Fire in Notre Dame Cathedral

[skatingfan5]

Those big donations ... can benefit from big tax breaks (66% in France). Today, Pinault (Salma Hayek's husband) announced he was waving the tax breaks.

I hope he's waiving the tax breaks rather than waving them, which would be seen as very .

On a serious note, I would hope that the very rich who have pledged multimillions for the restoration also make contributions to humanitarian causes.

 

[AxelAnnie]

And, I bet these rich people are giving to lots of causes.

 

[MacMadame]

And, I bet these rich people are giving to lots of causes.

The data I've seen makes me skeptical about how much they give. Unfortunately.

 

[cocotaffy]

I hope he's waiving the tax breaks rather than waving them, which would be seen as very .

On a serious note, I would hope that the very rich who have pledged multimillions for the restoration also make contributions to humanitarian causes.

Yes of course, good catch

 

[becca]

I hope he's waiving the tax breaks rather than waving them, which would be seen as very .

On a serious note, I would hope that the very rich who have pledged multimillions for the restoration also make contributions to humanitarian causes.

I am sure many of them do. I may eventually donate and I donate to ch

The data I've seen makes me skeptical about how much they give. Unfortunately.

It is there money though they can give what they want and aren’t required to give any of it. They may feel enough of their taxes goes to the poor.

I may donate eventually to the Cathedral. This doesn’t mean I don’t think the poor should be taken care of. I donate regularly to the poor. And that is frankly where most of my Charity goes.

But I don’t think not rebuilding Notre Dame is going to stop poverty forever we will just lose a cultural icon. It would be drop in bucket.

I also think rebuilding can provide things like jobs and work which is what really can stop poverty.

I heard a speaker from Catholic Charities and he was talking about he was bribed to go to school with food. Really means to help lift folks out of poverty is what is needed. Education jobs is what needed.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Not only Notre Dame de Paris needs restoration. Several churches across France, during last few months, have been burned, destroyed and desecrate. Very few media outlets reporting it, Newsweek and several other have done so. The ones who have been caught, are the "usual suspects".
https://www.newsweek.com/spate-atta...-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

10 Catholic Churches attacked in 1 week.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaco...olic-churches-attacked-in-france-in-one-week/

Catholic churches in France vandalized, set on fire & smeared with excrement
https://www.rt.com/news/454472-arson-vandal-french-catholic-church/

The Rolling Stone Magazine is slammed for calling the "Burning of Notre Dame an act of liberation"
https://canadafreepress.com/article...te-that-called-notre-dame-fire-an-act-of-libe
https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...-dame-cathedral-paris-fire-whats-next-822743/

 

[IceAlisa]

Not religious at all but this is breaking my heart. It's such a part of our culture. I hope they can stop it as fast as possible but the fire is big according to French radio.

Neither French, nor Catholic but Notre Dame has always loomed large in the minds of most Europeans. I felt my heart squeeze as I watched the spire topple. But am heartened by the speed and abundance of the pledging of the funds for reconstruction.

 

[IceAlisa]

While I can appreciate the historical significance of Notre Dame, I don’t find it particularly beautiful as a building. Prefer Sacré-Cœur. #Philistine

I can understand that but the emotional connection to Notre Dame is undeniable. Like someone said upthread, such a gut punch

 

[MacMadame]

but the emotional connection to Notre Dame is undeniable.

Actually, emotional connections by definition are subjective and not the same for everyone.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Some sites, in good spirit, are playing/having with designs for new Notre Dame, and not all is funny..
https://varlamov.ru/3401506.html

... and some have lost their minds... starting a petition to turn it into a Mosque..
https://www.change.org/p/muslims-of-paris-turn-the-notre-dame-ruins-into-mosque

 

[MacMadame]

It is there money though they can give what they want and aren’t required to give any of it. They may feel enough of their taxes goes to the poor.

Did I say they couldn't give their money however they want? I must have missed me saying that.

But I don’t think not rebuilding Notre Dame is going to stop poverty forever we will just lose a cultural icon.

Again I never said that Notre Dame shouldn't be rebuilt.

All I said is that I doubt the billionaires donating to rebuilt Notre Dame are giving that same amount of money to help stop poverty as there is lots of data showing that they don't give as much money as a percentage of their income as working folk who make a lot less.

What I didn't say is that the Catholic Church has an obscene amount of money and it bothers me that ordinary folks are donating money while the Catholic Church has made no statement that they will donate and how much. Personally I think they should pay at least half the costs, maybe more!

 

[Vagabond]

All I said is that I doubt the billionaires donating to rebuilt Notre Dame are giving that same amount of money to help stop poverty as there is lots of data showing that they don't give as much money as a percentage of their income as working folk who make a lot less.

Perhaps the billionaires whom you should be criticizing are the ones who are not giving money either to stop poverty or to rebuild Motre Dame, not those who are giving money to at least one of those two causes.

 

[becca]

Did I say they couldn't give their money however they want? I must have missed me saying that.


Again I never said that Notre Dame shouldn't be rebuilt.

All I said is that I doubt the billionaires donating to rebuilt Notre Dame are giving that same amount of money to help stop poverty as there is lots of data showing that they don't give as much money as a percentage of their income as working folk who make a lot less.

What I didn't say is that the Catholic Church has an obscene amount of money and it bothers me that ordinary folks are donating money while the Catholic Church has made no statement that they will donate and how much. Personally I think they should pay at least half the costs, maybe more!

I doubt a lot of them don’t have foundations.
And personally wonder if those who are saying that people should donate to the poor instead are following up by giving something to the poor. We can all give something. If your not giving anything it is unfair to critize the billionaires for choosing cultural heritage.

And I personally think it’s a good thing if ordinary folks can raise the funds. It frees up the French government to take care of their obligations it also frees up my Church.

YEs the Catholic Church is corrupt. But we do probably run more charities than anyone in the world. As well as fund hospitals, schools etc. And there are other churches that need repairs. If Notre Dames popularity allows it to be rebuild through those funds it frees up those funds in the French State and the Church for other less popular causes.

I personally think it’s a lovely thing when people said look there are these historic black churches that need funds and folks donated to that instead. So if people want to set up a fund for the poor and homeless and encourage donations great! And donate themselves that’s cool.

But not donating anywhere and then talking about how others should donate. There are many good causes and good things and everyone should give where their hearts say to give.

 

[IceAlisa]

Actually, emotional connections by definition are subjective and not the same for everyone.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. I think it’s clear what type of connection I meant

 

[MacMadame]

Perhaps the billionaires whom you should be criticizing are the ones who are not giving money either to stop poverty or to rebuild Motre Dame, not those who are giving money to at least one of those two causes.

Not that I actually posted a criticism -- was just pointing out what the data shows -- but doesn't that depend quite a bit on what I think about Notre Dame and how people should spend their money.

 

[Vagabond]

The speaker at the dinner I went to yesterday evening said, "We take heritage for granted until we lose it."

 

[allezfred]

YEs the Catholic Church is corrupt. But we do probably run more charities than anyone in the world. As well as fund hospitals, schools etc.

It’s not charity if its purpose is indoctrination.

 

[MarieM]

It’s not charity if its purpose is indoctrination.

I love your opinion. That's exactly it.

 

[MacMadame]

I read an interesting article by someone in the Catholic Church that said, while they are rebuilding Notre Dame, they should rebuild the Catholic Church! As in deal with the corruption and rot.

That said, my experience with Catholic Charities is that they aren't as into indoctrination and missionary work as some other churches who see proselytizing as a primary mission.

 

[becca]

It’s not charity if its purpose is indoctrination.

That’s not true. Catholic Relief services and Caritas the serve all regardless of religion or lack of religion.

 

[allezfred]

That’s not true. Catholic Relief services and Caritas the serve all regardless of religion or lack of religion.

First of all, saying that people with no religion "lack" religion is offensive. Secondly. any group involved in education or welfare with a Catholic ethos is involved in indoctrination whether or not they provide services to non-Catholics. Grew up in a country dominated by the Catholic church so I know what I am talking about, becca.

 

[Japanfan]

First of all, saying that people with no religion "lack" religion is offensive.

I'm reminded of a Christian who told me "Your people (the Jews) "deny" that Jesus Christ existed.

 

[sk8pics]

I'm reminded of a Christian who told me "Your people (the Jews) "deny" that Jesus Christ existed.

People from all walks of life and all sides of every question can say stupid things!

 

[millyskate]

As a fellow Christian I feel hurt that this particular thread has been chosen to pick upon Catholicism.

Christians, just like all other people, get hurt when their identity is picked apart.

 

[becca]

First of all, saying that people with no religion "lack" religion is offensive. Secondly. any group involved in education or welfare with a Catholic ethos is involved in indoctrination whether or not they provide services to non-Catholics. Grew up in a country dominated by the Catholic church so I know what I am talking about, becca.

I wasn’t making a moral judgment by saying lack of one or saying someone is a bad person if they have no real religion. Lack no same thing. As for indoctrination that is not why help the poor at least not why I do out of some hope someone will convert. Things may be different in Catholic country.

I was partially raised by someone who is agnostic so I don’t judge others as bad because they have different beliefs.

 

[Japanfan]

I wasn’t making a moral judgment by saying lack of one or saying someone is a bad person if they have no real religion. Lack no same thing.

'Lack' infers that something is missing. Whereas people who may not believe in God or in a certain religion will still have their own belief systems. The belief system of an agnostic or athiest is no less valid that than the belief system of a believer.

Similarly, when I was told that 'my people denied the existence of Jesus Christ', there was an inference that we were wrong. We were 'denying' the truth. It's a very different thing to say that the Jews see Jesus Christ as a man, not as the son of God.

 

[cholla]

Unrelated to religion : the roof top of ND sacristy was the home for 3 beehives sheltering approx. 200,000 bees. The beehives haven't burnt and the bees are still there. Notre Dame staff will still be able to buy their annual 25 kg of honey.

Related to religion : Millyskate is a believer and a Catholic, I'm an atheist. Still, we always have been able to have very interesting and constructive discussions and debates on the subject. There was never the slightest hint of conflict in our debates because neither of us was ever judgmental nor aggressive. @becca, when you say that people "lack" religion, as an atheist I feel judged and belittled. So in return, I could have no qualm thinking that you belong to the sad kind of believers who are so brainwashed by their religion that they don't even realize how offensive they are towards people who don't share their faith. But I think that would be unfair. I don't have as a principle that people who don't think like me lack something. You're doing more damage than good to your own cause.

Things may be different in Catholic country.

No, they are not and you're just digging yourself a bigger hole

 

[cholla]

double post sorry

 

[becca]

Unrelated to religion : the roof top of ND sacristy was the home for 3 beehives sheltering approx. 200,000 bees. The beehives haven't burnt and the bees are still there. Notre Dame staff will still be able to buy their annual 25 kg of honey.

Related to religion : Millyskate is a believer and a Catholic, I'm an atheist. Still, we always have been able to have very interesting and constructive discussions and debates on the subject. There was never the slightest hint of conflict in our debates because neither of us was ever judgmental nor aggressive. @becca, when you say that people "lack" religion, as an atheist I feel judged and belittled. So in return, I could have no qualm thinking that you belong to the sad kind of believers who are so brainwashed by their religion that they don't even realize how offensive they are towards people who don't share their faith. But I think that would be unfair. I don't have as a principle that people who don't think like me lack something. You're doing more damage than good to your own cause.

No, they are not and you're just digging yourself a bigger hole

I didn’t mean to offend anyone when I said lack of religion to me lack of religion is the same as no religion. I feel though that you are reading into a phrase. Lack and no are the same thing. I won’t use that phrase but frankly I was trying to say I didn’t mean anything bad.

I have never once ever critized anyone or called someone bad for disagreeing with my world view. Not once.

I cannot say I have had the same treatment.

I am not fully sure what hole to dig out of because honestly people are making assumptions about me when they don’t know me. Those who know me know I don’t hold any Ill intent to those who see the world differently.

I was trying to kindly say my words lack of religion didn’t mean I felt someone was bad. But instead I get called brainwashed.

And once again I have never used personal insults here on this board for Anyome who disagreed.

As for being brainwashed just Because I see things differently doesn’t make me brainwashed the fact That I mentioned being raised by someone who practices no religion should indicate I have many influences.

I am sorry this is a message board and it is very easy to misinterpret people.

 

[becca]

'Lack' infers that something is missing. Whereas people who may not believe in God or in a certain religion will still have their own belief systems. The belief system of an agnostic or athiest is no less valid that than the belief system of a believer.

Similarly, when I was told that 'my people denied the existence of Jesus Christ', there was an inference that we were wrong. We were 'denying' the truth. It's a very different thing to say that the Jews see Jesus Christ as a man, not as the son of God.

I wont use the words lack again. However I must say this kindly. Is it terrible if people think one is wrong?

And thinking someone is wrong about someone doesn’t translate necessarily into judgement or this person is a bad person.

I am not offended if a Jewish person thinks we are wrong and denying the truth because we worship Jesus as God

Not at all. He either is or He isn’t. However my faith teaches that God holds people responsible for what they know and God is not necessarily going to condemn someone for believing differently. It is one of the reasons frankly I am Catholic and not Evangelical like I was raised.

Of course I frankly think people miss out when they don’t have a faith because in the hard times in my life that is what I turn to. But I don’t look at anyone as bad person. Not everyone grew up in a religion some had bad experiences. Etc.