Fire in Notre Dame Cathedral

[made_in_canada]

@becca, many people have fairly gently explained why your choice of words was offensive to them. Intention doesn’t really matter in communication, it’s about how your words are perceived. Maybe try a thank you for making you aware of how your word choice is being perceived? It’s really not about you. Or just say you don’t care if you’re offending people.

 

[skatesindreams]

Update about potential causes which are being investigated:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/20/europe/notre-dame-fire-investigation-intl/index.html

 

[Vagabond]

You're doing more damage than good to your own cause.
Shhhhh.
No, they are not and you're just digging yourself a bigger hole

@becca, many people have fairly gently explained why your choice of words was offensive to them. Intention doesn’t really matter in communication, it’s about how your words are perceived. Maybe try a thank you for making you aware of how your word choice is being perceived?

For goodness sake becca--when you're in a hole, stop digging! You're just making it worse...

Shhhhh.

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/republican-debate.96131/page-27#post-4709675

 

[allezfred]

As a fellow Christian I feel hurt that this particular thread has been chosen to pick upon Catholicism.

Christians, just like all other people, get hurt when their identity is picked apart.

As a gay child brought up Catholic in an overwhelmingly Catholic country where the church exerted total control over the state, I can tell you that Catholics/Christians in here have no idea what it is really like to be picked upon.

 

[hanca]

@becca, many people have fairly gently explained why your choice of words was offensive to them. Intention doesn’t really matter in communication, it’s about how your words are perceived. Maybe try a thank you for making you aware of how your word choice is being perceived? It’s really not about you. Or just say you don’t care if you’re offending people.

I am not sure if it is always responsibility of the speaker to make sure that he/she doesn’t offend. One can’t control how other people decide to interpret the speaker’s words. If I tell you that I find your posts offensive, are you going to change so that you don’t offend me? You may find out that you are bending backwards to accommodate me and I still manage to get offended. I think the intention count as much as the way how the words are perceived. I would say, it is 50:50 between the speaker and the one who does the perceiving.

 

[IceAlisa]

I am thrilled to know about the bees being safe. I love the idea

 

[cocotaffy]

I am thrilled to know about the bees being safe. I love the idea

I keep thinking that when you smoke bees they get calm, well after that fire they must have slept for 2 days !!!
Joke aside, it is amazing so much have made it out of this inferno. Wonder if the honey will have a smokey taste though
As for the "lacking religion" debate, the only thing popping through my mind was this. Wonder if they could do a new version "Lacking religion" I guess the lyrics: "Oh no, I've said too much, I haven't said enough" is particularly applicable here

 

[Vagabond]

I guess the lyrics: "Oh no, I've said too much, I haven't said enough" is particularly applicable here

I was thinking more of these.

 

[made_in_canada]

I am not sure if it is always responsibility of the speaker to make sure that he/she doesn’t offend. One can’t control how other people decide to interpret the speaker’s words. If I tell you that I find your posts offensive, are you going to change so that you don’t offend me? You may find out that you are bending backwards to accommodate me and I still manage to get offended. I think the intention count as much as the way how the words are perceived. I would say, it is 50:50 between the speaker and the one who does the perceiving.

Speaking only for myself, I know I’ve been called out for my word choice before and I’ve appreciated it. Many people on this board through sharing their perspectives have changed how I speak about LGBT issues, racial issues, etc... Sure some people are determined to be offended no matter what, and there are some issues I really don’t care if I offend people. But if you don’t want to offend people, listening to them is a good step in the right direction.

Within the context of the Catholic Church and religion in general, I think it’s important to remember that many, many people have been hurt by the church/religion and for some it’s to the point of trauma. So a little sensitivity goes a long way.

 

[ballettmaus]

I wont use the words lack again. However I must say this kindly. Is it terrible if people think one is wrong?

When it comes to religion, yes. It has been and still is the cause for wars because certain religions thought and think their religion is right and everyone else's is wrong. Kind of ironic if you consider the fact that religion is supposed to be all about tolerance.
Religion and belief is personal. We all believe what we want to believe and we all should be allowed to no matter where we are in the world. Our believes differ and we all have the right to disagree. But when it comes to believes, there is no right or wrong. It's all about what we can live with and are comfortable with and respecting the individual.

 

[hanca]

I agree with trying to be sensitive, but at the same time, when Becca wrote lack of religion, from her post it was pretty clear that she wasn’t trying to offend anyone. So even if her choice of words -lack of - indicated that she thinks someone may be missing/lacking something, it doesn’t mean that the person in question feels the same. Nevertheless, it is no reason to get offended. Yes, of course people CAN get offended, but they can also get offended for any reason whatsoever or no reason at all. I really can’t see why innocent post needed such a long discussion.

 

[becca]

When it comes to religion, yes. It has been and still is the cause for wars because certain religions thought and think their religion is right and everyone else's is wrong. Kind of ironic if you consider the fact that religion is supposed to be all about tolerance.
Religion and belief is personal. We all believe what we want to believe and we all should be allowed to no matter where we are in the world. Our believes differ and we all have the right to disagree. But when it comes to believes, there is no right or wrong. It's all about what we can live with and are comfortable with and respecting the individual.

Thank you for pointing out I didn’t mean Ill will.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that there is no right or wrong. In some areas there are. But that’s just a different world view.

However I do agree that no one should be killing over religion or disagreements. I didn’t say lack of as a means of offending one or saying anyone was bad. And there is agree to disagree about a lot of life choices people make. I do believe freedom to make own choices.

I actually don’t bear Ill will to those who see things different.

Frankly I feel attitudes like religions are only giving to charities to indoctrinate or you are are brainwashed for saying lack of religion displays far more ill will.

I feel like I am being jumped on and purposely read the wrong way. Just because I see things different.

Once again I have never ever said anyone was a bad person because they didn’t have a religion or that religion automatically makes someone a good person. I don’t feel that way.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Becca... lack means being without or not having enough of something. In this context it is easy to see it as pejorative.

So if you do not follow the tenets of a religion I can see that a Christian would see that as a lack. But it is not a lack for the other guy.

BTW. IMO...it takes as much faith to believe as to be an athiest. The atheist and the believer are following a decision for which there is no proof.

 

[becca]

Becca... lack means being without or not having enough of something. In this context it is easy to see it as pejorative.

So if you do not follow the tenets of a religion I can see that a Christian would see that as a lack. But it is not a lack for the other guy.

BTW. IMO...it takes as much faith to believe as to be an athiest. The atheist and the believer are following a decision for which there is no proof.

I honestly wasn’t thinking of my word choice. Or attempting to mean anything was only trying to say that Catholic charities does care if someone has religion or doesn’t have a religion. That was it.

As for lack I understand how some don’t think they need it. I don’t judge Folks for that. I went through a time of struggle with faith myself so I don’t judge others for it.

I don’t look at it as I am some heroic person because i believe in God and someone else is bad because they don’t. I have experienced Gods presence in a very strong way. I can’t explain it but I know He is real.

Other people have not had that experience and maybe if they did they would believe. So I don’t judge people for not believing.

But do I think folks miss out. The only way I can explain it is how my Aunt. She has strong faith and mentioned without it she doesn’t know how she would have gotten through her husbands death. “How do people deal when they don’t have The Lord.”

And that’s how I feel I agree one almost has to be stronger without Him.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I honestly wasn’t thinking of my word choice.

Becca, not only i lack religion, i often frown upon it. But... i did NOT find your phrase "lack of religion" offensive.

"Lack" means "without". And i am "without" religion. What you said is fine.

If others did not raise a stink over your phrasing, partially because "some don't like you because of your other views", i would not have even blinked about your post. Don't take it personal. FSU is a small group of people, with "certain leans", and many people apply their leans towards everything..

 

[JJH]

I feel this is a very 1970s thing for me to say, but this is entire kerfluffle is arguing semantics.

 

[hanca]

Becca, not only i lack religion, i often frown upon it. But... i did NOT find your phrase "lack of religion" offensive.

"Lack" means "without". And i am "without" religion. What you said is fine.

If others did not raise a stink over your phrasing, partially because "some don't like you because of your other views", i would not have even blinked about your post. Don't take it personal. FSU is a small group of people, with "certain leans", and many people apply their leans towards everything..

I wouldn’t say I frown upon religion, I just don’t give a damn about it. (When one was brought up for 15 years with thinking that existence of something is just in fairy tales, it can be hard to accept without any proper proof that suddenly it exist.) But beside this tiny detail, I strongly agree with your post. I feel Becca was ‘corrected’ not so much for what she said, but because of ‘who’ said it. If a popular poster wrote the same, noone would say a word.

If Becca says that I lack religion, I don’t care that Becca may imply or even believe that I am missing out on something. As long as I don’t feel that I am missing out, all is fine. Becca can have her own opinion on what I am missing, but as long as she doesn’t act on it and try to force religion down my throat, all is well. So yes, I am lacking religion. No offensive to me at all.

 

[misskarne]

But do I think folks miss out. The only way I can explain it is how my Aunt. She has strong faith and mentioned without it she doesn’t know how she would have gotten through her husbands death. “How do people deal when they don’t have The Lord.”

Miss out? I didn't miss out a damn. You know what did suck? Religious people approaching me after the death of my grandfather and saying that "God means everything to happen for a reason". Fcuk those people. Fcuk the people who told my grandmother that she should pray and that would heal her loss of her soulmate. You know why my grandmother healed? Because my grandfather wanted her to. Because she is strong, and proud, and fiercely intelligent, and is proud of her grandchildren and wants to see what they achieve.

The Catholic Church is an evil, corrupt corporation with billions of dollars, yet they still do things like beg for collections to pay for Pell's $200,000 a week QC whose chief argument was that his rape of a child wasn't that bad because it was vanilla sex.

I don't think it's wrong for people to be angry that the Church has not yet pledged any money to the rebuild.

 

[Japanfan]

Lack and no are the same thing.

No, they are not the same thing. 'No' can be a positive, as in 'there is no cold weather in Florida', or a negative, as in 'there is no rain in Florida', in which case there might be drought.

'Lack' almost always implies an absence of something that is desirable. Examples: '__ lacks motivation', 'the refugees have a lack of food, water, and basic necessities', 'the lack of sunshine up north in the winter can cause depression'.

Although the word could be used positively (i.e. we were lucky to have a lack of freezing weather this past winter), it rarely is.

I won’t use that phrase but frankly I was trying to say I didn’t mean anything bad.

I don't think you intended anything bad, Becca. I do think that your strong views about the value of religion may have influenced your choice of words.

'Lack' infers a judgement, but people make judgements of others all the time, especially in regard to things that are important to them. Even those who try to practice tolerance.

It is good to take step back aside and recognize a judgement for what it is: a judgement, which may be of limited value.

I was trying to kindly say my words lack of religion didn’t mean I felt someone was bad. But instead I get called brainwashed.

FWIW, it looks to me like you have put a good deal of thought and self-examination into your faith and your practice of it.

As for indoctrination that is not why help the poor at least not why I do out of some hope someone will convert.

It is one of the reasons frankly I am Catholic and not Evangelical like I was raised.

Christianity is by nature an evangelical religion? How is Catholicism different?

Is it terrible if people think one is wrong?

Not necessarily, it happens all the time when others disagree one's views - again, especially if those views are strong. But, it often is a judgement, and something crosses into intolerance.

And thinking someone is wrong about someone doesn’t translate necessarily into judgement or this person is a bad person.

But, it can.

Of course I frankly think people miss out when they don’t have a faith because in the hard times in my life that is what I turn to. But I don’t look at anyone as bad person. Not everyone grew up in a religion some had bad experiences. Etc.

I sometimes envy people who have faith because of that. But, I very strong value having an independent mind and questioning established belief systems.

 

[MsZem]

I think Becca has been very clear that she is not arguing that people who are not religious feel (or should feel) like there is something missing in their lives. I certainly don't.

Notre Dame is a treasure whether it ties to one's faith or "only" because we appreciate its historical and cultural significance. We're fortunate not to have lost it - or its bees

 

[misskarne]

I think Becca has been very clear that she is not arguing that people who are not religious feel (or should feel) like there is something missing in their lives. I certainly don't

She literally just said "I feel like folks are missing out".

 

[MsZem]

She literally just said "I feel like folks are missing out".

Missing out on something she values, not missing something everyone must value.

But is all this really relevant to this thread? If people relate to Notre Dame through their faith, it doesn't compel the rest of us to do so.

I'll be visiting Paris soon and hope to see what everything looks like up close (or as close as tourists are allowed). Also, patisserie awaits

 

[attyfan]

Some of the "yellow vests" are protesting the money given to Notre Dame when there is nothing for "Les Miserables":

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/20/world/paris-protests-tear-gas/index.html

 

[IceAlisa]

Some of the "yellow vests" are protesting the money given to Notre Dame when there is nothing for "Les Miserables":

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/20/world/paris-protests-tear-gas/index.html

That didn’t take long.
1. This isn’t a zero sum game
2. People get to decide how to spend their money

 

[IceAlisa]

I'm reminded of a Christian who told me "Your people (the Jews) "deny" that Jesus Christ existed.

We do? News to me

 

[Tinami Amori]

She literally just said "I feel like folks are missing out".

I did not see becca's comment as such. But! even if she did mean it the way you are presenting it, it is not different and far more "soft", than the many lefties' comments on this FSU board which clearly state in most insular terms that those who voted for Trump are "insert a derogatory term".

You and few others who called themselves "progressives" while practicing the most anti-progressive responses such as using profanities and insults, have created a swayed micro-world, which imposes on others' right to express an opposing opinion.

Misskaren.... you called people "b..tch", "ass.. ole", and used many defamatory terms against those you don't agree with. On another board it "costed you". On this board you're tolerated because "majority leans with you". It does not make you much more right than "becca's comment" about some idiotic religious belief. You two are not different, your religion is "lefty madness" and hers is "religious madness"..... and she is more polite.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Some of the "yellow vests" are protesting the money given to Notre Dame when there is nothing for "Les Miserables":

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/20/world/paris-protests-tear-gas/index.html

The original group of people that constituted "yellow vests" movement, has been expanded and diluted from the, let's call it, "the original message and subjects of dissatisfaction". Some of them are people who failed so miserably in life, in spite of living in a western democratic country with one of the most expanded social programmes and laws, that their only solution is to monitor what others do and their money, instead of asking a question "what have i done, or not done".

If people earned their money within the law, and paid their taxes, what they do with those money, is THEIR BUSINESS.

Those who want to help "Les Miserables" have a great option: do something to make your own money to help the causes of your choice. That's how it works, you believe in helping a cause, you don't demand it from others. You start working more and more, save, created, develop..... and THEN give to those or "that" which you believe in. You believe in charity? it starts and ends with your effort and your contribution. The rest is "imposition and theft".

"Charity and compassion" rules! .... out of your own pocked and time.

 

[Peaches LaTour]

The University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana, has pledged $100,000.00 to help rebuild the cathedral.

 

[Japanfan]

I don’t look at it as I am some heroic person because i believe in God and someone else is bad because they don’t. I have experienced Gods presence in a very strong way. I can’t explain it but I know He is real.

Other people have not had that experience and maybe if they did they would believe. So I don’t judge people for not believing.

And you have not had the experiences of those who are not believers or question faith.

If you had had such an experience, maybe you would not be a believer. And would not judge believers.

Point being: you position yourself as superior due to your experiences, which you were privileged to have and made you a believer.

In positioning yourself as such, you do judge people, albeit unintenionally.

 

[hanca]

She literally just said "I feel like folks are missing out".

She may feel that people are missing out. What’s wrong with that? It is her opinion and she can have whatever opinion she wants to. As long as she doesn’t act on her opinion and force people into it, she can think they are missing out. What she thinks doesn’t hurt them, and if they don’t feel they are missing out, they should be happy. Why forcing her to change her opinion?

I feel my father is missing out by refusing to have a regular access to computer. My father disagrees. He doesn’t care for computers and is not interested. It doesn’t hurt him what I think, because I am not pushing him to accept my values. I didn’t give him computer for Christmas and I let him be without.