From Russia with Love [#33]: Summer 2019

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starrynight

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Just dropping in to say how impressed I am with this extraordinary come back that Tuktamysheva is staging. She's certainly showing that last season wasn't a fluke.

Three triple axels across two programs, a brand new combination - at the beginning of September?. Wow. Who would have thought a couple of seasons ago?

She's getting so much better as she grows older and what a thing in Russian ladies skating!

My personal feeling is that if Tuktamysheva just holds on and keeps working like this, she may well surprise everyone.
 

love_skate2011

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I don’t think it is only about the technical mark though. Pavliuschenko/Khodykin managed to beat Boikova/Kozlovski at the junior worlds, then both pairs moved to the seniors at the same time and B/K has been doing better than P/K in seniors, even though P/K has harder jumps. But B/K has been better at the basic skating, they looked much more as a senior pair than P/K and it was reflected in the marks they have been getting. I don’t think Mishina/Galliamov have the same skating skills as B/K and it is quite possible that skating among seniors, they will look a bit lost (the same way as P/K did the last season). I definitely don’t think that this season M/G will be any threat to B/K.

sure P/K will take some time for them they are still juniorish, M/G are not while they don't have the skating skills of B/K they are better in other areas, jumps, elements, lifts. The PCS will increase with consistency, Power skaters will always beat so called skaters relying on PCS buffer.
 

love_skate2011

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Just dropping in to say how impressed I am with this extraordinary come back that Tuktamysheva is staging. She's certainly showing that last season wasn't a fluke.

Three triple axels across two programs, a brand new combination - at the beginning of September?. Wow. Who would have thought a couple of seasons ago?

She's getting so much better as she grows older and what a thing in Russian ladies skating!

My personal feeling is that if Tuktamysheva just holds on and keeps working like this, she may well surprise everyone.

she only has this quad left, she better make this make a make it or break it, her chance of going to Olympics is slim but this will be her last chance. Shes more talented than Yukari Nakano that's for sure.
 

Ka3sha

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B/K are on another level right now (in comparison with P/K and M/G) and it is evident when you are watching live. They are polished, stylish and mature, their skating doesn’t look juniorish or labored. They are better in terms of skating skills and presentation.

M/G are not while they don't have the skating skills of B/K they are better in other areas, jumps, elements, lifts. The PCS will increase with consistency, Power skaters will always beat so called skaters relying on PCS buffer.
Jumps - maybe, but their twist and throws are on the same level as M/G, and their lifts are even more secure and have more interesting positions.


Pavliuchenko/Khodykin have improved a lot since last year, but he is still not good enough.
 

love_skate2011

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B/K are on another level right now (in comparison with P/K and M/G) and it is evident when you are watching live. They are polished, stylish and mature, their skating doesn’t look juniorish or labored. They are better in terms of skating skills and presentation.


Jumps - maybe, but their twist and throws are on the same level as M/G, and their lifts are even more secure and have more interesting positions.


Pavliuchenko/Khodykin have improved a lot since last year, but he is still not good enough.

Kozlovsky lifts don't look secure to me, Galliamov lifts are strong, sure they stop a bit when putting her down but that is all. M/G throws and jumps are much bigger too. M/G actually have a higher ceiling potential, they are raw power skaters capable of huge upgrade than B/K.
 

starrynight

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she only has this quad left, she better make this make a make it or break it, her chance of going to Olympics is slim but this will be her last chance. Shes more talented than Yukari Nakano that's for sure.

I think Russian ladies skating moves too quickly for there to be any point in focusing on anything other than the immediate present. Right now Tukt has 3 triple axels and that's what matters.

Right now is everyone's last chance. While I may be surprised, I expect there's no guarantees for Shcherbakova as she gets older. She's a very tiny little thing, but no one can escape adulthood whatever they do.
 

hanca

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I think Russian ladies skating moves too quickly for there to be any point in focusing on anything other than the immediate present. Right now Tukt has 3 triple axels and that's what matters.

Right now is everyone's last chance. While I may be surprised, I expect there's no guarantees for Shcherbakova as she gets older. She's a very tiny little thing, but no one can escape adulthood whatever they do.

Right now Tuktamysheva may be in the best beginning of the season’s shape she has ever been, but she was still beaten by Scherbakova this weekend. Skating moved on and even though she has three triple axels in two programs, she needs to be using full triple jumps allowance (8 triples including two double axels in the FS, not only seven triples). The fact that she has the triple axel doesn’t mean that she can afford to leave another triple jump out. For it to be any advantage, she needs to have the triple axel in addition to whatever the rest of the field are doing.
 

starrynight

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Right now Tuktamysheva may be in the best beginning of the season’s shape she has ever been, but she was still beaten by Scherbakova this weekend. Skating moved on and even though she has three triple axels in two programs, she needs to be using full triple jumps allowance (8 triples including two double axels in the FS, not only seven triples). The fact that she has the triple axel doesn’t mean that she can afford to leave another triple jump out. For it to be any advantage, she needs to have the triple axel in addition to whatever the rest of the field are doing.

I just think in this current climate it's important that Russian ladies skating doesn't implode under it's own weight by constantly comparing all the girls.

Doing 3 triple axels is a massive achievement regardless of what others are doing. And what others are doing doesn't invalidate Liza's achievements or make them any less spectacular. Again, I'll say that as a grown woman, they are great achievements in skating. I'm still not prepared to be comparing the tiny girls with the grown ladies who have had long careers. I think it's two very different things and they are competing from very different places in many ways.

There's already so much viciousness about all these skaters (although thank goodness FSU is so much better than other forums). My funniest moment of the season so far was all the criticism elsewhere of Medvedeva's SP costume (which I thought was great) and how 'Eteri would never let her girls skate in that' and it turns out that it was made by the same designer who did all of Eteri's girls' costumes this season LOL.

It would just be a shame to get to a point where all everyone does is criticise each of the girls to the point where there is no enjoyment by anyone.
 

love_skate2011

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Doing 3 triple axels is a massive achievement regardless of what others are doing. And what others are doing doesn't invalidate Liza's achievements or make them any less spectacular. Again, I'll say that as a grown woman, they are great achievements in skating. I'm still not prepared to be comparing the tiny girls with the grown ladies who have had long careers. I think it's two very different things.

I don't think they are dismissing Liza, they are just saying her layout is poor and needs more transitions to maximize her chances. Many agree its a huge achievement , a full mature woman is is still competing in 3 Olympic cycles even now with russian ladies depth.

cmon she has outlasted Sotnikova, Lip, Radionova, Pogorilaya, Tsurskaya, Sotskova lol
 

hanca

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I just think in this current climate it's important that Russian ladies skating doesn't implode under it's own weight by constantly comparing all the girls.

Doing 3 triple axels is a massive achievement regardless of what others are doing. And what others are doing doesn't invalidate Liza's achievements or make them any less spectacular. Again, I'll say that as a grown woman, they are great achievements in skating. I'm still not prepared to be comparing the tiny girls with the grown ladies who have had long careers. I think it's two very different things and they are competing from very different places in many ways.

There's already so much viciousness about all these skaters (although thank goodness FSU is so much better than other forums). My funniest moment of the season so far was all the criticism elsewhere of Medvedeva's SP costume (which I thought was great) and how 'Eteri would never let her girls skate in that' and it turns out that it was made by the same designer who did all of Eteri's girls' costumes this season LOL.

It would just be a shame to get to a point where all everyone does is criticise each of the girls to the point where there is no enjoyment by anyone.
Doing triple axels is definitely a huge achievement, but unfortunately on its own it is not what brings the rewards. Mao Asada with her triple axels was often beaten by Yuna Kim, Mirai Nagasu with her triple axels doesn’t even have a worlds medal and Liza has not managed to get to the Olympics. If she has had those triple axels 6-7 years ago, she would stand out. Unfortunately for her, she managed to get them stable now, when there is a few more skaters who do triple axels and a few more who do quads. That doesn’t help her to stand out anymore. Bad timing!
 

rfisher

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I just think in this current climate it's important that Russian ladies skating doesn't implode under it's own weight by constantly comparing all the girls.

Doing 3 triple axels is a massive achievement regardless of what others are doing. And what others are doing doesn't invalidate Liza's achievements or make them any less spectacular. Again, I'll say that as a grown woman, they are great achievements in skating. I'm still not prepared to be comparing the tiny girls with the grown ladies who have had long careers. I think it's two very different things and they are competing from very different places in many ways.

There's already so much viciousness about all these skaters (although thank goodness FSU is so much better than other forums). My funniest moment of the season so far was all the criticism elsewhere of Medvedeva's SP costume (which I thought was great) and how 'Eteri would never let her girls skate in that' and it turns out that it was made by the same designer who did all of Eteri's girls' costumes this season LOL.

It would just be a shame to get to a point where all everyone does is criticise each of the girls to the point where there is no enjoyment by anyone.
There's no denying it's a great achievement, and she's only 22 not 50. :lol: But, and it's a big one, she wants to go back to Worlds and really, really wants to go to the Olympics. Six years ago a single 3A won her a world championship. That's just not enough today. It's very possible 3 3As won't be enough. Kihira has that. You has one, and is no doubt working to add more. Liu has 3 and will be Olympic age eligible by 2022. Lots of skaters are working on 3As and quads. But You and Liu aren't her concern. She has to get past Russian nationals to even be considered for Worlds this year. That's not going to be easy. In fact, it's going to take perfection and increasing her base value to do so. The fact Russia didn't send her to Worlds last season was a clear indication that getting to the GPF isn't enough. Assurances to Mishin aren't enough. Today showed having three 3As isn't enough. I like Liza a lot and am rooting hard for her to reach her goal, but I'm also realistic enough to know she's got an uphill battle to get there. In any other country but Russia, she'd be national champion and going to worlds and the olympics with her jump technique. But, she's a Russian skater and they just aren't the rest of the world at this point in time.
 

starrynight

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It's more just a comment on the state of Russian ladies skating. I sort of almost feel like there's so much depth, the coaching camps of Mishin and Tutberidze have split into two 'nations'. So those who are fans of Tutberidze basically view that camp as being it's own nation state which they are patriotic to. It's moved well beyond just being pro-Russia. Fascinating stuff.

There's no denying it's a great achievement, and she's only 22 not 50.

lol I know she's young, but when you see how utterly young her competitors are (15 going on 10 lol) it means something I think! ha ha

But I'm choosing to enjoy these achievements without being caught up in what her competitors are doing. I just don't want to not appreciate them as they are happening and then look back in a couple of seasons' time and realise what I missed.
 
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rfisher

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It's more just a comment on the state of Russian ladies skating. I sort of almost feel like there's so much depth, the coaching camps of Mishin and Tutberidze have split into two 'nations'. So those who are fans of Tutberidze basically view that camp as being it's own nation state which they are patriotic to. It's moved well beyond just being pro-Russia. Fascinating stuff.
To me, it's a chess match between Tutberidze and Mishin. Tutberidze won the first move and put Mishin's Queen in check. It's Mishin's turn now. :watch:
 

hanca

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It's more just a comment on the state of Russian ladies skating. I sort of almost feel like there's so much depth, the coaching camps of Mishin and Tutberidze have split into two 'nations'. So those who are fans of Tutberidze basically view that camp as being it's own nation state which they are patriotic to. It's moved well beyond just being pro-Russia. Fascinating stuff.
I don’t think I agree with that. I commented here because I believe what I wrote is true. I am definitely not taking any sides between camp Mishin versus camp Tutberidze. I like many Tutberidze’s skaters, but I also like many non-Tutberidze’s skaters. Last season I really liked Samodurova. (This season at the test skates not so much because she didn’t look very competition ready, but that’s another matter). But as rfisher expressed above, a few years ago one triple axel was enough. Now even three triple axels may not be enough because other skaters are doing also triple axels and quads. It is a huge achievement for Liza, she is a great skater, but it may not get her to the Europeans, worlds and Olympics. It is sad that places for championships are per country rather than per achievements. So maximum three per country can be send as opposed to skaters with the top 24 season best scores. Unfortunately, in ladies, the Russian nationals will have higher level of skating that European figure skating championships.
 

rfisher

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It's more just a comment on the state of Russian ladies skating. I sort of almost feel like there's so much depth, the coaching camps of Mishin and Tutberidze have split into two 'nations'. So those who are fans of Tutberidze basically view that camp as being it's own nation state which they are patriotic to. It's moved well beyond just being pro-Russia. Fascinating stuff.



lol I know she's young, but when you see how utterly young her competitors are (15 going on 10 lol) it means something I think! ha ha

But I'm choosing to enjoy these achievements without being caught up in what her competitors are doing. I just don't want to not appreciate them as they are happening and then look back in a couple of seasons' time and realise what I missed.
Well, she had been doing a 3A for years. :lol: She just hasn't done them in competition until recently. So she started learning them at about the same age as the the youngsters.
 

hanca

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To me, it's a chess match between Tutberidze and Mishin. Tutberidze won the first move and put Mishin's Queen in check. It's Mishin's turn now. :watch:
Well, Tutberidze should start making sure that Alysa Liu will not do check mate in two year’s time. Scherbakova and Trusova may be easily beating triple axels with their own quads, but when you have triple lutz against triple lutz, the competition suddenly gets harder.
 

Ena Grins

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It's more just a comment on the state of Russian ladies skating. I sort of almost feel like there's so much depth, the coaching camps of Mishin and Tutberidze have split into two 'nations'. So those who are fans of Tutberidze basically view that camp as being it's own nation state which they are patriotic to. It's moved well beyond just being pro-Russia. Fascinating stuff.

TBH I find it pretty weird and almost disturbing, rather than fascinating, the way people are becoming fans of a coaching camp. I mean, people were having meltdowns because a skater in "Team Tutberidze" didn't have as high PCS as they thought she should have in a single short program in an early Challenger series event. I'm liking a lot of the Russian ladies and am looking forward to what they achieve and how things shake out this season, but that kind of blindly dramatic and hypocritical behavior from "fans" is going to make things hard to follow online.
 

starrynight

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Well, Tutberidze should start making sure that Alysa Liu will not do check mate in two year’s time.

Gosh, who even knows what will happen in 2022. Puberty could hit all of them with a big stick for all we know and Tukt could win with her three triple axels :biggrinbo. lol literally who knows. I wouldn't even think of 2022 right now.

but that kind of blindly dramatic and hypocritical behavior from "fans" is going to make things hard to follow online.

But most of it is so hysterical and dramatic that I find it deeply amusing. I actually burst out laughing at some of it.
 

rfisher

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Well, Tutberidze should start making sure that Alysa Liu will not do check mate in two year’s time. Scherbakova and Trusova may be easily beating triple axels with their own quads, but when you have triple lutz against triple lutz, the competition suddenly gets harder.
I've no doubt her team is well aware that the game isn't all theirs now and they are watching and planning accordingly. The only problem is kids at this age can change dramatically in a year. What Liu does now and what she's doing in two years....who knows? But, the successful skaters at camp Tutberidze are all highly motivated and competitive same as Liu. Who will come out on top in 2022 is anybody's guess.
 

Ka3sha

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I feel like Tukt is a very one-dimensional skater who has staked everything on her jumps, esp the 3A. That by itself is not enough when current competitors can do both jumps and everything else.
Yep, with current scoring system it won’t be enough, but I always wonder why she doesn’t get high GOEs for her absolutely wonderful jumps executed with great height and ease, when other skaters like all those Tutberidze juniors can easily get +4 only because they hold some ugly transition/position on the landing for like 1 second :rolleyes:

I mean, we all know that Liza doesn’t deserve high 8s or 9s in PCS , but nor does some of the up-coming juniors...
But at least give her the GOEs she deserves!
 

hanca

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It seems to me that until now Tutberidze always managed to find something to give her skaters the edge. Her first project Shelepen was a bit undercooked, it was probably a learning experience for Tutberidze, but then came Lipnitskaya who stood out with her amazing flexibility. (Nowadays it would be nothing special because many Russian skaters have the same flexibility, but at that time it was novelty and something that made her stand out). After that it was Medvedeva and Sakhanovich with all those tanos, which was increasing their technical mark. No one else could manage to tano all their jumps, so they again stood out. Then when tanos became much more common, Zagitova and Panenkova moved all their jumps to the second half of the program and judges again had to give them the extra marks. Now this door has been closed, but in the meantime she already has skaters doing quads. I don’t doubt that the quads will become much more common (at least within Russia), so I am really curious what the next step will be. Having a full set of quads? (without the axel, of course) Where else can she go? Her skaters already have spins and steps level 4, so they hit the ceiling, where else to get the extra points?
 

Polaris

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TBH I find it pretty weird and almost disturbing, rather than fascinating, the way people are becoming fans of a coaching camp. I mean, people were having meltdowns because a skater in "Team Tutberidze" didn't have as high PCS as they thought she should have in a single short program in an early Challenger series event. I'm liking a lot of the Russian ladies and am looking forward to what they achieve and how things shake out this season, but that kind of blindly dramatic and hypocritical behavior from "fans" is going to make things hard to follow online.

Some posters are really living their life through Eteri's skaters and it shows. You'd think their houses got robbed with the kind of self righteous outrage they're displaying.
 

starrynight

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but I always wonder why she doesn’t get high GOEs for her absolutely wonderful jumps executed with great height and ease, when other skaters like all those Tutberidze juniors can easily get +4 only because they hold some ugly transition/position on the landing for like 1 second :rolleyes:

I agree with this completely. It's the 'Bambi Lutz' that I hate the most. You know, bend right down at the waist and then toothpick legs hammering down into the ice and legs flailing in the air. I never understand how one of Liza's lutz jumps isn't a million points higher than a Bambi Lutz. No amount of steps into a Bambi Lutz should justify the points some of them are given.
 

hanca

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I've no doubt her team is well aware that the game isn't all theirs now and they are watching and planning accordingly. The only problem is kids at this age can change dramatically in a year. What Liu does now and what she's doing in two years....who knows? But, the successful skaters at camp Tutberidze are all highly motivated and competitive same as Liu. Who will come out on top in 2022 is anybody's guess.
Of course, I know, but the issue won’t be only Liu. If now several skaters has the triple axels, it seems to me that the invisible ceiling has been broken and those skaters will probably continue with getting quads.
 

rfisher

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Of course, I know, but the issue won’t be only Liu. If now several skaters has the triple axels, it seems to me that the invisible ceiling has been broken and those skaters will probably continue with getting quads.
And the playing field will be leveled until some skater does something new to give them an advantage. Who and what that will be is what makes skating interesting.
 
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