Spin.

Also, there are a couple of scores worth mentioning from Regionals:
Alysa Liu (186.08 CP1)
Elizaveta Kulik (164.04 SWP1)

Alysa Liu experimented with her quad lutz at regionals; hence her relatively low score. Her season high is 198. I expect her to be the favorite for silver at Nationals.

 

[Marco]

Alysa Liu experimented with her quad lutz at regionals; hence her relatively low score. Her season high is 198. I expect her to be the favorite for silver at Nationals.

Depends on whether the caller is as strict as the ones at Skate America.

 

[Cleo1782]

Depends on whether the caller is as strict as the ones at Skate America.

Callers at US nationals rarely are unless Scott Davis get assigned to this event. The push for Liu is going to be big.

 

[DimaToe]

I could honestly see Liu winning nationals. But based on the history of the USFS, fans,parents, the landscaper, etc. expecting all of the medals once as U.S. woman shows any sight of brilliance I think it would be best for Liu to not be too high up there so that her own goals>outside pressure and so that she can clean up the big elements she is going for.

 

[Frida80]

Alysa has a bright future. Next year is being set up just for her. USFS got a JGP in Lake Placid and she's clearly going to be hyped there. Thankfully we won't have the crowds that Canada had when Stephan choked.

But it's really scary to see the hype-mobile running on a cylinders already. I just she doesn't crumble under the pressure.

 

[Dobre]

Maybe USFS set up a JGP in Lake Placid on behalf of ALL of team USA, which is likely to include JGP medalists like Nguyen & Kolesnik, the Greens, Gropman & Somerville, and Andrew Torgashev? (Also, JGP events have been in Australia, Asia, & Canada over the past couple years so it is probably USA's turn to host a non-European event).

I don't think they'll push her at Nationals as she's not old enough to compete as a junior or senior elsewhere. Plus, it's a whole different level of competition. It's not like USFS pushed Nathan right up to the top, now is it? And most of the time athletes need the experience before they do their best at senior nationals.

But she could rotate her jumps. She earned credit for a clean 3A2T at the Asian Open this summer.

 

[sjs5572]

Maybe USFS set up a JGP in Lake Placid on behalf of ALL of team USA, which is likely to include JGP medalists like Nguyen & Kolesnik, the Greens, Gropman & Somerville, and Andrew Torgashev?

I don't think they'll push her at Nationals as she's not old enough to compete elsewhere. Plus, it's a whole different level of competition. It's not like USFS pushed Nathan right up to the top, now is it? And most of the time athletes need the experience before they do their best at senior nationals.

But she could rotate her jumps. She earned credit for a clean 3A2T at the Asian Open this summer.

I agree that they won't push Liu this year, since she is not even eligible for Junior Worlds. As such, she will need to overcome about an 18-20 point combined PCS deficit to beat Bradie (34 vs 28 SP and 71 vs 58 LP). However, if Liu lands and rotates her 3A's and 4Lz and/or Bradie falters, all bets are off.