U.S. Women [#2]: The Unbearable Lightness of Beijing

[gkelly]

basics such as speed and power all you have to do is watch our Juniors against not only the top Russian girls but the Japanese and Korean girls.

I wonder how much of this is a side effect of the fact that most local rinks in the US are NHL size, whereas most rinks in other countries (except Canada?) tend to be Olympic size.

 

[Karen-W]

I wonder how much of this is a side effect of the fact that most local rinks in the US are NHL size, whereas most rinks in other countries (except Canada?) tend to be Olympic size.

Why would it matter? It isn't affecting our men so why should it affect out women?

 

[Trillian]

However, then you see some other American women as a group and wonder why weren't they taught better basics? The U.S. men seem fine keeping up with the international men when it comes to speed, power, and edging.

I bet there’s some impact from the relative number of girls versus boys in skating. There are so many girls, a fair number of whom probably have some talent, and they have to be pretty far along competitively before it’s obvious that they stand out from their peers. Boys are scarce to begin with, and the really talented ones tend to have people ready to invest time and support (and let’s face it, maybe even $$) from an early age because they’re easier to identify. Given the structure of training and resources and financial support in the U.S., I could see the boys having an advantage in terms of being connected with the right people at the right time, whereas it might take longer for girls to set themselves apart.

 

[clairecloutier]

I now wonder who taught her that Lu Chen jump technique - big beautiful, but so so so prone to review and UR calls...If only her jumps could just be a few degrees in, her career would have looked a lot different.

Another thought is that whatever early coach gave Karen her jump technique may have also given her the amazing skating skills that we all love. (Her and Jeffrey both, maybe?)

On another note, here's an article about Alysa Liu that I just ran across:

Alysa Liu Has Been Through It | Defector

“Oh my god, a lot has changed," Liu said, a bit overwhelmed by the question. “I probably can't even explain it all."

defector.com

Just FYI, I had to submit my email address to read this article.

 

[Karen-W]

Another thought is that whatever early coach gave Karen her jump technique may have also given her the amazing skating skills that we all love. (Her and Jeffrey both, maybe?)

On another note, here's an article about Alysa Liu that I just ran across:

Alysa Liu Has Been Through It | Defector

“Oh my god, a lot has changed," Liu said, a bit overwhelmed by the question. “I probably can't even explain it all."

defector.com

Just FYI, I had to submit my email address to read this article.

Eek... that article... so many more questions than answers.

 

[wickedwitch]

Hasn't there been posters insisting Arthur Liu isn't an overly-interfering skate parent?

“Alysa was very attached to her [Lipetsky] was very much against changing coaches, it was tough,” Arthur said. “It was a process. In the end, when I was pretty adamant about the change and it wasn’t working out with Laura."

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah…. I wonder if he was listening to a lot of voices (including skating fans) who were wanting Liu to leave Lipetsky when her skating failed to develop in way to be competitive with the Russian juniors with regard to basic skating skills and ice coverage.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

I was only half joking before when I thought that Alysa's dad ruined her life with this abrupt coaching change. Now I'm not joking anymore..

I did like what Scali and Abbott were doing with her. She was a much more interesting skater with improved basic skating.

 

[mtnskater]

Maybe having to withdraw from Nationals will be just the kick start Alysa needs to get into a more positive mind set and appreciate the opportunities she is having now to develop and show case her talent at the Olympics!?! We will see.

 

[aml78]

Maybe having to withdraw from Nationals will be just the kick start Alysa needs to get into a more positive mind set and appreciate the opportunities she is having now to develop and show case her talent at the Olympics!?! We will see.

I went back and watched earlier versions of her short program. There are definite changes to the program that made it lose its appeal in my eyes. Even her packaging at nationals was not great. This last change was a mistake and I think will be the last straw in Alysa’s career. I hope she proves me wrong. I just watched her latest IG live. This is a kid who clearly just wants to be a kid, not an elite athlete. The Russians view skating as their job and they get paid for it. It’s a whole different mindset. This attitude of skating being a hobby, given all of the demands of this sport, is not a healthy one. I will not be surprised when she retires after this season. I think it might be best.

 

[centerpt1]

At the very least, Alysa should go to Scali for a choreo tune up. The short was frantic, and missing a lot of choreo

Abbott has said he was working around her past injuries to keep her healthy.

She just looked so much better under Scali/Abbott. Maybe all the silly things like painting their nails in Alysa's costume color, wearing face masks that color, the fist bumps....helped make skating fun for Alysa.

Colorado Springs seems like such a great idea-there are more resources......but Alysa's mental health is important, too.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I agree with @Karen-W . Alysa will need the kindness of the tech panel to score well in the SP. Mariah won't, and her score is a much more known quantity.

Huh? When did Mariah become consistent? I must have missed it.

2021–22 season​

Heading into the Olympic season, Bell prepared new programs for the occasion. For the short program, she recruited RuPaul's Drag Race contestant Cordero Zuckerman to work with Adam Rippon on a stylistic homage to vogue set to the music of Lady Gaga. Her free skate to Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides Now", music Bell had considered using before, was meant to reflect the highs and lows of her career: "Skating to 'Hallelujah' at nationals was an incredible feeling — but I can still know what it was like the following year, to get off the ice and see myself in fifth."[47] However, following her bronze medal showing at the Skating Club of Boston's Cranberry Cup international event and feedback from American officials, she subsequently dropped both programs, reviving her "Hallelujah" program and creating a new short program.[48]

Bell's two Grand Prix assignments were the final two events of the series, starting with the 2021 Internationaux de France, where she placed sixth. She was tenth in the short program and fourth in the free skate.[49] At her second event the following week, the 2021 Rostelecom Cup, Bell was

2021–22 season​

Heading into the Olympic season, Bell prepared new programs for the occasion. For the short program, she recruited RuPaul's Drag Race contestant Cordero Zuckerman to work with Adam Rippon on a stylistic homage to vogue set to the music of Lady Gaga. Her free skate to Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides Now", music Bell had considered using before, was meant to reflect the highs and lows of her career: "Skating to 'Hallelujah' at nationals was an incredible feeling — but I can still know what it was like the following year, to get off the ice and see myself in fifth."[47] However, following her bronze medal showing at the Skating Club of Boston's Cranberry Cup international event and feedback from American officials, she subsequently dropped both programs, reviving her "Hallelujah" program and creating a new short program.[48]

Bell's two Grand Prix assignments were the final two events of the series, starting with the 2021 Internationaux de France, where she placed sixth. She was tenth in the short program and fourth in the free skate.[49] At her second event the following week, the 2021 Rostelecom Cup, Bell was third in the short program despite not landing a triple-triple combination, dropping to fourth after the free skate. She said "technical content is a little bit lower right now, but I plan to put the triple-triple back in later during the season."[50]
in the short program despite not landing a triple-triple combination, dropping to fourth after the free skate. She said "technical content is a little bit lower right now, but I plan to put the triple-triple back in later during the season."[50]

I kind of think Mariah may need more than the kindness of judges. I am not sure where you got your supporting facts.

 

[Marco]

If I was the USFS, I'd take that bet that Bell

I would too, thanks to your brillant analysis.

To think, Karen would most likely be a 2 time Olympian, without ever taking part at the Team Event or bringing home an Olympic medal.

Mariah would most likely be a 1 time Olympian and Olympic Team Event medalist.

How important was the rotation of that last 3loop2toe for Karen.

 

[feraina]

Another thought is that whatever early coach gave Karen her jump technique may have also given her the amazing skating skills that we all love. (Her and Jeffrey both, maybe?)

On another note, here's an article about Alysa Liu that I just ran across:

Alysa Liu Has Been Through It | Defector

“Oh my god, a lot has changed," Liu said, a bit overwhelmed by the question. “I probably can't even explain it all."

defector.com

Just FYI, I had to submit my email address to read this article.

What an interesting and revealing article! We normally never get to find out the real reason behind coaching changes but this article revealed a lot! So the move away from Lipetsky really was to make her a more complete skater, especially building up her components. And this latest switch was because her dad wanted her to train more on ice. It’s mentioned that Scali worked around her injuries to keep her healthy. Maybe that meant not doing as many reps as Author would’ve liked. And now she is getting that extra time… I suppose it might be good that she’s getting a forced break so her body can recover.

And college education is indeed extremely important to her and her dad, as I suspected. It’s honestly hard to justify spending that much money on a sport otherwise - so I expect her to go to college in the fall. Maybe Yale will take her and she can replicate Nathan’s training setup. But she won’t get by without a local coach like he did. Nathan is pretty special that way.

 

[Coco]

Mariah and Nathan posted the same pic of them together as kids on their respective Instagram accounts. Adorable!

 

[jfeiqfwq]

Alysa's scores this season aren't going to get the US any higher in either the SP or the FS than where Mariah or Karen would place. Mariah should get the TE, in my opinion.

Liu beat Kawabe and Higuchi (who will likely do the FS) at Skate Canada, despite her error-ridden free skate. Liu fell on a downgraded 3A, underrotated every jump in the second half, and yet still came out on top. If Alysa is on, she could totally place second.

And like you said, Mariah is not exactly known for consistency, and she has scored as low as 112 this year - which probably would lose to Schizas and maybe even to whichever other country qualifies. I'm sure USFS will keep all of this in mind.

 

[Karen-W]

Liu beat Kawabe and Higuchi (who will likely do the FS) at Skate Canada, despite her error-ridden free skate. Liu fell on a downgraded 3A, underrotated every jump in the second half, and yet still came out on top. If Alysa is on, she could totally place second.

And like you said, Mariah is not exactly known for consistency, and she has scored as low as 112 this year - which probably would lose to Schizas and maybe even to whichever other country qualifies. I'm sure USFS will keep all of this in mind.

No, Liu lost to Higuchi and Kawabe in the FS at SCI. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2122/gpcan2021/SEG004.htm

Not sure why you're looking at Mariah's FS score from Cranberry as a data point when she ditched that program and 3.5 months later scored 129.98 in her GP debut at IdF, then went on to score 140.98 at Rostelecom the next week. Additionally, if you're going to call out Mariah's Cranberry score in August as an example of inconsistency then at least be honest enough to acknowledge that goose-egg Higuchi laid at Cup of Austria in November with her 109.70 FS score.

Just for grins & giggles, let's look at the FS scores of all 4 ladies in question from the GP (and let's toss in Chen and Sakamoto too) and disregard any early season or Challenger comps:

Bell
IdF 129.98
RC 140.98

Chen
SCI 114.67
IdF 129.33

Higuchi
SCI 135.86
IdF 141.04

Kawabe
SCI 133.22
NHK 131.56

Liu
SCI 132.90
NHK 135.78

Sakamoto
SkAm 144.77
NHK 146.78

What reason is there to assume that Liu is going to do appreciably better than Bell in the FS? Bell's GP high is 5+ points higher than Liu's. Additionally, Bell's GP high is a mere .06 shy of Higuchi's GP high, whereas Liu's GP high is .06 shy of Higuchi's GP low. I'd take that bet, if I was the USFS, that Bell is the better bet to beat Higuchi in the TE FS. Furthermore, in the most recent head-to-head matchup, Bell beat Liu in the SP at US Nats. 100%, you bet your bottom dollar, for the money, Bell is actually the best choice for the USA in the TE. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Vagabond]

Hasn't there been posters insisting Arthur Liu isn't an overly-interfering skate parent?

Yes, but whom are you going to believe? Anonymous posters on the Internet, or the man himself?

 

[jfeiqfwq]

What reason is there to assume that Liu is going to do appreciably better than Bell in the FS? Bell's GP high is 5+ points higher than Liu's. Additionally, Bell's GP high is a mere .06 shy of Higuchi's GP high, whereas Liu's GP high is .06 shy of Higuchi's GP low. I'd take that bet, if I was the USFS, that Bell is the better bet to beat Higuchi in the TE FS. Furthermore, in the most recent head-to-head matchup, Bell beat Liu in the SP at US Nats. 100%, you bet your bottom dollar, for the money, Bell is actually the best choice for the USA in the TE. But that's just my opinion.

You disregard Liu's massive score at Lombardia for being an "outlier", but have now decided that Mariah Bell is going to score 140+ no matter what because she got it once. Puh-lease.

She did the exact same program in France perfectly a week earlier and got scored 11 points lower. If anything, Bell's score should be considered the outlier.

And please don't tell me you actually think her nationals Free skate with no 3-3 and two step outs would consistently score 140+ internationally, because it wouldn't.

 

[VGThuy]

You disregard Liu's massive score at Lombardia for being an "outlier", but have now decided that Mariah Bell is going to score 140+ no matter what because she got it once. Puh-lease.

She did the exact same program in France perfectly a week earlier and got scored 11 points lower. If anything, Bell's score should be considered the outlier.

And please don't tell me you actually think her nationals Free skate with no 3-3 and two step outs would consistently score 140+ internationally, because it wouldn't.

I get your point with the last paragraph with the two step outs but Mariah didn’t do a 3/3 at Rostelecom LP either. If a skater has one 3/3 in their arsenal, technically they can match their base value by putting that second triple behind a double axel and get the same base value instead of putting it behind a triple. That’s what Karen Chen does. Mariah at Rosetelcom achieved a 140 in the LP with an error but opted to do two double axels with one being with a 3Flip in a sequence instead of a 3/3. Had she done the 3/3 though, she would have scored 143.60 if she matched the GOE on the 3F-2A seq.

 

[Karen-W]

You disregard Liu's massive score at Lombardia for being an "outlier", but have now decided that Mariah Bell is going to score 140+ no matter what because she got it once. Puh-lease.

She did the exact same program in France perfectly a week earlier and got scored 11 points lower. If anything, Bell's score should be considered the outlier.

And please don't tell me you actually think her nationals Free skate with no 3-3 and two step outs would consistently score 140+ internationally, because it wouldn't.

LOLOLOL. No, what I said was "you're ignoring that big ol' MASSIVE 109.70 that Higuchi scored at Cup of Austria while trying to claim that Bell is inconsistent and shouldn't be used in the TE.

Mariah had 1.6 points higher BV at Rostelecom compared to IdF (her step sequence was called a Lv4 at RC but a L3 at IdF). Personally, I thought her RC performance was stronger, even if on paper looking at the protocols they appear to be similar. She didn't get any edge calls on her 3Zs at RC while she did on both at IdF, and I think that is also reflected in the PCS scores, which went up by about 5 points from IdF to RC. Do I think she'll hit 140+ again in the TE? Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that she can score ~135.

As far as Alysa's Lombardia score, well, I'll just let @tony expound upon all of the overlooked URs by the tech panel, which he was calling out then as problematic, and then point you to the more realistic Nebelhorn score of 136.54, which is still higher than either of her GP scores, if you want to argue about it.

Ultimately, it is about placements in the TE and I don't believe that Alysa is any more or less likely to beat Higuchi than Bell.

 

[jfeiqfwq]

LOLOLOL. No, what I said was "you're ignoring that big ol' MASSIVE 109.70 that Higuchi scored at Cup of Austria while trying to claim that Bell is inconsistent and shouldn't be used in the TE.

Mariah had 1.6 points higher BV at Rostelecom compared to IdF (her step sequence was called a Lv4 at RC but a L3 at IdF). Personally, I thought her RC performance was stronger, even if on paper looking at the protocols they appear to be similar. She didn't get any edge calls on her 3Zs at RC while she did on both at IdF, and I think that is also reflected in the PCS scores, which went up by about 5 points from IdF to RC. Do I think she'll hit 140+ again in the TE? Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that she can score ~135.

As far as Alysa's Lombardia score, well, I'll just let @tony expound upon all of the overlooked URs by the tech panel, which he was calling out then as problematic, and then point you to the more realistic Nebelhorn score of 136.54, which is still higher than either of her GP scores, if you want to argue about it.

Ultimately, it is about placements in the TE and I don't believe that Alysa is any more or less likely to beat Higuchi than Bell.

You have literally said in previous posts how Liu's score of 144 at Lombardia was an outlier, and thus shouldn't be taken in consideration for the team event, but ignore how Bell's seasons best in Russia (which is how you justify using her in the TE) is also clearly an outlier.

And please enlighten me on overlooked calls at Lombardia, because her 3A and 3Lz+3T both fairly received URs. Had those not been called she would've cleared 150+. Her "realistic" score at Nebelhorn was with a single axel. Had she not popped it, it would've been just as massive as Lombardia.

 

[VGThuy]

Looking Karen Chen’s protocols for her various events from 2021 Worlds to GP France, it seems even if she gets generous calls (her flip sometimes gets a ! instead of an e/ one time her Salchow was called rotated) I noticed that she pretty much maxes out from high 134 to mid to high 137 depending on the PCS. However, I also noticed she had a really bad skate and left points on the table at Finlandia but still almost got a 135, something that wouldn’t happen in the GP series for that sort of skate. I saw that she got some extra points on GOE and PCS than she got anywhere else and that was with Valieva, Tuk, Kostornaia, and Hendrickx skating. I wonder if going after the 3/3 in the LP despite making no difference in base value actually helps Karen’s scores…like judges respect it more or something.

If I was Karen, although it’s late in the game and playing around with jump layout may mess with her prep, I would get rid of either the Flip or the Salchow and replace it with a 2A, bring back the 3Lz 3 jump combo with doubles and try to go after both the 3Lz/3Toe and the 2A/3T. I know that means getting rid of one of her 3Loops, which is her money jump, but that second 3Loop/2toe has kind of been iffy for her. I also wonder if practicing the 3Lz/3Toe for both the SP and the LP will just help her nail it more in the SP.

Yes that means only have 6 triples instead of 7 and lowering her BV but it could improve her GOE and overall TES. Plus with possibly less calls at least getting rid of a possible E or ! if she opts out of the flip, and possibly less ! and > on the protocol sheet, it may also build up her PCS as well and give the image of a cleaner program. It’ll be possible to score in the 140 range with that layout (a hurdle she can’t seem to cross), and it’ll help minimize her calls while having her practice the 3Lz/3Toe more in run-throughs of both programs.

 

[Jarrett]

they're not on wrong edges and they're not under...

Sure, Jan.

 

[VGThuy]

Sure, Jan.

Hey man, I’m going by the judging and calling. Believe me, I see the flaws too but for some reason they’re ok with that sort of technique.

 

[thvu]

You disregard Liu's massive score at Lombardia for being an "outlier", but have now decided that Mariah Bell is going to score 140+ no matter what because she got it once. Puh-lease.

She did the exact same program in France perfectly a week earlier and got scored 11 points lower. If anything, Bell's score should be considered the outlier.

And please don't tell me you actually think her nationals Free skate with no 3-3 and two step outs would consistently score 140+ internationally, because it wouldn't.

Your lack of understanding of calling and the sport in general is fairly obvious. Maybe not get all your knowledge from Twitter?

Your criticisms of Bell are ridiculous. You don’t take into account context at all. You cherry pick instead of looking at trends. It’s like you don’t know Bell is one of only two US skaters to beat Zagitova in any portion of a senior competition. And Bell didn’t need to do it at a Worlds where Zagitova fell all over the place. 6 triple skates score over 140 when the skater has quality elements. Bell is a GOE skater. She has great PCS. I’m not sure what’s so hard about this for you.

 

[UGG]

That latest article about Alysa is really cringe worthy. Between the comments from her dad, her conception, doing this for “Little Alysa” omg. It’s like her dad sucked the joy out of anything.

In general, I cannot imagine, as a female, the media continuously speaking about changes to my body. Back in the day when MK and Tara were competing, there was zero social media and I just don’t remember anyone ever speaking this way about young girls- although I’m the same age as them so maybe I just didn’t realize? I really think this sport needs to rethink 13 and 14 year olds compete as seniors at US Nationals. It isn’t healthy. No wonder athletes have eating disorders. It’s like “oh you were phenomenal when you were 4’9 and 70 lbs…what happened”

This hype of these very young children has to stop. Caroline Zhang is a perfect example. Obviously at 110 pounds, you will skate different than 70 pounds. No one remains 70 pounds. Take the friggin focus off of puberty. Yes I realize a quad is an athletic feat but no one remains 70 pounds. Why the hype?

 

[On My Own]

Another thought is that whatever early coach gave Karen her jump technique may have also given her the amazing skating skills that we all love. (Her and Jeffrey both, maybe?)

You mean Buttle with "Jeffrey"?

 

[AYS]

....

In general, I cannot imagine, as a female, the media continuously speaking about changes to my body. Back in the day when MK and Tara were competing, there was zero social media and I just don’t remember anyone ever speaking this way about young girls- although I’m the same age as them so maybe I just didn’t realize? I really think this sport needs to rethink 13 and 14 year olds compete as seniors at US Nationals. It isn’t healthy. No wonder athletes have eating disorders. It’s like “oh you were phenomenal when you were 4’9 and 70 lbs…what happened”

....

Obviously it wasn't as widespread because of no social media, but it has always been talked about quite publicly.

Frank Carroll himself commented on it more than once, ie as recounted in this article:

Growing up, falling down

www.baltimoresun.com

Just before the Winter Games, then-coach Frank Carroll said growing pains gave Kwan "a physical feeling of uncertainty."

"I think Michelle's body changed tremendously last year, although she doesn't realize it," he told reporters. "I mean, she has a woman's body, and, you know, a very beautiful body, when before last year, she just had a kid's body."

 

[VGThuy]

That latest article about Alysa is really cringe worthy. Between the comments from her dad, her conception, doing this for “Little Alysa” omg. It’s like her dad sucked the joy out of anything.

In general, I cannot imagine, as a female, the media continuously speaking about changes to my body. Back in the day when MK and Tara were competing, there was zero social media and I just don’t remember anyone ever speaking this way about young girls- although I’m the same age as them so maybe I just didn’t realize? I really think this sport needs to rethink 13 and 14 year olds compete as seniors at US Nationals. It isn’t healthy. No wonder athletes have eating disorders. It’s like “oh you were phenomenal when you were 4’9 and 70 lbs…what happened”

This hype of these very young children has to stop. Caroline Zhang is a perfect example. Obviously at 110 pounds, you will skate different than 70 pounds. No one remains 70 pounds. Take the friggin focus off of puberty. Yes I realize a quad is an athletic feat but no one remains 70 pounds. Why the hype?

During the 1996-97 season when Kwan was having some hardship, which turned out to be due to her boots more than anything as Frank even later acknowledged decades later where she was even falling on her outside edges on her spirals, the media and fans kept going on about Kwan's body changes and going through puberty. Kwan herself said that whole period was more embarrassing for her than anything as she was 16 and people kept harping and talking about her body. Like they were observing her body with a microscope. It's already a self-conscious time in any teen's life, but imagine adults in sports media and the rest of the skating community talking about it publicly.