From Russia with Love [#33]: Summer 2019

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mjb52

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And controlled by their own Botox-ed Svengali. Jokes aside, I feel for these girls. It's not a unique situation to have young (and sometimes unpopular) Olympic champions. Oksana, Tara, Sarah, Adelina all "came out of nowhere" to upset the favorites. Timing has always been a huge factor. But the factory feeling is new and unique. The level of talent is amazing, yet these girls aren't even percieved as individuals. Whoever falls back will be discarded like a dirty old shoe. There is no incentive for their team to stick with them through puberty. There is always the next little girl waiting in the wings.
I interpreted discarded to mean discarded by fans as the "it" skater, who then move on to the next "it" girl. No one said anything about Eteri so you jumped right there.

The entire post you quoted (ie the one above) is about Eteri.
 

muffinplus

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I interpreted discarded to mean discarded by fans as the "it" skater, who then move on to the next "it" girl. No one said anything about Eteri so you jumped right there.

"There is no incentive for their team to stick with them through puberty. There is always the next little girl waiting in the wings. "
 

starrynight

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It seems maybe Russian fans only like who is winning at that moment and then move on. The girls will be popular until they get second place. Then they become enemy like Medvedeva has become. I wonder how they will handle the second place backlash and hatred

Medvedeva was a bit different because she left Eteri. So she was labelled a traitor etc.

And I think it might even be a bit different with Zagitova because she wont be disappearing even if she never makes another world team. Much like Sotnikova, I’m certain that Zagitova has the goods to be a celebrity in Russia with product endorsements, magazine shoots and show skating.

It’s more the disappointment of a big hope that disappears off the radar that’s difficult to handle.
 

zebraswan

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It seems maybe Russian fans only like who is winning at that moment and then move on. The girls will be popular until they get second place. Then they become enemy like Medvedeva has become. I wonder how they will handle the second place backlash and hatred

"Russian fans" are not a monolith. Did you not see the huge section full of her fans with the giant banner at the test skates? There's one unhinged crazy person on here with a vendetta against her, some nuts on Youtube and Sports.ru, and of course there are haters like all top skaters have. But she still has tons of Russians rooting for her. The reception she gets when she competes at home now says it all.
 

Bigbird

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Valieva is precocious, she has all the skills but she doesn't know how to quite put them together yet. Kostornaia on the other hand does, she skates like a dream. Her problem is staying focused and not getting too excited, otherwise she can mess up her jumps. Alena does things that you just cannot teach.
 

muffinplus

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It's well-documented that she encourages unhealthy eating habits. There's no agenda in saying so.

I really don't want to start another discussion about this... but well-documented where? Maybe PM me. I know about Lipnitskaya obviously, but not sure where it comes from that Eteri encouraged it.. Anyways, I'm sure she is not a saint, but I am not sure I would go so far to say she thinks of her students as disposable or starves them for that matter? I think it's just a bit more complex than that
 
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Perky Shae Lynn

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Some people just have an anti-Eteri agenda /narrative, where she is this monster who starves children and doesn't care about anything but medals.
Eteri has developed an amazing system where little girls are trained to cleanly execute unprecedented technical content. Her pupils start having issues when they hit puberty. Lipnitskaya developed a major eating disorder. Medvedeva started getting injured due to her poor technique, and was lucky to escape an eating disorder as well. Eteri's current students have mentioned not drinking water during competitions to keep the weight down. When I look at her little girls, with their tiny arms and legs, the mother in me freaks out. I would really like to see one of her female students have a sustainable career. So far I don't think it's in the cards.

Eteri's camp views figure skating as a sprint, not a marathon. This approach takes a huge toll on female skaters, physically and mentally. It's unprecedented in figure skating, and I think the reasons are ethical. Many coaches simply will not go there. However, Martha and Bela Karolyi were very successful utilizing a similar system in artistic gymnastics. Earned them a lot of medals.

Just because people question Eteri's methods, doesn't mean they have an anti-Eteri agenda. It means they disagree with how she trains young female athletes.
 
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TAHbKA

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Has there ever been a coach who has had so many skaters at the top (or very close to the top) all at once from the same country? Some have had 2 but 4? :eek: The closest I can think of is Brian in the men's but they weren't all from the same country like Eteri has
I think Mishin w Yagudin/Pluschenko/Urmanov and Moskvina always had 2 teams going back to back - Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze/Kazakova/Dmitriev etc...
 

kwanfan1818

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Plus the Rusisan Ice Dance sagas from the '90's where teams would de-camp somewhere else when they felt they weren't getting enough attention.
 

hanca

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I think Mishin w Yagudin/Pluschenko/Urmanov and Moskvina always had 2 teams going back to back - Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze/Kazakova/Dmitriev etc...
Or Moser having the majority of the Russian senior pairs.
 

Marco

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It must be disheartening for Tuktamysheva to lose to Shchberkova this weekend. This layout is doable for Diva Tuk...

3axel2toe
3axel
3lutz euler 3sal [3lutz - 2axel]
3lutz
3flip
3loop
2axel3toe [3toe euler 3sal or even 3sal3toe]
 

hanca

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It must be disheartening for Tuktamysheva to lose to Shchberkova this weekend. This layout is doable for Diva Tuk...

3axel2toe
3axel
3lutz euler 3sal [3lutz - 2axel]
3lutz
3flip
3loop
2axel3toe [3toe euler 3sal or even 3sal3toe]
I would move it around a bit. All Tutberidze’s girls have two of their combinations among their last three elements to get those extra points. (But the last element is a solo jump, just in case one of the combinations didn’t happen to give them one more chance to attach the combination if need be.)
 

TAHbKA

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Diva Tuk would need a programme to be even remotely competitive. The no.programme with no costume in Italy was sort of a middle finger towards the jusges...
 

Japanfan

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This. It is my big issue with her skating. She has a triple axel but almost nothing else in the actual skating, choreography or spins realm. Even though you can’t really compare across competitions, Med with not the best technical performance in the free scored 2 points higher at Autumn classic, as well as in the short.

I totally disagree with your view and the view of the poster you responded to.

Tuk Tuk has a commanding presence on the ice and a lot of sass. Many of the ladiezz bore me, but I never tire of watching Tuk Tuk.
 

starrynight

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Tuktamysheva has the kind of presence that comes with having built a name and reputation for herself. I distinctly know her personality due to her being on the scene for so long. So it’s fun to watch and follow her. I also enjoy her social media and interviews. Diva La Tuk is in the house!

A lot of that comes from having an appreciation of who she is as a person and following her for years. Having presence like that is different to just skating a complicated program. Sure Tukt mightn’t have the most intricate choreography, but she sure has a presence.

It’s very different to the latest junior girl who we havent got to know yet.

Ever since I saw Tukt in the 2014/2015 season, I have never really been able to like any other ladies as much because none of their jumps ever have looked as good as Tukt’s do and they don’t have that same Dark Russian Queen vibe she has that I just love. Tukt in a kaftan looking like Elizabeth Taylor is peak skating to me ha ha.
 
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muffinplus

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Eteri has developed an amazing system where little girls are trained to cleanly execute unprecedented technical content. Her pupils start having issues when they hit puberty. Lipnitskaya developed a major eating disorder. Medvedeva started getting injured due to her poor technique, and was lucky to escape an eating disorder as well. Eteri's current students have mentioned not drinking water during competitions to keep the weight down. When I look at her little girls, with their tiny arms and legs, the mother in me freaks out. I would really like to see one of her female students have a sustainable career. So far I don't think it's in the cards.

Eteri's camp views figure skating as a sprint, not a marathon. This approach takes a huge toll on female skaters, physically and mentally. It's unprecedented in figure skating, and I think the reasons are ethical. Many coaches simply will not go there. However, Martha and Bela Karolyi were very successful utilizing a similar system in artistic gymnastics. Earned them a lot of medals.

Just because people question Eteri's methods, doesn't mean they have an anti-Eteri agenda. It means they disagree with how she trains young female athletes.

I only think it is a bit of a blanket statement to imply that her students all look unhealthy (yes, they are tiny, but I would not say anorexic looking), as well as to attribute Medevdeva's injury to Eteri's technique ,as well as to say her students can't make it past puberty.

Zagitova seems to have survived puberty OK...so far, she looks better than last year? The only "unhealthy" looking one to me from her current camp of seniors is Anna. That said, doesn't her mom have the same kind of build? Kostornaia and Trusova both look "ok" to me.

The not drinking water thing is definitely f..d up, but I think Zagitova was the one who mentioned it said that about Olympics, I'm still not sure what that means, because there are videos of her drinking during competition?

It's one thing to say something about eating disorders in her camp... but it's not a singularly Eteri school issue 🤷 I just think it's another to imply she is starving her students and views them as totally disposable 🤷
 
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hanca

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Guys, please, let’s not repeat the whole discussion about what Tutberidze does and doesn’t do, and then others with arguments (and many links to articles and photos that don’t prove anything) to show how great Tutberidze is. I am getting a bit bored with this topic.
 

starrynight

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I think with the current batch of girls, they must have done a lot to deliberately select girls who are naturally very late bloomers.

Plenty of girls are almost fully grown by 13/14, but these young ones - especially Anna S - are now 15 and a half and haven't really started growing yet and are physically a lot younger than their ages. I don't know if there would be any way of keeping them that small this old without them being naturally pre-disposed to a late puberty.
 
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muffinplus

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Guys, please, let’s not repeat the whole discussion about what Tutberidze does and doesn’t do, and then others with arguments (and many links to articles and photos that don’t prove anything) to show how great Tutberidze is. I am getting a bit bored with this topic.

Sorry, I really didn't want to get into this discussion about Turberidze, as I agree that the topic is very overdone...it's just once in a while the things I read about her sound really over the top... so anyways, won't comment anymore on this.
 
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hanca

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I think with the current batch of girls, they must have done a lot to deliberately select girls who are naturally very, very late bloomers. Plenty of girls are almost fully grown by 13/14 (I was at my adult height and weight by that age), but these young ones - especially Anna - are still 15 and a half and haven't really started growing yet. I don't know if there would be any way of keeping them that small this old without them being naturally disposed to a late puberty.
Not necessarily. If you do a huge amount of exercise, it impacts on your growth. That’s why skaters often grow a lot during the summer holidays. If you are talking about puberty, many sportswomen have it later than the average population. While in general population many girls have it around the age of 13, in skating many ladies have figure changes much later - Lipnitskaya had it post Olympics (age 16), Sakhanovich started struggling during her third junior season (age 15-16), Radionova also around that age, Medvedeva changed her figure post Olympics (aged 18), Zagitova also post Olympics (aged 16)...
 
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BittyBug

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I don't follow junior closely but was intrigued by the comments about Valieva so I went to watch the clips of the RUS JPG. Except that I wasn't paying attention and first watched Vasilieva. I was surprised by her, thinking wow, she's not a pre-pubescent waif, has good jump technique, doesn't break at the waist, and doesn't seem like a typical Tutberidze skater, but I also wasn't seeing the performance factor that was mentioned here (about Valieva). And then when Vasilieva was done, was sitting with an unfamiliar looking coach in the K&C, and Barton mentioned that there was one more lady with quads to come I realized the reason Vasilieva didn't look like a Tutberidze skater is because she isn't one. :shuffle: And sure enough, there comes Valieva, a little wisp with quads and extreme flexibility injected into her choreo for no apparent rhyme or reason.

Valieva is no doubt very talented, but I don't see her as supremely artistic - certainly not like a young Gubanova or Kostornaia. But she is very young and has time to develop, assuming her technique and body holds up.

Anyway, the depth of ladies talent in Russia is phenomenal. And while one could argue that they benefit from state funding (and they do), if that were all it took we'd see the same depth in Russian men or ladies in China. And it's not just Tutberidze's camp, because there are many other talented ladies who do not skate in her program.
 

muffinplus

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Valieva is no doubt very talented, but I don't see her as supremely artistic - certainly not like a young Gubanova or Kostornaia. But she is very young and has time to develop, assuming her technique and body holds up.

Valieva is more artistic in the show versions of her program

 

oleada

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I don't follow junior closely but was intrigued by the comments about Valieva so I went to watch the clips of the RUS JPG. Except that I wasn't paying attention and first watched Vasilieva. I was surprised by her, thinking wow, she's not a pre-pubescent waif, has good jump technique, doesn't break at the waist, and doesn't seem like a typical Tutberidze skater, but I also wasn't seeing the performance factor that was mentioned here (about Valieva). And then when Vasilieva was done, was sitting with an unfamiliar looking coach in the K&C, and Barton mentioned that there was one more lady with quads to come I realized the reason Vasilieva didn't look like a Tutberidze skater is because she isn't one. :shuffle: And sure enough, there comes Valieva, a little wisp with quads and extreme flexibility injected into her choreo for no apparent rhyme or reason.

I'd give Sinitsyna a watch, especially the SP. I found her the most musical and artistic of the Russian ladies in Chelyabinsk.

Sergei Davydov is Vasilieva's coach :) He has a good crop of ladies coming up, too.
 
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BittyBug

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Sergei Davydov is Vasilieva's coach :) He has a good crop of ladies going up, too.
See I was confused there, too. When Barton mentioned Vasilieva's coach's name, I heard "Dudakov," because I was thinking she was with Tutberidze but did not recognize Davydov in the K&C. I'm embarassed by that because I was a big fan of his when he was skating.
 

BittyBug

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Valieva is more artistic in the show versions of her program
Thank you. I can see that now, and she does display much more sensitivity to the music. She also has beautiful spins with some innovative positions, and in that respect she reminds me a little bit of Sasha Cohen.

I do wish she'd drop the gratuitous high kicks, though, because to me they distract rather than complement the choreography.
 

rfisher

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See I was confused there, too. When Barton mentioned Vasilieva's coach's name, I heard "Dudakov," because I was thinking she was with Tutberidze but did not recognize Davydov in the K&C. I'm embarassed by that because I was a big fan of his when he was skating.
It's easy to get confused with the Russian ladies. The juniors are often better technically than 99% of seniors (except the other Russia phenoms), and there are several coaching camps. You almost need a score card to keep everybody separate. And, many of them want to go to Tutberidze (or their parents want them to) simply because of her success rate. That's always been the case with any coach who has highly successful skaters. But, not all of them have the drive and temperament it takes to succeed in the Tutberidze environment. If you don't have that, you won't last more than a season. You have to be a competitor on the practice rink. Those that are, are also fierce competitors in competitions. There are others who have the skills and the innate artistry, but they simply don't have either the work ethic or basic competitive nature. The problem then is there are only three slots for Worlds and the Olympics which is the ultimate goal. Russian ladies at this point in time, simply doesn't allow skaters to develop over time because there are others who will take those elusive three spots. It's not like Italy or even the US where skaters can go through bad years and still be number one because the number two and three skaters are way down in the ranks.
 

muffinplus

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I'd give Sinitsyna a watch, especially the SP. I found her the most musical and artistic of the Russian ladies in Chelyabinsk.

Sergei Davydov is Vasilieva's coach :) He has a good crop of ladies coming up, too.

Which program. The short or the long?
 
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