Fire in Notre Dame Cathedral

[skatingguy]

I'm not sure that's possible. They said that one of the problems fighting the fire was that churches are wide, open spaces and that there was nothing that could contain it. It sounded like a church is a fire's dream: a lot of old wood and unobstructed access to oxygen.

I was referring more to the need for the renovations, which it is my understanding were put off for many years because it was difficult to secure the financing to complete them, and so by the time they'd started the job was much bigger. Money is, quite understandably, pouring in now - almost half a billion dollars so far has been pledged so far from around the world - and maybe we can look at other historic sites that are in need of repair and do what is required before something like this happens.

 

[skatesindreams]

I grew up in a town with an incredible cathedral, similar in size and style to Notre Dame and even a bit older.
It's completely underrated for no reason - it honestly has to be the most amazing unknown French monument by a long way. https://www.ouest-france.fr/pays-de...renaissent-pour-lete-apercu-en-images-4344213
It's a massive presence just there in the old town, so enormous and solid you can't imagine anything destroying it. Nothing like any contemporary architecture. All the reinforcements around the side, everything is built so cleverly to make it stay solid and stay up.

We used to visit it all the time with school, and at the time I was sick of having to learn by heart which bits had been built by which people at different centuries, but it is actually so interesting. It was started in the 12th century when the top of the vaults are rounded (roman architecture) and as centuries progress the detailing becomes more gothic, and then they had the unique triple flying buttresses all around. The painting style of the pillars would change based on the period too, and you could see the signature of each workman engraved in every single stone.

When I visited Notre Dame, a lot of what I had been told about my local cathedral applied too. It's completely incredible that all over France, several of these enormous cathedrals were being built simultaneous for centuries.

Thank you for sharing, millyskate.

 

[becca]

I was referring more to the need for the renovations, which it is my understanding were put off for many years because it was difficult to secure the financing to complete them, and so by the time they'd started the job was much bigger. Money is, quite understandably, pouring in now - almost half a billion dollars so far has been pledged so far from around the world - and maybe we can look at other historic sites that are in need of repair and do what is required before something like this happens.

Yes they were saying it needed lots of repairs and they were having trouble getting the funds something like this can remind folks.

A place of beauty and we all need beauty in our lives.

 

[cholla]

Estimates that it could take decades to restore the cathedral means a lot of people in the 60s and 70s may not live to see it completely restored.

I'll turn sixty in a few months
---->

It will take decades to rebuild this. I'm old enough that I will never see Notre Dame de Paris up and whole again

 

[skatesindreams]

I doubt that, with the advances in knowledge and techniques required; the restoration will need over two hundred years to complete.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I doubt that, with the advances in knowledge and techniques required; the restoration will need over two hundred years to complete.

One would hope.

The wood frame, made from oak won't be replaced. In this day and age, I can't imagine anyone would be ok with the felling of some 13,000 trees.

Wood Frame - CNN

The cathedral's wooden frame, which primarily consisted of oak, contains beams that date as far back as the first frame built for the cathedral. That frame featured trees cut down between 1160 and 1170, forming one of the oldest parts of the structure.


To kick off the project, workers cleared 21 hectares of oak. Each beam of the intricate wooden cross-work was drawn from a different tree: estimated at 13,000 trees in total. To reach the heights the carpenters needed to build the structure, those trees would likely have been 300 or 400 years old, meaning they would have sprouted out of the ground in the eighth or ninth centuries.

 

[SHARPIE]

Ok, I know my views aren’t usually leftie, but I feel like one when I’m seeing all these billionaires donating mega bucks to the restoration when there’s so much poverty and hunger in the world.

Yes the Notre Dame is iconic, was very beautiful and it was so sad seeing it burning but.

 

[becca]

Ok, I know my views aren’t usually leftie, but I feel like one when I’m seeing all these billionaires donating mega bucks to the restoration when there’s so much poverty and hunger in the world.

Yes the Notre Dame is iconic, was very beautiful and it was so sad seeing it burning but.

To quote Christ The hungry in the world will always exist. This does not mean we should not give to the poor but I think we can do both. It is not either or.

 

[skatfan]

Ok, I know my views aren’t usually leftie, but I feel like one when I’m seeing all these billionaires donating mega bucks to the restoration when there’s so much poverty and hunger in the world.

Yes the Notre Dame is iconic, was very beautiful and it was so sad seeing it burning but.

I decided to put my small $ toward the GoFundMe campaign for the three historically black churches in the US South that were torched by a racist:

https://www.gofundme.com/church-fir...FFYFnTRpjo6IJ_1xswDGkc5WCuBSRYnYkXwPw3pnnPzKw

 

[Frau Muller]

I doubt that, with the advances in knowledge and techniques required; the restoration will need over two hundred years to complete.

Unless they go “moderne”...build a 21st-c Cathedral, somehow incorporating the old facade and a few flying buttresses. This is France...it will be very modern and very PC Socialistic, wait and see. The Catholic Church doesn’t own the land.

 

[skatfan]

I just heard a live report from Paris that there is fear that the North transept, which is unstable, might collapse. They have evacuated a number of residential buildings nearby as a precaution

I imagine the stone and mortar of some of the walls is pretty fragile - they weaken with heat. Just because they are standing today unfortunately doesn't mean that they will be ok. I wonder if they'll use drones to look at the damage up high - it's been used here in California following earthquakes.

 

[skatesindreams]

Yes the Notre Dame is iconic, was very beautiful and it was so sad seeing it burning but.

Much better this; than some of the projects they usually support.
More than a cultural icon for the world; remember that Notre Dame is a house of worship for thousands of people.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Unless they go “moderne”...build a 21st-c Cathedral, somehow incorporating the old facade and a few flying buttresses. This is France...it will be very modern and very PC Socialistic, wait and see. The Catholic Church doesn’t own the land.

I would not be surprised if some sections, like the dome is restored in glass or with modern segments. It has been done in Berlin... although, the "cause and symbolism" are different.

http://photoexplore.gr/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/DSC_2917.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CXH2BW/re...n-parliament-berlin-germany-europe-CXH2BW.jpg

There are many interesting modern/glass renovations taking place with old ruins and deteriorated ancient buildings.
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/bc/c1/d5/bcc1d540fa28f4cf996746de2098ea92.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/21/80/b7/...-amazing-architecture-architecture-design.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/7a/53/08/7a5308b9d4766b1a238720cbcc9333c1.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/ae/ae/9d/aeae9df54be5888926ec2e9aa4b24a98.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/66/c3/ed/66c3ed5f40abbb1275c581a9d9c1f4e4.jpg

 

[ilovepaydays]

Unless they go “moderne”...build a 21st-c Cathedral, somehow incorporating the old facade and a few flying buttresses. This is France...it will be very modern and very PC Socialistic, wait and see. The Catholic Church doesn’t own the land.

WAIT. I always thought that in the Catholic Church, the respective diocese owns all the parishes’ buildings, sacraments, and property.

My apologies if I’m wrong or ignorant about this - I’m Protestant (Presbyterian) and our congregations usually own their own church property. I’m aware that it is very different in other denominations as well as the Catholic Church.

 

[cholla]

I’m aware that it is very different in other denominations as well as the Catholic Church.

Notre Dame de Paris, like many other historical buildings, belongs to the State

 

[ilovepaydays]

Notre Dame de Paris, like many other historical buildings, belongs to the State

Thanks for the clarification - so Notre Dame isn’t legally like a typical Catholic parish and privately owned by the church.

 

[TOADS]

I imagine the stone and mortar of some of the walls is pretty fragile - they weaken with heat. Just because they are standing today unfortunately doesn't mean that they will be ok. I wonder if they'll use drones to look at the damage up high - it's been used here in California following earthquakes.

They very well might take the weakened stone structure down piece by piece and reassemble it with new mortar and bracing.

It has been done before.. the old London bridge was disassembled block by block, shipped to Arizona and reassembled block by block.

 

[becca]

WAIT. I always thought that in the Catholic Church, the respective diocese owns all the parishes’ buildings, sacraments, and property.

My apologies if I’m wrong or ignorant about this - I’m Protestant (Presbyterian) and our congregations usually own their own church property. I’m aware that it is very different in other denominations as well as the Catholic Church.

When we are talking about historical and cultural treasures things get different.

Even with some of the Catholic Church’s artwork it not so simple as to say they can just sell things. The Italian government would certainly have something to say if the Catholic Church decided to sell the Pieta. The French people built those cathedrals.

 

[Icedream]

You can visit the cathedral attic as it was before the fire in this video (in French)

https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/vide...e-de-paris-avant-l-incendie_5451135_3224.html

 

[skatfan]

When we are talking about historical and cultural treasures things get different.

Even with some of the Catholic Church’s artwork it not so simple as to say they can just sell things. The Italian government would certainly have something to say if the Catholic Church decided to sell the Pieta. The French people built those cathedrals.

I think the church's response would be something like, "Catholics built those cathedrals."

That said, I imagine this is going to be very complicated. The church owns the land and property, I wonder though if France has some designation about historical buildings as we do in the US. One article I saw said that many of the priceless relics will be stored at the Louvre for the time being.

For example, in my own state, the church I serve had to rush to tear down a decrepit gymnasium before it got old enough to qualify as a historical structure and have a ton of restrictions placed on what the church could do about the building.

 

[BittyBug]

I'm thinking of the people who started building this cathedral more than 850 years ago. It took almost two centuries to build it. Several generations of those who worked to create this masterpiece knew they would never see it finished. In a time when we want everything to be at our disposal asap if not immediately, it is rather sobering...

I read a similar reflection followed by this comment: "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

 

[Nmsis]

Thanks for the clarification - so Notre Dame isn’t legally like a typical Catholic parish and privately owned by the church.

Notre Dame is a typical Catholic french parish or a typical religious french building.
The building is owned by the State and has been since the Confiscation of the goods of the clergy during the French Revolution in 1789, when religious buildings and properties were used as a backing for a new paper money named "assignat", many of them being sold, destroyed for their stones or used as libraries or warehouses (like Notre Dame for 9 years), until Napoleon more or less pacified the situation for 80 years.

Any church, temple, synagogue built prior to 1905, the year of the french law on the Separation of the Churches and the State, belongs to the State who owns the walls, the paintings, the religious objects ... which have been "entrusted" to religious societies since 1905.

 

[rfisher]

WAIT. I always thought that in the Catholic Church, the respective diocese owns all the parishes’ buildings, sacraments, and property.

My apologies if I’m wrong or ignorant about this - I’m Protestant (Presbyterian) and our congregations usually own their own church property. I’m aware that it is very different in other denominations as well as the Catholic Church.

Catholic property in France has switched back and forth between ownership by Rome and the state. After the French Revolution, it was seized by the state. Napolean gave it back when he seized the French throne. Then the State took it back in the early 20th century when there was complete separation of church and state. It's still a "working" church with daily masses.

 

[skatfan]

Notre Dame is a typical Catholic french parish or a typical religious french building.
The building is owned by the State and has been since the Confiscation of the goods of the clergy during the French Revolution in 1789, when religious buildings and properties were used as a backing for a new paper money named "assignat", many of them being sold, destroyed for their stones or used as libraries or warehouses (like Notre Dame for 9 years), until Napoleon more or less pacified the situation for 80 years.

Any church, temple, synagogue built prior to 1905, the year of the french law on the Separation of the Churches and the State, belongs to the State who owns the walls, the paintings, the religious objects ... which have been "entrusted" to religious societies since 1905.

Thanks for this information - so interesting! No wonder the government has been talking about the rebuilding process.

 

[victorskid]

Emmanuel Macron has announced that he wishes to see Notre Dame rebuilt in 5 years! Have faith @cholla

 

[VenusH.]

I'm not sure that's possible. They said that one of the problems fighting the fire was that churches are wide, open spaces and that there was nothing that could contain it. It sounded like a church is a fire's dream: a lot of old wood and unobstructed access to oxygen.

On FB yesterday somebody mentioned that there is some sort of "paint" that can is used for historical buildings, that makes them less flammable. Not sure how realistic that is.

(especially since the wooden part of historical buildings often suffer that problems... dry rot and such... and the impregnation materials to prevent those are often flammable.

But I hope there is more research devoted in preserving historical buildings after this).

It is devastating, but it is a miracle in a way lots of the structure held. Hopefully they can restore it.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Notre Dame is a typical Catholic french parish or a typical religious french building.
The building is owned by the State and has been since the Confiscation of the goods of the clergy during the French Revolution in 1789, when religious buildings and properties were used as a backing for a new paper money named "assignat", many of them being sold, destroyed for their stones or used as libraries or warehouses (like Notre Dame for 9 years), until Napoleon more or less pacified the situation for 80 years.

Any church, temple, synagogue built prior to 1905, the year of the french law on the Separation of the Churches and the State, belongs to the State who owns the walls, the paintings, the religious objects ... which have been "entrusted" to religious societies since 1905.

Catholic property in France has switched back and forth between ownership by Rome and the state. After the French Revolution, it was seized by the state. Napolean gave it back when he seized the French throne. Then the State took it back in the early 20th century when there was complete separation of church and state. It's still a "working" church with daily masses.

Thanks for the information. I guess I was mixed up because of how church property and state is managed in the U.S.

I believe the only thing we have that’s remotely close to a cathedral like Notre Dame is Washington National Cathedral in DC and it’s 100% privately owned and operated by the Episcopal Diocese of Washington. I’m pretty sure that even includes state funerals that happen there.

 

[rfisher]

Catholicism has been intimately tied into French history. The relationship of religion to the US it totally different.

 

[misskarne]

One would hope.

The wood frame, made from oak won't be replaced. In this day and age, I can't imagine anyone would be ok with the felling of some 13,000 trees.

Wood Frame - CNN

Actually, it will be. There is a whole plantation of trees that were planted exactly for this purpose.

Here's a fascinating twitter thread that explains a lot.

With that said...like Sharpie, I'm turning my nose up a bit at all the millionaires suddenly offering money. I'm furious that our government - in caretaker mode because of the election - is talking about some kind of donation. How about we make that corrupt corporation the Catholic Church open it's overfilled coffers instead?

 

[attyfan]

A lot depends upon the current use of the property. For example, some California missions are still working churches; others are not. This impacts the way the mission is owned and operated.