U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

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The US Figure Skating community needs to figure out what they need to become golden again for Ladies especially at the Olympics
 
this is officially the lowest USA ladies have ever finished in the entire history of the olys. Even after the plane crash they managed 6, 7, and 8th. Glass half full optimists can quibble all they want over the word "bombed" but when 6 programs are all delivered with errors and the end result is the lowest ranking in a 90 year history, what word does one use
 
I think this was five glaring issues:

1. Ashley wasn't there. As I was saying beforehand, you don't add her to the team to medal - realistically none of the US ladies had a chance - you add her because she's not going to be a splatfest. All the papers can talk about is how messy the US Ladies were. Which, look - I get sending Bradie (consistency) and Mirai (hitting the 3A = high risk but very high reward) - but Ashley's also consistent. The papers probably wouldn't be calling her out, they'd be talking about her in the same way as Adam: not a contender, but very clean, entertaining, and memorable.

2. USFS instituted the bonus for 3-3s later than Russia/Japan, causing us to be behind the curve.

3. Funding: Few families can get into skating in this country, and those that can get very little support. There's also no payoff at the end. I was just reading an article today about how other countries offer things like subsidized housing, college tuition, or job training for their retiring athletes and provide more funding. USOC athletes don't get much support.

4. Culture: We have the crazy skating parents that don't let the coaches do their job and get in the way of success. I think all of TSL's guests for the Olympics, Rafael, and a couple skating journalists have all mentioned how much the crazy parents in the US do to sabotage their kids. Of course they don't think they're sabotaging their kids, but they refuse to understand what will help. Some of the most consistent skaters recently are the ones that have/had consistent coaching and training (Jason Brown, Bradie Tennell, Rachel Flatt, etc.).

5. USFSA rules for lower levels. While they have incentivized doing triples at lower levels and that will help, they're also not doing much to improve problems the US ladies famously have. They're not harsh on UR calls. Edge calls are incredibly rare. They reduced the deduction for falls. Yes, I get some of that requires replay to double check, but maybe their new rule should be that there is no benefit of the doubt - if you suspect it, call it. Then the skaters may fix the problem.
 
I thought both Bradie and Mirai did fine--they didn't let a few errors derail their entire program like Daleman did.

I was also pleased to see Bradie finish ahead of the other two Americans. Given her lack of international experience, I think she acquitted herself well and that placement will likely give her a boost going forward.

As for Karen, I wonder if she's got a mind/body problem going on with her foot. Very strange.

Regarding none of the US women being in contention for a medal, why should they be? Russia has a strong program (factory) in place to search for and then develop the most naturally talented girls. And the popularity of skating in Japan gives them a large pool of talent they can draw from. The US has neither of those things.
 
berthesghost said:
this is officially the lowest USA ladies have ever finished in the entire history of the olys. Even after the plane crash they managed 6, 7, and 8th. Glass half full optimists can quibble all they want over the word "bombed" but when 6 programs are all delivered with errors and the end result is the lowest ranking in a 90 year history, what word does one use
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It hardly seems fair to state this fact without the context of Mirai's historic, medal-saving 3A, 8 clean triple FS two weeks earlier.
 
It would be rather nice if everyone would cool it with the Ashley vs. Mirai vs. other US woman debates, and I mean that on all sides. It's foolish to still to this day claim that Mirai should have gone four years ago, and it's foolish to speculate that Ashley would have done better in 2018 when we have no idea what would have happened. What's done is done. Let's move on.
 
I think Bradie having to skate the SP, first, in the first group, just shows how wrong the USFSA does things. Always clinging to the old and tried guard as long as possible, wringing them until their desert dry, while the younger generation suffers from lack of attention and nurturing until they become nothing. Younger girls need more encouragement and pushing. Sending Star Andrews to 4CC was a move in the right direction.
 
Once again, why obsess over what happened five minutes ago in figure skating? :duh: Even had the U.S. ladies all skated to their potential, it might have brought Mirai to 4th, 5th or 6th, depending upon what other ladies did had she put more pressure on some of the skaters in the last group. Mirai's main chance to even battle for the podium would have been skating clean and placing much higher in the sp. Again, none of the U.S. ladies had any margin for error to even get closer to the podium. Certainly, they are all better than Dabin Choi who clearly benefited from skating in her home country. Her skating is not memorable even though she seems fairly consistent. She appeared to have more URs than were called, and she was skating rather tentatively while the music was just playing in the background. Her PCS scores were overly high. If Bradie gets back on track and delivers consistent jumps, she'll get higher scores. And surely she will be receiving some kind of nurturing to improve her PCS scores.

It seems like a lot of people in skating (including Kristi) are taking up for Karen. I think Charlie White is accurate in saying that Karen really needs to correct some technical miscues. She jumps high, but she doesn't rotate fast enough to control her landings. And she often seems unable to control her nerves. Conversely that's what makes the Russian ladies champions: they can rotate fast with control and consistency (even despite Med's pre-rotations and slight URs that are rarely called), and both Med and Zag are fierce competitors who want to win at all costs, which forces everyone to sit up and pay attention. The judges fall all over themselves to reward their jumping consistency, while over-rewarding them on PCS.

What I'm looking forward to is seeing what decisions some skaters will be making regarding possible retirement; who is not going to Worlds; who will be looking to make a coaching change, etc. And maybe we can stop with the sport of tearing down U.S. ladies! :drama: They could have skated better and placed slightly higher, or just skated lights out and gotten close to the podium perhaps. At the least, it was possible for them to put more pressure on other competitors, but that didn't happen. The judges were never planning to do them any favors, and they had no margin for error.
 
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NAOTMAA said:
I think Bradie having to skate the SP, first, in the first group, just shows how wrong the USFSA does things. Always clinging to the old and tried guard as long as possible, wringing them until their desert dry, while the younger generation suffers from lack of attention and nurturing until they become nothing. Younger girls need more encouragement and pushing. Sending Star Andrews to 4CC was a move in the right direction.
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How was the USFS responsible for Bradie's start order? In fairness, they jumped on her as soon as she got good results internationally last fall, sent her to SA, and then promoted her going into Nationals. What more could they have done? She was injured before.
 
I gotta be honest. I’m super pissed at the U.S. ladies for flouncing and bouncing all over the singles event at the Olympics.

I can kind of forgive Bradie a little bit because this is really her first major senior international...a big stage. She still managed to place ahead of veterans Nagasu and Chen. But Bradie has got to get good programs and choreography to move up (and get her consistency back on track).

Mirai was a huge disappointment. What happened to her after the team event? Did she lose shape during the wait for the singles competition? This was her second Olympics and I had hoped the team free was an indication she knew what to do and could handle the pressure having been to the Olympics before. She seemed to be kind of laughing her poor performance off which didn’t look good either.

Karen I really want to strangle. Always an excuse. This time it’s the boots again. Frankly she has not looked in good shape this year and even her spins, which were exceptional last year, didn’t look as good this season. Karen wasted so much precious training time choreographing and changing her programs all for what? A mediocre Olympic result? At Nationals I thought Ashley should have had the bronze on the strength of the second mark and she should have been in Pyeongchang instead of Karen. Ashley would likely have mesmerized with her La La Land like Adam did with his mature skating, even though she was an unlikely medalist.

And don’t get me going on USFS who greatly contributed to the state of our ladies by being an old institution asleep at the wheel as US ladies competitiveness and depth of the field continued to decline.

US is going to be back to only two US ladies if two of these ladies don’t dramatically improve their positions at Worlds next month.

O.k. rant over :angryfire
 
Well I agree with some of the points you are making @mtnskater, but I disagree with getting too caught up in being 'pissed' at the athletes! Why be upset with them? I mean gain some perspective. It was definitely not a good showing for any of the U.S. ladies. It's the Olympics, and there shouldn't be any excuses, but certainly there are a lot of factors involved. I agree with you that the long wait between team and individual events did not appear to be helpful for Bradie and Mirai. Karen was flying under the radar and she just should have been prepared and fired up to do battle. Unlike Bradie and Mirai, Karen did not perform in the team event and so she doesn't take home a medal. So just do battle at the Olympics in your individual event and let the chips fall. With skating how she could, it was certainly possible for Karen to put pressure on other competitors and force the judges to take notice. Karen, Mirai and Bradie could have and should have been at least in front of Dabin Choi and Sotskova. It would have been harder for them to get past Kostner, Sakamoto, and Miyahara without those more favored ladies making egregious mistakes.

None of the U.S. ladies actually had a realistic opportunity for the podium in terms of politics and rep. Therefore, with nothing to lose, go out there and perform. It was maybe possible for 7, 8, and 9 placements for U.S. ladies. Or with putting more pressure on the top ladies, possibly higher, especially for Mirai had she landed her 3-axel in both programs. What is this about wanting to be at the Olympics and then becoming overwhelmed when your moment arrives and the spotlight is on you? Mirai could only hold up for the team event, so I would imagine she takes solace in that. But it's bittersweet and anticlimactic. They certainly do not take any momentum for Worlds out of these games, because judges tend to stay close to the Olympic standings if everyone skates to form.

If nothing else, by skating your best you can feel satisfied no matter what the judges decide to do. So that's the bottom line. However, none of these ladies need emotional fans piling on them, capiche!
 
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With the post-2002 judging system, American ladies can't get away with bad technique anymore. Other than Gracie, who has had her share of other struggles, who was the last American lady with truly great technique anyway? Also, cruel as it sounds, it's not a coincidence that women's figure skating is currently dominated by countries where failure is not accepted.
 
ssminnow said:
... it's not a coincidence that women's figure skating is currently dominated by countries where failure is not accepted.
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What? :huh: :p That's a very simplistic and fairly meaningless declaration. :drama: I'm more upset for the U.S. ladies that they weren't able to simply throw off the nerves and skate to their ability in order to make it harder for the judges. But we pretty much knew going in that with the depth of talent and politics factored in, it would be hard for U.S. ladies to make the podium, or even place just off.

Ashley Wagner has definitely had issues and her stock has been falling with international judges, so there's no guarantee how she would have fared. In Ashley's favor though is her veteran experience under pressure. I would actually have enjoyed seeing Ashley perform to La La Land over Karen begging for sympathy re more boot issues. I frankly think it hurt Ashley when U.S. judges did not give her the points to win Nationals in 2017 after it was very close between her and Karen. It could have gone either way. Going into 2017 Worlds as U.S. champion might have made a difference for Ashley performing better and placing higher. Karen was a wipeout at 2017 4CCs, then she gained support from former skaters, including Kristi Yamaguchi, which seemed to help Karen at 2017 Worlds (and totally made a difference for the U.S. having a third spot this year for Worlds and Olympics). Therefore, that's likely a big reason why USFS wished to reward Karen with the third spot after a less than stellar showing at U.S. Nationals. Bradie showed up at Skate America and at U.S. Nats, so her stellar results were a bigger reason why Ashley was unceremoniously dumped.

I do agree that it takes strong determination and fierceness under pressure to prevail in figure skating. But I doubt USFS is going to build a factory assembly line. They need to concentrate more on funding, good coaching and better overall decisionmaking. FWIW, Russia and Japan are still behind the U.S. ladies' overall statistical medal haul at Worlds and Olympics, but both those countries can continue to make inroads. It would still take a couple more decades though for those countries to catch up, during which time surely some talented U.S. ladies with self-belief, drive, grit and luck might come along to pad U.S. ladies' record medal count.

Even though it's diappointing for Bradie, Mirai, and Karen not to have acquitted themselves better with the eyes of the world on them, we should maintain some perspective. Talented ladies are going to continue to flow from both Japan and Russia, so let's hope for some exciting rivalries at the least. Medvedeva was fortunate when Gracie faltered in Boston, because that World championships was Gracie's to lose. That was the rivalry that never was. However, it's better to have your health, sanity and happiness vs figure skating glory.
 
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AngieNikodinovLove said:
Oh and did Johnny just say worst showing for American ladies ever?
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i didn't hear him but he's right:
36 Maribel was 5th, 48 Yvonne was 6th, 64 Peggy was 6th, 10 Mirai was 4th, 14 Gracie was 4th.
Spun Silver said:
It hardly seems fair to state this fact without the context of Mirai's historic, medal-saving 3A, 8 clean triple FS two weeks earlier.
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Because it's a completely separate event that doesn't share scoring points. If they skate similarly at worlds next month, it's not like how well they did in the Oly team event will qualify a 3rd spot for next year. And Ashley, Melissa and Jason helping get that team bronze in Sochi got them zero bonus points when it came time to select the 18 team. What does bradie's rock solid sp and mirai's amazing 3a have to do with Karen falling 6 entire spots from worlds? Apples and oranges.
 
I have a different theory regarding US ladies: The US hasn’t gotten noticeably worse. Rather the rest of the World has caught up and in several cases, has passed by the US.

Going way back, we have had stars like Hamill, Yamaguchi and Kwan, but if you look at US ladies who were not huge stars but were the US no. 1 in their respective olympic cycles, they were just as wobbly as the current batch - Rosalynn Summers, Elaine Zayak, Tiffany Chin, Debi Thomas, Jill Trenary, Tonya Harding, Nancy Kerrigan, Nicole Bobek, Sasha Cohen, Kimmie Meissner and then everyone after 2008. They were skittish competitors, but the competition was a lot less fierce. Then Mao and Yu Na arrived on the Senior scene after Torino in 2006 (two big stars), so it's revealing how US ladies still achieved podium finishes until 2007, despite a shaky performance here and there, because the US only had to contend with one foreign star who had the talent to win outright (only very occasionally two) at any given time before Mao and Yu Na in 2007 (Ex - Witt, Ito, Baiul - that last one is questionable :p). Now, Japan’s current elite ladies have adequately made up for the loss of Mao and Miki, Korea is coming up, and the Russian Tsunami is already swamping the world

I also don’t think the USFSA ever fully and completely recovered from the elimination of 6.0 and emphasizes safe programs to an extent. It can work rarely (Lysacek - 2010) but that doesn’t really win under IJS anymore. Our most high profile coach Frank Carroll was big on not allowing his students to place a jump in a program unless it had a 90 percent success rate. Trapped in 6.0 mentality

Parental interference is discussed. That could be a factor too: They pay big money and want a say even if their opinion is not grounded in reality. *Cough* Nathan Chen *Cough*
 
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berthesghost said:
this is officially the lowest USA ladies have ever finished in the entire history of the olys. Even after the plane crash they managed 6, 7, and 8th. Glass half full optimists can quibble all they want over the word "bombed" but when 6 programs are all delivered with errors and the end result is the lowest ranking in a 90 year history, what word does one use
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It’s not about being a ‘glass half full optimist’, it’s about being real.

If a skater goes out onto the ice and skates how they usually skate, or a little better even, but doesn’t make the podium, that’s not bombing. They can accomplish many personal goals and not be on the podium. The skater themselves is successful.

This year you have a team Bronze. Bradie achieves her goal just by making the team. Mirai achieves her goal with a couple of great programs and a 3A.

But at the same time, yes, US Ladies as a whole aren’t having the success that fans may have been used to in the past.

The two things aren’t exclusive of each other and they do not have to go hand in hand.

I know the USA always likes to be on top, but sometimes, you’re just not. It works in reverse too. Some countries have one or two sensational skaters, but they can’t make the team event.

I find the National obsession of USA always thinking that it should be their athletes on top a little odd. Obviously not every country can be on top, so yes, maybe there will be a period of rebuilding while you wait for more new superstars to emerge.

I doubt Mirai will go another 4 years but Bradie and Karen probably will. Starr is being groomed to step up, and no doubt, three and a half years from now, some other young star will emerge.

The skaters now haven’t failed, but at the same time, things can be put in place by US figure skating to give the next group of athletes a better chance in 2022. Maybe that’s the optimistic bit, expecting US Figure Skating to come up with a good plan.
 
insideedgeua said:
Even then, they were slammed by some people on here for not being good enough Or not ‘wanting it’ enough.

It’s really not surprising that some skaters crack under the pressure.
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:huh: I think there are definite physical and emotional reasons on why Ashley and Gracie declined after Boston and didn’t make it to Korea and none of them have anything to do with what a few snarky posters said on FSU.

Boston will always be that beacon of light in a decade of us lady darkness. After Korea, the only way is up I guess
 
It's real. Mirai went goofy and shot her irreverent mouth off in an interview, and then walked it back later. I have a feeling Tom may have had a few words with her...
 
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