New Ladies Quads and Orser-exit, news during May-day holidays.

[bardtoob]

How come that Daleman was sick for so long and it was so evident from her Instagram for anyone and the coaches did not notice?

How do you know it was unnoticed?

Do you expect the coach to clinically treat the skater and post the records online?

Generally, this is a private matter and not within the expertise of a figure skating coach.

How come that Gold struggled for so long with her coach and officials not noticing...?

They did notice. The coach had no power to force her into treatment. The most he could do was reveal it publicly, which made him look bad. I am still confused where her parents were as she was deteriorating.

Whether you get an injury or developed an anorexia nervosa - it's your own responsibility.

Yes, and you should not do something if the risk or cost for the individual is prohibitively expensive ... And the government does not pretend you are in the army so you can get paid to skate all day.

 

[Japanfan]

Depending on whom you call the North American coaches... There was an interview of Victoria Sinitsina, who was trained by Marina Zoueva, in which she discussed how she got almost neurotic about her weight, thanks to Marina's encouragements to loose her weight. [/QUOTE]

I think of North American coaches as born in North America or been here for a very long time (i.e. came in infancy or early childhood).

That is what I meant, although obviously Zoueva is a North American coach, given that she lives in North America and probably has citizenship there.

Gracie Gold revealed in one of her interviews that it was her coach who once told her to loose the weight and then she started googling on how to loose calories... So I'm not sure what you mean when you're saying that North American coaches are not known for encouraging skaters to take control over the athletes' weight... You just take it for granted that they don't do that instead of asking questions...

Please read what I said: "Not known for encouraging skaters to go on powder diets or limit water intake". SFAIK, that is true. I DID NOT say: "not known for encouraging skaters to take control of their weight".

And I also said: "Also, there may be some coaches who prefer their skaters to be at a weight that is lower than ideal for optimal health if the skaters jump better at that weight - or better fit the aesthetic ideal".

That comment referred to the present tense. I know there have been skaters pressured to lose weight in the past, one of whom was Gracie.

But Daleman, instead, have been struggling publicly for long time and so did Gold. What exactly do you mean then that the people are hiding it?

Both suffered silently for a long time.

People hide eating disorders all the time. Very often they don't want to alarm friends and family. So, they will eat at mealtimes to look 'normal', then go throw up.

People don't usually say "Excuse me, I'm going to throw up all the food I just ate. Back in a minute!"

How come that posters are blaming Alina for talking publicly about her diet when the problem of Daleman is as obvious as a pink elephant in the middle of the room?

I haven't seen anyone blaming Alina.

 

[Finsta]

Seems many posting to defend Russia use weak arguments and want to just keep the nonsense going. The coaches in America aren’t now parents to the skaters. What I notice is the parent has responsibilities and acts as control. Seems in Russia coach has that very role. Look how eteri was with Medvedeva. And Alina. Alina’s own grandmother injured her and eteri had to control the situation. Seems maybe cultural differences. So why keeping this going is not making sense

 

[_Lola_]

Seems many posting to defend Russia use weak arguments and want to just keep the nonsense going. The coaches in America aren’t now parents to the skaters. What I notice is the parent has responsibilities and acts as control. Seems in Russia coach has that very role. Look how eteri was with Medvedeva. And Alina. Alina’s own grandmother injured her and eteri had to control the situation. Seems maybe cultural differences. So why keeping this going is not making sense

Of cause, coaches aren't parents to the skaters. Many skaters live separately from their parents and see them rarely, whereas coaches see them every day and work close with them. Since the problems that we are discussing here are related to the profession of elite athlete, and coaches are part of that professional circle, I don't see a reason to exclude coaches. Moreover, if Eteri is included in that circle of blame, why wouldn't Orser, Barkell and Caroll be blamed for the culture of indifference and ignorance that exists in the North American figure skating and leads to mental illnesses of young women?

 

[_Lola_]

Generally, this is a private matter and not within the expertise of a figure skating coach.

Of cause, it's so much easier to keep blaming these young women who are obviously experts in eating disorders... It's just really mesmerizing how pro and contra arguments are being flipped 180 degrees depending on wether the posters talk about practices of North America vis-a-vis Russia... Stunning!

 

[mackiecat]

Actually TCSC has in fact sent foreign skaters home to recover when it comes apparent that their eating disorder was out of control. A couple years ago, a skater they sent home to heal instead went to another skating centre in the US to train. A coach/ club can only do so much.

 

[Finsta]

Of cause, coaches aren't parents to the skaters. Many skaters live separately from their parents and see them rarely, whereas coaches see them every day and work close with them. Since the problems that we are discussing here are related to the profession of elite athlete, and coaches are part of that professional circle, I don't see a reason to exclude coaches. Moreover, if Eteri is included in that circle of blame, why wouldn't Orser, Barkell and Caroll be blamed for the culture of indifference and ignorance that exists in the North American figure skating and leads to mental illnesses of young women?

I don’t think Carroll or Orser are as close to their skaters as eteri. Again, you are arguing just to hear yourself argue and drag this on. Better to just admit your arguments is weak and move on to the next debate

 

[bardtoob]

For what it is worth, I think American coaches take as much flack as Eteri. For example, I think fat a$$ Evy Scotvold was overly fixated on weight and gave Nancy an eating disorder while also openly gossiping about how fat Tonya's a$$ had gotten as a form of politiking.

They did notice. The coach had no power to force her into treatment. The most he could do was reveal it publicly, which made him look bad.

Of cause, it's so much easier to keep blaming these young women who are obviously experts in eating disorders... It's just really mesmerizing how pro and contra arguments are being flipped 180 degrees depending on wether the posters talk about practices of North America vis-a-vis Russia... Stunning!

Do you ever read other people's posts or do you just talk at people? Clearly you have not read mine.

 

[bardtoob]

There are some deep legal and cultural misunderstandings in this thread.

Coaches in North America are not managers of employee-skaters.

Coaches in North America are not commanding officers.

Coaches in North America are not surrogate parents.

Coaches in North America have virtually no legal authority over a skater except to the extent that the skater is in a business contract with the coach.

 

[LoopCombo]

You seem to have some vendetta against Orser.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that I don’t read @Tinami Amori as having some vendetta against Orser so much as Tinami is presenting facts and circumstances of Orser’s coaching season in a similar or parallel way to that in which many posters have presented facts and circumstances of Eteri’s various coaching seasons: cherry-pick the negatives, minimize the positives, and blame the coach and national federation for everything that goes wrong with the athletes or performances. I really like Brian Orser. I also take Tinami’s rhetorical point: if it is ludicrous/willful misunderstanding to blame Orser and/or the Canadian skating fed for Hanyu’s injury, the loss of Gabby and her coach, Gabby’s personal struggles, the loss of Gogolev, etc., why does it make good sense to blame Eteri for the loss of Medvedeva and several other skaters, or even skaters’ injuries and eating disorders? I don’t want to minimize or discount injuries and conflicts and heartbreak that happen for the figure skaters we all love. But it is confusing to me that when these issues happen at the rink of Eteri it is ‘because she is abusive and neglectful,’ but when they happen at Orser’s rink, dear old Orser was just doing his best. Let me suggest that perhaps Eteri and her staff also genuinely care about their skaters and are doing their best. Russia is in an interesting situation: because they put so much funding into figure skating, they have almost an excess of incredible talent. And it breaks the skating fan heart in me that there are only 3 international spots for all these amazing ladies (I feel similarly about the Japanese ladies). But we don’t really know whether Canada or the US would deal with a problem of too much talent any better than Russia does, because Canada and the US do not put the funding and recruiting energy into young figure skaters on such a large scale, and therefore there is a smaller talent pool in North America and so the stars that do come along are literally not a dime a dozen, and are highly prized. I think in Russia the stars are highly prized too, but it is just so insanely competitive. It is a different dynamic. Perhaps in Russia, ladies skaters realize that their career may not be that long. And that is indeed a loss. Many of the skaters keep fighting anyway, and some succeed! This phenomenon happens in the US too (I can’t speak for Canada because I live in the US): many young US skaters never make it to fame and fortune and long careers, and certainly not to the Olympics. But we don’t hear about them as much, because many of those who don’t make it in the US weren’t as competitive on an international scale as the Russian novices and juniors with their quads and difficult transitions and artistic poise. I think what irritates some Russian skating fans, and indeed irritates me and I am not Russian, is the uncritical bias in rants about Eteri and her ‘methods’ (and Tinami’s and others’ recent posts are a challenge to these) that there is something uniquely abusive or corrupt about Russia. Comparisons truly are odious: what is the goal in trying to prove ad nauseam that North American figure skating coaches are better people working under a better system than Russian coaches? One of the wonderful things that I have always loved about figure skating is the international aspect of the sport, the diversity of styles and programs and skaters, and the friendships that form between skaters from different countries. I hope that fans can enjoy figure skating in that same open-minded spirit.

 

[bardtoob]

Perhaps in Russia, ladies skaters realize that their career may not be that long.

What if they don't realize it?

 

[Gris]

The weight control issue is, unfortunately, quite prevalent in figure skating world - IIRC Rippon talked about this last year as well. I don't think Eteri's method is acceptable or healthy in long-term yet let's not pretend that she's the first, or the only coach who does that.

I think the reasons why Eteri and her team seem to get all the blame are 1) they are the most vocal ones on this topic; 2) most of her skaters are minors and 3) those skinny girls in her team again reinforce this impression.

I think what irritates some Russian skating fans, and indeed irritates me and I am not Russian, is the uncritical bias in rants about Eteri and her ‘methods’ (and Tinami’s and others’ recent posts are a challenge to these) that there is something uniquely abusive or corrupt about Russia.

I agree. I very much disagree about Eteri's method in weight control but it's nothing 'unique'.

 

[Janbo]

Bicker bicker bicker. The language of off season boredom.

 

[Wyliefan]

The weight control issue is, unfortunately, quite prevalent in figure skating world - IIRC Rippon talked about this last year as well. I don't think Eteri's method is acceptable or healthy in long-term yet let's not pretend that she's the first, or the only coach who does that.

I think the reasons why Eteri and her team seem to get all the blame are 1) they are the most vocal ones on this topic; 2) most of her skaters are minors and 3) those skinny girls in her team again reinforce this impression.

The main reason is that, when you read Eteri's own words, she appears to be all in favor of damaging weight-loss methods. Other coaches, at the very least, pay lip service to the importance of skaters putting their health first and getting enough to eat (and some coaches actually follow through and hire nutritionists, encourage anorexic skaters to seek help, etc.). Eteri, to the best of our knowledge, does not. That's really all there is to it.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Other coaches, at the very least, pay lip service to the importance of skaters putting their health first

Oh, please.... the whole world knows what hypocrites with double standards many Americans are.. you don't need to confirm it...

 

[Japanfan]

Oh, please.... the whole world knows what hypocrites with double standards many Americans are.. you don't need to confirm it...

I don't think anyone here denies that ED are a problem in the US/Canada or denies that coaches can basically support skaters in maintaining an ED/disordered eating or be abusive in many ways. Larry Nassar was American and there have been plenty of stories about coaching misconduct in the US/Canada - the Coughlin thread being just one example.

The main reason is that, when you read Eteri's own words, she appears to be all in favor of damaging weight-loss methods. Other coaches, at the very least, pay lip service to the importance of skaters putting their health first and getting enough to eat (and some coaches actually follow through and hire nutritionists, encourage anorexic skaters to seek help, etc.). Eteri, to the best of our knowledge, does not. That's really all there is to it.

This.

In general, my impression is that eating disorders/disordered eating are encouraged or at least overlooked in Russia, perhaps elsewhere. Med talked about having to learn to eat since coming to Orser in a recent interview, and in that interview she also talked about 'skating dry', which is really disturbing to me.

The recent disclosures of EDs and mental health by Daleman and Gold have prompted a conversation about those issues. It's not a magic cure and won't stop lots of skaters and other young women from developing EDs, or stop some coaches from basically supporting them in that. But awareness is a step in the right direction and somewhat counters stigmatization. Those who suffer from EDs may be more willing to reach out for help than they once would have been, and people may be better able to recognize EDs in friends and family members.

When Lipnitskaya was hospitalized and treated for anorexia, did it prompt a conversation about EDs in Russia? Are any skaters in Russia currently talking about seeking help for EDs and mental health issues?

If so, myself and others here would certainly be glad to learn of it and acknowledge it.

 

[Finsta]

Oh, please.... the whole world knows what hypocrites with double standards many Americans are.. you don't need to confirm it...

The world? I’m at university and Americans have been good to me. You might think you speak for Russia, but Russia is not the world.

 

[Tinami Amori]

The recent disclosures of EDs and mental health by Daleman and Gold have prompted a conversation about those issues.

Oh, yes! "promote" and then pet yourself on the head that you did your civil duty...

In spite of all "the promotion" and "lip service" Daleman is still posting fotos of her body, grossly deformed by photoshop apps. The promotion and lip service did not work on her..

She obviously wants her waistline now and today ....

Gabrielle Daleman on Instagram: “Healthier, fitter, stronger, and most importantly Happier 🖤 Levelled Up!!! XX!!”

6,678 Likes, 44 Comments - Gabrielle Daleman (@gabby_daleman) on Instagram: “Healthier, fitter, stronger, and most importantly Happier 🖤 Levelled Up!!! XX!!”

www.instagram.com

Gabrielle Daleman on Instagram: “Leveling up 🔥”

440 Likes, 18 Comments - Gabrielle Daleman (@gabrielledfitness) on Instagram: “Leveling up 🔥”

www.instagram.com

Gabrielle Daleman on Instagram: “Love going to the gym and the best part is wearing my @bodyengineers set and having my @jabra headphones 🏋🏻‍♀️”

2,989 Likes, 30 Comments - Gabrielle Daleman (@gabby_daleman) on Instagram: “Love going to the gym and the best part is wearing my @bodyengineers set and having my @jabra…”

www.instagram.com

.... to be like when she was 7... and it's been going on for several years, at TCC and now in a new place.

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.... and to hide her real size, which is 2-sizes bigger than what's on photos, she covers her torso with over-seized shirts..

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... Alert to moral police, something is brewing between the two 16-year olds at TCC while Chief Orser is away, Miss Kurakova (of Poland) and Mr. Binzari (of Moldavia)... and that's what's only in the official IG posts.....

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.... and while Orser is hopping around China, posing for photos, and training Chinese team (and some of his non-Canadian skaters).....
.... Canadian Senior singles on the Canada Team this year are aiming at best to make the top 10, with no prospects for medals at the int'l high level competitions....
.... and if by chance Medvedeva medals, the ISU credits will go to Russia...
.... and the only actual medal hope (in Jr.) Stepan Gogolev moved to USA to train with a "russian" coach...

Well done Canada FS and fans... keep watching "evil Russians" while neglecting to take care of your own business...

 

[AxelAnnie]

Oh, yes! "promote" and then pet yourself on the head that you did your civil duty...

In spite of all "the promotion" and "lip service" Daleman is still posting fotos of her body, grossly deformed by photoshop apps. The promotion and lip service did not work on her..

.... and to hide her real size, which is 2-sizes bigger than what's on photos, she covers her torso with over-seized shirts..
..

OK, those pictures are terrifying. Are they some kind of joke? Did Gabby really post them.
And if she did, the fact that she is posting ANYTHING about her body is twisted. I can't imagine it supports her mental health in any way.

I read through her Wikipedia page. That girl has had so many illnesses and injuries, and illnesses...........I am amazed she can put one foot in front of the other.

 

[Tinami Amori]

OK, those pictures are terrifying. Are they some kind of joke? Did Gabby really post them.
And if she did, the fact that she is posting ANYTHING about her body is twisted. I can't imagine it supports her mental health in any way.

It's directly off her own social media, personal and "official site" about "her fitness"...

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I read through her Wikipedia page. That girl has had so many illnesses and injuries, and illnesses...........I am amazed she can put one foot in front of the other.

Wiki must be lying... after all Daleman trained at TCC, under Orser's supervision, in Canada....

 

[Finsta]

I wonder if some posters in this board have employment or life’s. Spending all day on gossip boards and hating on skaters is not healthy

 

[Japanfan]

Oh, yes! "promote" and then pet yourself on the head that you did your civil duty...

In spite of all "the promotion" and "lip service" Daleman is still posting fotos of her body, grossly deformed by photoshop apps. The promotion and lip service did not work on her..

She obviously wants her waistline now and today ....

Gabrielle Daleman on Instagram: “Healthier, fitter, stronger, and most importantly Happier 🖤 Levelled Up!!! XX!!”

6,678 Likes, 44 Comments - Gabrielle Daleman (@gabby_daleman) on Instagram: “Healthier, fitter, stronger, and most importantly Happier 🖤 Levelled Up!!! XX!!”

www.instagram.com

Gabrielle Daleman on Instagram: “Leveling up 🔥”

440 Likes, 18 Comments - Gabrielle Daleman (@gabrielledfitness) on Instagram: “Leveling up 🔥”

www.instagram.com

Gabrielle Daleman on Instagram: “Love going to the gym and the best part is wearing my @bodyengineers set and having my @jabra headphones 🏋🏻‍♀️”

2,989 Likes, 30 Comments - Gabrielle Daleman (@gabby_daleman) on Instagram: “Love going to the gym and the best part is wearing my @bodyengineers set and having my @jabra…”

www.instagram.com

I agree that those fotos are very, very disturbing.

But, that does not mean that there isn't a conversation about EDs in Figure Skating/sport. If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I recognize the conversation won't stop EDs from occurring/recurring, but think it is an important step in the right direction.

My question to you was whether Lipnitsaya's ED and subsequent hospitalization (or other such cases) prompted a similar conversation in Russia. I'd appreciate an answer.

 

[Tinami Amori]

But, that does not mean that there isn't a conversation about EDs in Figure Skating/sport. If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I recognize the conversation won't stop EDs from occurring/recurring, but think it is an important step in the right direction.

My question to you was whether Lipnitsaya's ED and subsequent hospitalization (or other such cases) prompted a similar conversation in Russia. I'd appreciate an answer.

Many countries do hold discussions about ED, in the age of internet a lot is posted on line, in all languages, English, Russian, German, etc..

The conversations, as you said, won't stop ED from occurring/recurring. And it is not an issue just for people in sports.

The issue with Daleman is not ED, she is now in a healthy shape, so it seems. There is an issue in her mind, and it's been there for over a year or longer. Her coaching staff was present with her that whole year and longer. She still has an issue.

Maria Butyrskaya in her last interview (which i translated few months back) said something like when she sees her students uncomfortable with their weight, she takes the girl into her house for a week, puts her on "Maria's diet" and in a week the girls returns with 5 kg less weight.

Maybe North Am. style of training is too "liberal" for the technical requirements in skating today and the weight the girls need to keep to match the content. Maybe Butyrskaya's method would work for Daleman. 1 week of suffering, 10 lbs gone, the girl looks in the mirror, confidence returns, she feels happy and energetic, and no need to "thin yourself out" in the IG apps.....

Talk is cheap, and "liberal methods" of training for high-pressure sports are over-rated and often don't work..

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Gabrielle was very happy to have Evgenia there, by all accounts.

Stephen, as Orser himself admitted, was a case where he just didn't have enough time, and he was disappointed. So his parents found a different coach; nobody cares what country he trains in.


That isn't how it works, as has already been explained. Orser doesn't "represent Canada"; he's a coach at a Canadian club, and most of his students (and especially his most prominent students) have always been non-Canadian.

I'm not sure what you think Hanyu's injury has to do with Orser's other projects. He seriously injured himself and still won silver at Worlds.

Actually, if Barkell's students all leave with him, I'm not sure how many Canadians would even still be at the TCC -- Joseph Phan (who Brian coaches) and the junior dance team D'Alessandro/Waddell (obviously Brian doesn't have anything to do with them) and the only ones that spring to mind.

Saw a picture of Alessandro and Waddell in Montreal... don't remember where I saw it??? Nathalie was mostly trained by Barkell

 

[mackiecat]

Saw a picture of Alessandro and Waddell in Montreal... don't remember where I saw it??? Nathalie was mostly trained by Barkell

They usually get their programs choreography in Montreal

 

[Colonel Green]

Saw a picture of Alessandro and Waddell in Montreal... don't remember where I saw it??? Nathalie was mostly trained by Barkell

Haguenauer does their choreography — honestly, the stuff he comes up with for them is quite often better than what Gadbois’ own junior teams get.

 

[Japanfan]

The issue with Daleman is not ED, she is now in a healthy shape, so it seems. There is an issue in her mind, and it's been there for over a year or longer. Her coaching staff was present with her that whole year and longer. She still has an issue.

Maria Butyrskaya in her last interview (which i translated few months back) said something like when she sees her students uncomfortable with their weight, she takes the girl into her house for a week, puts her on "Maria's diet" and in a week the girls returns with 5 kg less weight.

Maybe North Am. style of training is too "liberal" for the technical requirements in skating today and the weight the girls need to keep to match the content. Maybe Butyrskaya's method would work for Daleman. 1 week of suffering, 10 lbs gone, the girl looks in the mirror, confidence returns, she feels happy and energetic, and no need to "thin yourself out" in the IG apps.....

You're suggesting Daleman actually get as thin as she is in the photoshopped pictures? I doubt she'd be feeling really good if she got that thin.

Talk is cheap, and "liberal methods" of training for high-pressure sports are over-rated and often don't work..

It depends on how you define 'work'. The Soviet/Chinese method(s) may arguably be better at producing champions, but those method(s) wouldn't fly in countries that have a different understanding of how to cultivate athletes. At least not in their entirety - SFAIK the method(s) have some strengths that could be broadly applied.

And if you include the US among those countries which have liberal methods of training, well, that country has done quite well in FS. It hasn't known the dominance that Russia has known, but nor has it aspired to. FS is not that important in the US, where people care much more about football.

 

[CarolineBingley]

I just want to say Gabby Daleman's got the best eye makeup game in all of figure skating - ever. And I hope she is taking care of herself.

 

[_Lola_]

Talk is cheap, and "liberal methods" of training for high-pressure sports are over-rated and often don't work..

I don't think that there is much difference between 'liberal' and 'illiberal' methods - the outcome is the same: young women must keep their weight under control if they want to achieve high results. The difference is probably that 'illiberal' methods assume that a coach can take part and responsibility in weight control, whereas 'liberal' methods assume self-control and own responsibility. That is why Daleman's troubles are considered as 'her own', according to some people posting in this thread, whereas Lipnitskaya's troubles are seen as guilt of her coach. Although in fact both have struggled from the same thing - the internalized pressure that is coming from the sport of figure skating at the elite level.

 

[_Lola_]

I wonder if some posters in this board have employment or life’s. Spending all day on gossip boards and hating on skaters is not healthy

Do you mean yourself, first and foremost? I noticed that you have lived in this thread. Each time you don't like someone's argument you post a personal attack message, [not very well] hidden behind the words 'some posters are saying or doing...', like this one above.